The Armour Archive

no, not the movie... the concept.

If I get killed in a melee, I'm walking out. To all the guys that kept saying "If you'd fall down you wouldn't get hit"... thanks, and I appreciate it, but I'd rather take the beating and walk off the field than voluntarily put myself in a position to cause somebody else (or me) a serious injury. Especially when the marshals announce that there will not be any holds called to let the dead out.

Just somehing to think about... I'd much rather kill somebody and HELP him through the scrum than kill him, watch him fall over, and then get trampled.

For me this depends on where I am in the line.

If I am in an open area in a field battle, I will probably raise my weapon and walk off. Ditto for being the back of a line during a choke point battle.

If I am in the middle of the melee, surrounded and in a press and I take one, I will probably just fall there.

Logic being if I can get out without screwing up someone else I am outa there. If my leaving is going to cause my guys to have issues throwing or moving out of the way, I am not gonna do it. I wouldn't like guys doing it to me.

Ogedei

And of course, some people try to walk through "enemy" lines even though they're dead.

People doing that will most likely get struck until they fall down.

I try to get to ground safely. In the presses at pennsic that frequently means curling up fetal with my legs underneath me rather then sprawled out like a corpse that has "died defensively" The amount I may interfere in battle with being higher is mitigated my not being as much of a tripping hazard and my armor can take a few shots if I'm mistaked for a kneeling combatant. Armor can do that.

I spent a chunk of time durning holds trying to carefully extricate people from the human jenga pile that results from fighting in tight areas. There is WAY too much danger from being stepped on or rolled over in the pile of dead bodies. Standing there while person A screams in pain because person B is kneeing on a leg that wants to go backwards or is driving person C's cop wing into soft tissue.

I personally dislike people who disrupt battle by walking away dead. If it can be done by stepping/rolling off the edge of a bridge then great. If your line is thin and stepping back leaves you in the clear to walk off the field, great. If dead means walking sideways through a spear duel forcing people to lift and relocate weapons... IMHO poor sportmanship.

My opinions on the matter are of course worth what was apid for them.

Sean

Similar feelings here. I will back away (BACK away, not turn my back) from the engagement (while loudly acknowledging the blow and raising my weapon overhead) if the ranks are thin enough behind me to allow it. I will die in place as defensively as I can, otherwise. Which I choose to do is probably affected by the weapons I am holding, too - I feel safer dropping with a shield than with a pole arm, for example.

I was actively directing people who were "dead" BACK toward their own lines, instead of allowing them to move through mine, unless it was someone who had penetrated the line and was 4 or 5 ranks in the backfield - I directed them out the back of our ranks (Some tried to move FORWARD into the active combat area).

Moving through an active enemy line when you are dead is cheating.

I have the same opinion of people who take a leg as a death or a wound depending on the tactical advantage. Pick one way or the other and stick with it.

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blackbow wrote:no, not the movie... the concept.

If I get killed in a melee, I'm walking out. To all the guys that kept saying "If you'd fall down you wouldn't get hit"... thanks, and I appreciate it, but I'd rather take the beating and walk off the field than voluntarily put myself in a position to cause somebody else (or me) a serious injury. Especially when the marshals announce that there will not be any holds called to let the dead out.

Just somehing to think about... I'd much rather kill somebody and HELP him through the scrum than kill him, watch him fall over, and then get trampled.

Agreed. I do expect to take some hits from time to time walking away, and I'm comfortable with that. A lot more comfortable than spending who knows how long in the dirt, turning into a speed bump for the next big charge.

I am not going down in the scrum for any reason. I back through my own lines or stand in place if the line is moving past me. If I get hit a half dozen more times that is preferable to being stomped by a giant mutant.

Nissan Maxima wrote:If I get hit a half dozen more times that is preferable to being stomped by a giant mutant.

...or to going 'Under the Pile'.

Yup.. I wound up under a couple of 400 lb guys once. I'll never, ever, do it again. I literally could not MOVE, and some other douchebag was STANDING on my helmet with both feet to throw shots. Not only did it deform the helmet, but very nearly deformed my neck.

At Pennsic, I stabbed a guy in the face. He was pissed. He said "I'm f*cking dead asshole, can't you see my sword over my head" and had his shield up, sword raised in a hanging guard walking towards me.
Note to guy. You are on an open field. You had your shield up in front of you. You had your sword above your head...yes, in a hanging guard. You walked directly toward a person who was engaged in combat with another line. Because of this, you set off the "kill them" radar.

When I die, I fall down. I have good armor. Most of the time I get ganked in a place were there is a pile. I've never had a problem with it.

