Who else likes Sword and Buckler? (Rattan)

[Ogedei]

I don't fight with a buckler.....

That being said, I am 6'5" and fight with a smallish round shield. 26"

I lose my legs a lot against better fighters, ie they are able to essentially take them at will.

Any advice?

Og.

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

I don't fight with a buckler.....

That being said, I am 6'5" and fight with a smallish round shield. 26"

I lose my legs a lot against better fighters, ie they are able to essentially take them at will.

Any advice?

Og.

Greetings Og,

I'm only 6'3, but when I play sword and buckler people seem to think my legs are just wonderful targets--what I do, and my advice to you, is use that to your advantage!

Leave an obvious opening at your legs and bait your opponent into taking it--then, as soon as they bite, let fall your shield, lunge in and bash them in the back of the head with a wrap shot. The combination of gravity, hand speed and foreknowledge of where your opponent is going to shoot will block shots from fighters much faster than you.

I also do the opposite, using the 'Unterarm' guard, and leaving my head completely exposed. Opponent tries to flat snap me, I step offline, 'fall under my shield' (see I33) and hack into their ribs or leg.

Finally, you might also try parking your shield low, and learn to sword-parry the limited array of high shots that most fighters use.

Good luck!

[Benedek]

I don't fight with a buckler.....

That being said, I am 6'5" and fight with a smallish round shield. 26"

I lose my legs a lot against better fighters, ie they are able to essentially take them at will.

Any advice?

Og.

Learn to refuse the legs. Draw them in and as they swing down just move your fore leg back and come crashing down on their head or shoulders. Same technique in Lilchtenauer's work for fighting with longsword.

I try not to block my legs at all when fighting with a buckler, it teaches good footwork and how "not to be there". I also don't wear any thigh protection so the lesson in learned quickly.

[SirAngus]

Want even more fun? Attach rattan to the vertical handle of your buckler and have about 2" stick out of both ends.. Pad, and voila! You have a madu er.... um.... buckler that you can then use to strike (aka stab) your opponants with and use it in a much more period manner.

To get it passed, I call it a madu, but I know it's really a striking buckler

You'll never go back

[tvetree]

Why, to watch a skilled sword and buckler fighter would undoubtedly bring a tear of joy to my eye.



Regards

Avery

I don't count myself as skilled,but I'm no better with a strapped round.
Sorry only have this on facebook,but if you have one, have a look...

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id= ... 0919912443

Bad Link,I fail at the interwebs...

try this one.No longer on facebook
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_cNwCVSSIo

[Adriano]

I had to give up shields twenty years ago because of a shoulder problem; would really like to try a lightweight buckler.

[DukeAvery]

Very enjoyable - both of you are actively hunting useful angles and appear to be swinging with 'intent'. Is the gentleman in blue in a close faced helm? Small shields, bucklers especially, are very unforgiving of mistakes.

Thank you for sharing.

Regards

Avery

Why, to watch a skilled sword and buckler fighter would undoubtedly bring a tear of joy to my eye.



Regards

Avery

I don't count myself as skilled,but I'm no better with a strapped round.
Sorry only have this on facebook,but if you have one, have a look...

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id= ... 0919912443

Bad Link,I fail at the interwebs...

try this one.No longer on facebook
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_cNwCVSSIo

[DukeAvery]

That's a very ambitious shield size for your height; My compliments.

In no particular order;

1) All the small shield styles I am familar with (as has been mentioned in the thread earlier) are all about pure aggression and range control. This translates to being very fit and very mobile - leg armor that doesn't inhibit your movement is very advanteous.

2) 'Keep a tape-on' thrusting tip and use it against other guys with thrusting tips. I find this very useful. I prefer to slash only, but against large shields and other thrusting tips there is no substitute for keeping them at bay while you think or 'recover'.

3) Use a swinging pell (tire on a rope) to develop advanced targeting skills. Eventually, you'll able to play with it the way a cat plays with a ball of yarn. A rocking pell (and I mean one that swings wildly) might be almost as good.

4) Speed blocking drills. The advice to void some shots is good, as is baiting a response you've predicted. But once you move inside you'll still want crazy blocking skills. Have a fast fighter you trust start slowly and weakly and throw shot patterns which you block. Have him go no faster than you can block, and slowly increase the speed and power until you can block everything at speed. Start with nerf weapons if need be. You're programming in reactions.

5) This goes with 4) - close what range you can when blocking (punch block). I target just above the hilt since that is the center of mass of the weapon.

6) Be persistent, but if it isn't working for you go to a larger or differently shaped shield. Not everyone has the pure reaction speeds bucklers/small shields demand. If you get just enough success to keep you going, well, that usually means you've got the speed.

