The Armour Archive

just getting back into SCA, did 10+ yrs heavy and want to look into the newer cut and thrust stuff. looking for earlyish, late 1400- mid 1500s armor for this fight

Not so much armour as padded clothing. So, the blunt skinny of it is, as long as you pass a "punch test" your gear can look like anything.

Unlike the rattan field, there are not alot of merchants making cut and thrust gear. Since most of it is layered fabric, people usually just make it themselves.

InsaneIrish wrote:Not so much armour as padded clothing. So, the blunt skinny of it is, as long as you pass a "punch test" your gear can look like anything.

Unlike the rattan field, there are not alot of merchants making cut and thrust gear. Since most of it is layered fabric, people usually just make it themselves.

C&T is a little more than just passing the punch test. SCA conventions require some padding on elbows as well as additional throat protection (on my quick glance at the rules)

Your kingdom may require more.

Ogedei wrote:
C&T is a little more than just passing the punch test. SCA conventions require some padding on elbows as well as additional throat protection (on my quick glance at the rules)

Your kingdom may require more.

Well, added protection above Society Rapier armour standards are:

Elbow and Knee pads
rigid protection for the back of the head


My original post was directed specifically to the "armour" question. C&T does not have armour requirements above Society Rapier requirements. The bulk of 'armour' required for C&T is only padded fabric. So, what is required is a 12" x 12" sample of the layered fabric to be punched tested. If that sample passes and you follow the required "cover" requirements for garb, then you can make pretty much any type of fighting garb you want.

Here you go - from the C&T Tourney at Pennsic.

Mine is the buff coat and lobster tail. His is a pretty nice early 16th c. rig.

I'm standing in Porta di Ferro Stretta, seconds before he swung really fast and hard and flipped on the Knight switch. I hit him square on the helm with a lovely mandritto tramazzone sgualembrato with a right foot pass back.

Here you go - from the C&T Tourney at Pennsic.

Mine is the buff coat and lobster tail. His is a pretty nice early 16th c. rig.

I'm standing in Porta di Ferro Stretta, seconds before he swung really fast and hard and flipped on the Knight switch. I hit him square on the helm with a lovely mandritto tramazzone sgualembrato with a right foot pass back.

Beautiful Buff coat! You make it?

I did. It's not heavy enough for a real buff coat, though. My new one will be 9 oz. moosehide with at least half sleeves.

Is your lighter one (current one) nice for regular fencing? ie. still feel draws and touches through it?

Where did you find the pattern?

sorry for taking thread off topic.

I just bought one of the Icefalcon rapier helmets. To my eye, the style is generally reminiscent of some ca.-1500 long-visored sallets. How upscale a look are you seeking? I saw some rapier fighters at Pennsic with really spiffy male gowns of the early to mid-16th century. I imagine you could also do a brigandine if it's not too rigid.

Flittie wrote:I just bought one of the Icefalcon rapier helmets. To my eye, the style is generally reminiscent of some ca.-1500 long-visored sallets. How upscale a look are you seeking? I saw some rapier fighters at Pennsic with really spiffy male gowns of the early to mid-16th century. I imagine you could also do a brigandine if it's not too rigid.

Is this what you got?

http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon ... 418-p.html

AlvarGuerrero wrote:Is your lighter one (current one) nice for regular fencing? ie. still feel draws and touches through it?

Where did you find the pattern?

sorry for taking thread off topic.

I don't use it for rapier anymore, just C&T - mail and linen is cooler - but it was fine. I based it on RH's 1630 doublet pattern, with modifications from extant patterns available in a couple of places. Notably, the right angle at the top of the side seam that helps reduce the arm hole. You could use the 1640's doublet pattern too.

I wear a muddled earylish 16th cen breastplate w/ tassets to cover some medical concerns right now. I wear that over a linen arming coat that's tested to SCA Rapier/C&T armor standards. I've worn 3/4 plate before for C&T just for fun. You can definitely feel cuts and thrusts, you just need to practice enough to adjust your calibration. Sometimes you "hear" them as much as feel them.

Irish, yes, that's the one. I went to the Icefalcon booth during Midnight Madness hoping that he'd have one of the fencing helms so I could see it in person. He did, and when I realized it was actually small enough to fit me, I got my husband to buy it for me as my anniversary/birthday/Christmas present. Best part was that I was being served by Duke Logan, so I got to meet him in person.

Irish I am in springfield, do you know anyone doing CT down here? when and where is your fighting practice? I have done 2-3 sessions with some non SCA recreators around here, never felt in danger just under armored with them. they are working on Silvers stuff

Dafid McLean wrote:Irish I am in springfield, do you know anyone doing CT down here? when and where is your fighting practice? I have done 2-3 sessions with some non SCA recreators around here, never felt in danger just under armored with them. they are working on Silvers stuff

Currently I don't believe there is an authorized instructor in the Springfield area. I know there are some interested parties down there, but the program has not been able to train any of them yet.

Right now, only authorized instructors can hold official Calontir Steel Practices.