I used to fall down.
Until one day I was 3 or 4th back and as those died before me lay down, and those behind me pushed.. I ended up being pushed over, not being able to bend my legs, a pile in front of me, and some jackass actually tried to climb over me to get to the fight.
Luckily a hold was called and the dead cleared.
When I didn't clear out the guy behind me told me I could roll off the field.
I told him that I wasn't dead! I hadn't been able to get past the pile he was trying to push me over to get to the fight!

I felt really bad for the person on the bottom of the 4 person pile, with some guy trying to push a 5th onto it!

Heck, I've seen a guy walking at me in the "dead posture" - sword above his head, shield down, walking toward me - when I asked if he was dead, he took a step forward and hit me.

Complete cheeseball move.

Leo Medii wrote:At Pennsic, I stabbed a guy in the face. He was pissed. He said "I'm f*cking dead asshole, can't you see my sword over my head" and had his shield up, sword raised in a hanging guard walking towards me.
Note to guy. You are on an open field. You had your shield up in front of you. You had your sword above your head...yes, in a hanging guard. You walked directly toward a person who was engaged in combat with another line. Because of this, you set off the "kill them" radar.

When I die, I fall down. I have good armor. Most of the time I get ganked in a place were there is a pile. I've never had a problem with it.

Ironically enough I had this exact same conv with calontir at Gulf Wars. I will walk through enemy lines if it's the easiest way off the field for everybody involved. However, as I told calontir back then, if anybody on my team tried to take advantage of it, I'd kill them myself.

@ Arngrim - if somebody hits me while I'm walking out I just take the beating and keep walking.

@ Sean: I won't voluntarily cut through an entire line of spears, no. Generally when I die I'm through all that. Basically when I die I try to disrupt the minimum number of people involved.

Interestingly enough, nobody's ever fussed about me being dead and getting out of their way. Maybe it's because they realize that I'm too big to conveniently step on.

Blackbow

Arngrim wrote:And of course, some people try to walk through "enemy" lines even though they're dead.

People doing that will most likely get struck until they fall down.

Sean: "I personally dislike people who disrupt battle by walking away dead. If it can be done by stepping/rolling off the edge of a bridge then great. If your line is thin and stepping back leaves you in the clear to walk off the field, great. If dead means walking sideways through a spear duel forcing people to lift and relocate weapons... IMHO poor sportmanship. "

I almost always back out if it's possible and will do my utmost to never interfere with the flow of battle because I weigh next to nothing and I'm not taking a career/game ending injury because of a decision to play speedbump.
With that said, if it's not possible to back out, I will fall and turtle up but I avoid it like the plague.

Problem with the "pile ups" is that the group who bitches that it happens one time, bitches that a hold is called the next - because the pile BENEFITED THEM the second time.


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If i'm clear, and get gakked, i put the butt of my spear on the top of my head, the tip on the ground, hold it with one hand, and walk away with the other hand raised.

if i get taken down in the scrum, well.. that's what armor is for.

i don't fall down, i get taken down.

I salute and take a knee in tourney, too. falling over just looks all sorts of wrong to me, usually. (exceptions being if i'm legged and get clocked in the head, actually get knocked over, etc)

The older I get, the less inclined I am to lay down on the ground and have to climb back up again. I realize this may harm the ambiance of the affair, with bodies strewn all over the field, but I tend to think that we are not fighting "to the death" but rather, in a tournament, fighting until we are incapacitated or until we give up. Some people who are incapacitated will fall to the ground, others will stagger off the field.

If someone mistakes me for being alive, they are free to hit me. I wear enough armor that I feel like I can pretty much take any blow without fear of getting hurt.

Steve

Sometimes I go down defensively and as safely as I can manage in the scrum, sometimes I walk out with weapon reversed. Depends on what is safest and least disruptive of the overall fight at the time.

If the press prevents either I tell those around me (loudly) that I'm dead and can't fall, and try not to affect the flow of the fight until I can safely fall or leave.

The guy yelling "DEAD!! DEAD!!" while still shoving into a shield wall is annoying.

If I can clear out without disrupting the flow of the battle, I will, If I have to go down it will usually be to as small a ball as a 6’2â€

Baron Eirik wrote:The guy yelling "DEAD!! DEAD!!" while still shoving into a shield wall is annoying.

Agreed, but remember that sometimes, they might not have any choice... I've been a "dead body" before, unable to go down or get out because of the press, being used as a sort of human battering ram by the mass of bodies behind me pushing me forward. This is generally not a fun experience for the human battering ram.

The "buried" comments above reminded me of an interesting anecdote. My first Pennsic, I'd been in armor about four months, been to a few smaller events... I was wearing a full Dark Victory kit (this was before my Archive years), and was pretty glad to be wearing it afterward. I got piled on four deep at one point, literally three men in armor piled above me, with me tucked under my shield on the ground. The plates locked against each other and just...held...all that weight off my body.

It was still something of a scary experience for a novice fighter, although I walked away uninjured with a new respect for my armor! That said, most of the stuff I wear today would have left me squashed like a bug under that mess.

Our "scrum" and "pile o' dead" situations are probably the most dangerous ones we face in SCA fighting. And it ain't the rattan that's going to break us.

Owyn wrote:

Baron Eirik wrote:The guy yelling "DEAD!! DEAD!!" while still shoving into a shield wall is annoying.

Agreed, but remember that sometimes, they might not have any choice... I've been a "dead body" before, unable to go down or get out because of the press, being used as a sort of human battering ram by the mass of bodies behind me pushing me forward. This is generally not a fun experience for the human battering ram.

Carried along by the mass is not the situation I mean, it's the guy actively still charging while declaring that he's dead.

Baron Eirik wrote:

Owyn wrote:

Baron Eirik wrote:The guy yelling "DEAD!! DEAD!!" while still shoving into a shield wall is annoying.

Agreed, but remember that sometimes, they might not have any choice... I've been a "dead body" before, unable to go down or get out because of the press, being used as a sort of human battering ram by the mass of bodies behind me pushing me forward. This is generally not a fun experience for the human battering ram.

Carried along by the mass is not the situation I mean, it's the guy actively still charging while declaring that he's dead.

we were trained to "Die offensively" whenever possible. We went down.. but there was a good chance we were gonna fall INTO your line when we did.. no steps, no moving forward.. just.. falling.

It's a sneaky trick, but it works. Or you get kicked in the nuts with steel tips. That happened too.

Ogedei wrote:If I am in an open area in a field battle, I will probably raise my weapon and walk off. Ditto for being the back of a line during a choke point battle.

If I am in the middle of the melee, surrounded and in a press and I take one, I will probably just fall there.

Pretty much what I do. Whatever seems safest (and sometines that's hitting the deck.)

Baron Eirik wrote:

Owyn wrote:

Baron Eirik wrote:The guy yelling "DEAD!! DEAD!!" while still shoving into a shield wall is annoying.

Agreed, but remember that sometimes, they might not have any choice... I've been a "dead body" before, unable to go down or get out because of the press, being used as a sort of human battering ram by the mass of bodies behind me pushing me forward. This is generally not a fun experience for the human battering ram.

Carried along by the mass is not the situation I mean, it's the guy actively still charging while declaring that he's dead.

Had this happen once where the guy kept pushing and pushing and pushing. Every time I hit him he said "I''m dead, I'm dead". After the fifth or sixth time, I told him to fall down, stop moving, or turn around.
So....he told me his commanders told him to do that. If killed push through the enemy shield wall to get out. Needless to say, he didn't get that far.

I've run into that before but it's usually pretty easy to tell when the guy gives up and stops pushing. I do that all the time...pushing till I die, then I stop pushing. After your opponent feels the lack of resistance they usually have a clue.

Blackbow

Baron Eirik wrote:

Owyn wrote:

Baron Eirik wrote:The guy yelling "DEAD!! DEAD!!" while still shoving into a shield wall is annoying.

Agreed, but remember that sometimes, they might not have any choice... I've been a "dead body" before, unable to go down or get out because of the press, being used as a sort of human battering ram by the mass of bodies behind me pushing me forward. This is generally not a fun experience for the human battering ram.

Carried along by the mass is not the situation I mean, it's the guy actively still charging while declaring that he's dead.

I almost had my shoulder dislocated from being in "the pile". Never again unless I can avoid it.

I put the shield down and sword basket on my forehead. Never been hit while "dead".

Whether I fall where I'm hit or bail out depends pretty much on the specific circumstances.

Couple of years back I found myself at the bottom of a pileup in a castle doorway with no chance to support my helm and my neck getting cranked pretty uncomfortably. I didn't much like that, but there also was no acceptable option in that tightpacked situation but to fall down and wait for either a hold or the press to pass by so I could get out. I'll be trying to avoid that situation in the future - but not by refusing to fall down. I'll make an effort to avoid getting caught in quite that intense a push and more effort to support my helm if I do get caught there.

Pushing through opposing lines after you're dead ? As someone else has noted, that one is cheating, plain and simple. It's one thing if the melee is loose and flowing and you can walk out through people on whatever side without interfering, another thing entirely to press through the shieldwall that you failed to break while "alive".

Leo Medii wrote:So....he told me his commanders told him to do that. If killed push through the enemy shield wall to get out. Needless to say, he didn't get that far.

This is shameful conduct and sadly all too common on the field.