I believe you are the guy who emailed me right? I responded, you should get signed up on our Yahoo group for more information.

InsaneIrish wrote:
Well, added protection above Society Rapier armour standards are:

Elbow and Knee pads
rigid protection for the back of the head


My original post was directed specifically to the "armour" question. C&T does not have armour requirements above Society Rapier requirements. The bulk of 'armour' required for C&T is only padded fabric. So, what is required is a 12" x 12" sample of the layered fabric to be punched tested. If that sample passes and you follow the required "cover" requirements for garb, then you can make pretty much any type of fighting garb you want.

Minor quibble:

Elbow pads, yes. Not Knee pads.

Torso armour doesn't need to be padded. Most people just use enough layers to pass the punch test without any padding in between.

Note: I'm a n00b. Take what follows with that in mind.

As others have noted, you really don't need all that much armour. A rapier helmet, gorget, elbow pads, cup and rapier-legal clothing/gloves is all one needs to start.

On the advice of more-experienced practitioners and practical experience, I advise more than just 'SCA rapier armour with elbow pads and rigid armor for the back of the head'. I've taken shots to my elbows and wrists, all entirely due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time, not my opponents.

Ow.

I'll be strapping a simple cop to the Hexpads I wear over my elbows, at least to the left elbow (should I start Lichtenauer or other longsword play, I'll do both). Had I thought about it, I would have gotten a pair of pads with the plastic over the point of the elbow. I'm getting some forearm guards in the coming weeks, just to protect the ulna; I despair of figuring out something (other than a gauntlet) to protect the styloid processes. If I can get a bridle gauntlet, I'll be set.

For the same reason, I wear knee pads. There's far less chance of getting dinged in the knee in C&T, but a smack on the patella always sucks, even when it's a rare incident.

I'm also in the process of building a buff coat of my own. Luckily, we have a pattern which is perfectly suited to the task.

Cheers,

Bob

Dauyd wrote:
Minor quibble:

Elbow pads, yes. Not Knee pads.

Torso armour doesn't need to be padded. Most people just use enough layers to pass the punch test without any padding in between.

Knee pads are required in Calontir Steel.

I was considering layered garb as "padded".

From what i gather we hit harder and faster up here in my corner of An Tir. that said this is my cut and thrust kit as of a year or so ago. since that pic was taken I've swapped to an Alchem curved blade with turkic hilt and swapped a lot of the maille out for riveted maille and i;m about half way through adding sleeves to cover my upper arms.


I'm probably over armoured, but i can still feel almost everything that hits me, the exception being when something hits the tassets if they aren't in contact with my body, but i can usually call them by sound anyways.

Armourkris wrote:From what i gather we hit harder and faster up here in my corner of An Tir. that said this is my cut and thrust kit as of a year or so ago. since that pic was taken I've swapped to an Alchem curved blade with turkic hilt and swapped a lot of the maille out for riveted maille and i;m about half way through adding sleeves to cover my upper arms.


I'm probably over armoured, but i can still feel almost everything that hits me, the exception being when something hits the tassets if they aren't in contact with my body, but i can usually call them by sound anyways.

If someone hits the tassets when they aren't in contact with your body, why do you have to call it? Shouldn't that be just as if they had swiped a couple inches in front of your body?

zachos wrote:

Armourkris wrote:From what i gather we hit harder and faster up here in my corner of An Tir. that said this is my cut and thrust kit as of a year or so ago. since that pic was taken I've swapped to an Alchem curved blade with turkic hilt and swapped a lot of the maille out for riveted maille and i;m about half way through adding sleeves to cover my upper arms.


I'm probably over armoured, but i can still feel almost everything that hits me, the exception being when something hits the tassets if they aren't in contact with my body, but i can usually call them by sound anyways.

If someone hits the tassets when they aren't in contact with your body, why do you have to call it? Shouldn't that be just as if they had swiped a couple inches in front of your body?

Agreed

zachos wrote: If someone hits the tassets when they aren't in contact with your body, why do you have to call it? Shouldn't that be just as if they had swiped a couple inches in front of your body?

Depends on the angle and depth of the blow.

brewer wrote:I'm also in the process of building a buff coat of my own. Luckily, we have a pattern which is perfectly suited to the task.

Cheers,

Bob

Isn't that a little late? or are the extant examples of that style earlier?

I'm assuming this is for cut and thrust. All I can say about it is this guy's armor totally reminds me of the clock-work nazi, Kroenen, from Hellboy.
Makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck whenever I see this pic.

-Cian

sha-ul wrote:

brewer wrote:I'm also in the process of building a buff coat of my own. Luckily, we have a pattern which is perfectly suited to the task.

Isn't that a little late? or are the extant examples of that style earlier?

Yeah, it's a little late. My research leads me to believe buff-coats become relatively common right round the death of Elizabeth (remember I'm decidedly Anglo-centric). We know they were worn by the Trained Bands of London in the first quarter of C17, and cavalry were issued them in ECW.

Cheers,

Bob

Cian of Storvik wrote:I'm assuming this is for cut and thrust. All I can say about it is this guy's armor totally reminds me of the clock-work nazi, Kroenen, from Hellboy.
Makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck whenever I see this pic.

-Cian

I love this guy's burg, do have any idea where it came from/who made it?

brewer wrote:Yeah, it's a little late. My research leads me to believe buff-coats become relatively common right round the death of Elizabeth (remember I'm decidedly Anglo-centric). We know they were worn by the Trained Bands of London in the first quarter of C17, and cavalry were issued them in ECW.

You can see (sleeveless) precursors of the buff coat in the Mary Rose book, and those are from mid-16th C, and follow the lines of the civilian jerkins.

I'd have to find all my demi-lancer research (or maybe St. Gordon Frye will jump in here miraculously), but I seem to recall mention of something similar to the buff coat being issued at the very end of Elizabeth's reign.

I know (and know that Bob and Kass know already) that for the troops sent to Ireland, at least, there were a lot of issues with troops consistently "losing" their equipment rather than cart it around Ireland in crappy weather conditions.

brewer wrote:

sha-ul wrote:

brewer wrote:I'm also in the process of building a buff coat of my own. Luckily, we have a pattern which is perfectly suited to the task.

Isn't that a little late? or are the extant examples of that style earlier?

Yeah, it's a little late. My research leads me to believe buff-coats become relatively common right round the death of Elizabeth (remember I'm decidedly Anglo-centric). We know they were worn by the Trained Bands of London in the first quarter of C17, and cavalry were issued them in ECW.

Cheers,

Bob

do you think they would have been in use in '95 or so? if so what would it look like?

brewer wrote:Yeah, it's a little late. My research leads me to believe buff-coats become relatively common right round the death of Elizabeth (remember I'm decidedly Anglo-centric). We know they were worn by the Trained Bands of London in the first quarter of C17, and cavalry were issued them in ECW.

If you're willing to go to my historical domain, you can get away with it 13-14c. Say, 1350ish while using a longsword.

zachos wrote:

Armourkris wrote:From what i gather we hit harder and faster up here in my corner of An Tir. that said this is my cut and thrust kit as of a year or so ago. since that pic was taken I've swapped to an Alchem curved blade with turkic hilt and swapped a lot of the maille out for riveted maille and i;m about half way through adding sleeves to cover my upper arms.


I'm probably over armoured, but i can still feel almost everything that hits me, the exception being when something hits the tassets if they aren't in contact with my body, but i can usually call them by sound anyways.

If someone hits the tassets when they aren't in contact with your body, why do you have to call it? Shouldn't that be just as if they had swiped a couple inches in front of your body?

No.
We don't try to strike each other, we try to strike the armour of our opponents. If you start calling "high on the helm" "on the tasset" etc. you are no longer playing the same game as your opponent.

Russ Mitchell wrote:

brewer wrote:Yeah, it's a little late. My research leads me to believe buff-coats become relatively common right round the death of Elizabeth (remember I'm decidedly Anglo-centric). We know they were worn by the Trained Bands of London in the first quarter of C17, and cavalry were issued them in ECW.

If you're willing to go to my historical domain, you can get away with it 13-14c. Say, 1350ish while using a longsword.

Russ,
Are they leather kaftans? or more tunic like? I've seen some pictures reenactors in Magyar clothes with small round shields, small enough to be bucklers. With the right sword, say a curved Alchem blade, that could be kickass impression.

sha-ul wrote:do you think they would have been in use in '95 or so? if so what would it look like?

It's impossible to say. As Saritor pointed out, one can find what appear to be precursors quite early in C16. There is, however, argument as to whether or not the garment in question is armour or just an outer layer which happens to be made of leather. Just 'cos it's leather doesn't mean it's armour!

Suffice it to say, the garment I think of when I mentally picture "buff-coat" is decidedly 1600 at the earliest.

YMMV.

Cheers!

Bob

Ekkehard wrote:Are they leather kaftans? or more tunic like? I've seen some pictures reenactors in Magyar clothes with small round shields, small enough to be bucklers. With the right sword, say a curved Alchem blade, that could be kickass impression.

Either interpretation seems to be okay. Italian wall art showing these guys shows stuff that looks caftanish, and also things that are just flat-out buff-coaty with lots and lots of little buttons right up the middle. Fairly closely fitted, too. Going to be a project of mine once I can get space to leave leather out without it becoming Sacrificial ToddlerToy.

Russ Mitchell wrote:

Ekkehard wrote:Are they leather kaftans? or more tunic like? I've seen some pictures reenactors in Magyar clothes with small round shields, small enough to be bucklers. With the right sword, say a curved Alchem blade, that could be kickass impression.

Either interpretation seems to be okay. Italian wall art showing these guys shows stuff that looks caftanish, and also things that are just flat-out buff-coaty with lots and lots of little buttons right up the middle. Fairly closely fitted, too. Going to be a project of mine once I can get space to leave leather out without it becoming Sacrificial ToddlerToy.

Are the art images available online? I'd be interested in taking a look at them.