Had someone try it on me this year - I got him (a smaller fighter) up in the air on my shield and used him as "alblative armor" as I pushed back into his lines. I think he took 2 shots intended for me.



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Diglach mac Cein wrote:Had someone try it on me this year - I got him (a smaller fighter) up in the air on my shield and used him as "alblative armor" as I pushed back into his lines. I think he took 2 shots intended for me..

That sounds something like poetic justice.

Really haven't seen this that I can recall - intentionally trying to bust through the lines? Maybe I have seen it, didn't hear the "I'm dead", and simply continued applying rattan to forehead until he decided falling down was the appropriate response.

Seems like the best bet to me.

I'm not a tremendously large person, and I've been at the bottom of a few pileups that have been extremely uncomfortable. Despite that (and fighting often with a spear), I'll still fall down if it seems the least disruptive and easiest way to clear out of the way. In a bridge battle, I'll fall and then wait for a static moment to bail over the side, moving low so as not to interfere with pikes. Like some of the previous posters, I try to do whatever is least disruptive for those still fighting.

Pileups can be dangerous, but, in all honesty, this is part of why we have holds -- if someone is put in a position that they deem dangerous or if they notice someone else in distress, they should call a hold immediately. I've only done it twice at the bottom of pileups, one for my arm being bent the wrong way and once for a cop pushing on the seam in my gorget hard enough to put two vertebrae out. It took me a good while to get over the unwillingness to cry hold on my own behalf (not wanting to be the female voice reinforcing a stereotype), but it's part of our responsibility to safeguard ourselves and others on the field.

Walking out - I've been cracked hard enough in the back of the head to dent my helm and concuss me. I've also been overrun hard and kicked in the head. Overall, I've had better luck on the bottom of pileups - at least there I can generally get in a safe position.

YMMV,
Jimena

I don't really care if you fall down or not, just don't bitch about getting cranked because someone thought you didn't take the shot. I tell guys I am training to hit them until they fall down(or get out of range I suppose).

That being said, I don't always fall down either. It all depends on the situation and there are plenty of them, as plenty of people have mentioned above.

It has been awhile since I've been to Pennsic, but last time I was there, I saw a lot of guys pushing things a little too far: Pushing into the opposing line LONG after you are dead, walking around with your sword above your head so people think you are dead, and other miscellaneous douchebaggery. Nothing is ever done to these guys, so it just continues, and in my opinion has gotten worse over the years. I wish the marshals would yank those guys and make them sit out the next battle or something. Everyone is wishy-washy and doesn't want to ruin anyone's vacation so they let it continue. It is sad.

Jurgen

I usually don't fall down. Sometimes I will drop to my knees and stop fighting. I think it's perfectly fine to NOT fall however, you void any right to not get hit further. I think Geoffrey Scott said this Pennsic "if I hit you and you take it, you had better make SOME kind of change in posture - stop pushing, stop fighting, fall down, act dead-- SOMETHING -- or you are going to be hit more".

In the 2nd castle siege a few of us manage to jam our way nearly INTO the castle. Of course we were completely s-t-u-c-k unable to move or push or attack or defend ourselves. For a moment there I thought I *might* get the air squeezed out of me. Eventually someone stabbed me in the face and I called good. The other guys were pretty jammed up in there as well. Eventually a hold was called and we (the dead ones) squeezed out into the castle. I think had a hold not been called I would have tried to squeeze out through the "enemy" lines - I do this when I get killed almost in the backfield and the distance is shorter. As long as I don't actually disrupt the fighting.

So does anybody's opinion change when you hear the marshals say that there won't be any holds to get dead out?

Blackbow

widow montoya wrote:I'm not a tremendously large person, and I've been at the bottom of a few pileups that have been extremely uncomfortable. Despite that (and fighting often with a spear), I'll still fall down if it seems the least disruptive and easiest way to clear out of the way. In a bridge battle, I'll fall and then wait for a static moment to bail over the side, moving low so as not to interfere with pikes. Like some of the previous posters, I try to do whatever is least disruptive for those still fighting.

Pileups can be dangerous, but, in all honesty, this is part of why we have holds -- if someone is put in a position that they deem dangerous or if they notice someone else in distress, they should call a hold immediately. I've only done it twice at the bottom of pileups, one for my arm being bent the wrong way and once for a cop pushing on the seam in my gorget hard enough to put two vertebrae out. It took me a good while to get over the unwillingness to cry hold on my own behalf (not wanting to be the female voice reinforcing a stereotype), but it's part of our responsibility to safeguard ourselves and others on the field.

Walking out - I've been cracked hard enough in the back of the head to dent my helm and concuss me. I've also been overrun hard and kicked in the head. Overall, I've had better luck on the bottom of pileups - at least there I can generally get in a safe position.

YMMV,
Jimena