7) Armor up.

Hope this helps. Consider dropping Paul an email. It can take what seems like forever for him to get back to you but he loves doing it and he really is a phenomenal trainer, among other things.

Regards

Avery

I don't fight with a buckler.....

That being said, I am 6'5" and fight with a smallish round shield. 26"

I lose my legs a lot against better fighters, ie they are able to essentially take them at will.

Any advice?

Og.

[Lorccan]

Does anyone sell a good buckler?

Steve

windrose. you'll never kill it

I have one of Windrose's 14" 14ga bucklers, and I love it - but I highly recommend removing the stock handle and replacing it. I used a piece of axe handle, trimmed to fit, riveted into place and wrapped with a bit of racket-wrap. It gives much better control, looks spiffy, and gets compliments from almost everyone who uses it (people love to borrow a buckler now and then.

[Lorccan]

To answer the original question, I love it!

What guards, stances and techniques do you like to use with this form?

I use a good bit of I.33 , along with bits from Gladiatoria, Flos Duellatorum, etc. I almost always rely on half-shield as my starting position, unless I find that I want to exert some different pressure on my opponent's movement or defense. My buckler is 14" round, my swords are 37" long (including thrusting tip).
I also fence, predominantly with sword and buckler. The comparison between rapier and rattan is very interesting; while I do thrust with the rattan, I do so much less, preferring to use the thrust to control range and create openings while striking almost entirely with the edge.

Duke Avery, my skills may be limited, but I would be delighted to meet you with sword and buckler to trade a few blows in appreciation of the form!

[zippy]

i usually have a buckler in my armor bag just in case
someone wants to play

[jester]

Interesting. How do those of you using historical techniques have to modify them to account for the tendency of SCA opponents to shield block rather than sword bind?

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

Interesting. How do those of you using historical techniques have to modify them to account for the tendency of SCA opponents to shield block rather than sword bind?

For one, I am of the opinion that if we can think of a way to swing a sword efficiently, someone else thought of it too back in the middle ages, so something doesn't have to have been written down in a fechtbuch to be a 'historical technique'. Opinions may differ on that.

Now, to the question, I find that to effectively use binds in SCA combat, the bind has to be very fleeting, just enough pressure on the opponent's sword and/or shield to allow me to step offline and attack an angle they can't defend.

As you say, most will block with their shield instead of sword bind, so when that happens, I'll punch with the buckler into the shield while taking a deep step to the shield-side and firing.

When you fight sword and buckler, you sometimes DO have a large shield to protect you, it's just that the other dude is carrying it for you

[DukeAvery]

Duke Avery, my skills may be limited, but I would be delighted to meet you with sword and buckler to trade a few blows in appreciation of the form!

I accept.

I hope I'll see you GWW. Long live the Queen!

Regards

Avery

[DukeAvery]

i usually have a buckler in my armor bag just in case
someone wants to play

That's a good idea! My small round, which I did take to Pennsic, just doesn't fly very well what with the super greedy airline policies on baggage these days. One that will fit into an army surplus duffle would be nice. Anybody know what buckler size does that?

If I get to southern (which I hope to do) I'll be bringing my s/b stuff.

Regards

Avery

[zippy]

i got one of these

http://stores.renstore.com/-strse-315/L ... Detail.bok

[Lorccan]

I accept.

I hope I'll see you GWW. Long live the Queen!

Regards

Avery

I will be there, Your Grace!

As for a travelling buckler, I think one 12-15" in diameter ought to fit in your duffle just fine (14" has become the de facto standard for an armoured combat buckler in Caid). However, the 14-gauge steel ones by Windrose, Renstore.com, Golden Boar, etc., weigh about 4 lbs. It might be worth making your own from a separate boss and wood or aluminum blank to conserve baggage weight, although the extra weight in the hand is nice for blocking.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Heck, I've found info on very small shields in early period - making a pair of matched ovals - probably no more that 18" long.

Matched thrown spears, followed by short spear and shield, followed by sword and shield.

.

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

Why, to watch a skilled sword and buckler fighter would undoubtedly bring a tear of joy to my eye.



Regards

Avery

As promised, here's a couple clips from today, showing sword and buckler vs some friends who are both using largish shields.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzIaaiVD8dU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji9DjJnZjSQ

Granted my match vs the knight is not a good example of how to defend the legs with a buckler (this guy is really fast), but hey, at least I closed the deal while legged!

I also just posted some cool greatsword footage from today, for those who enjoy that kind of thing. Well actually, for film study purposes, but entertainment too.

Enjoy!

[DukeAvery]

Those are some sweet blocks - now get yourself on down to Wrap City, U.S.A and pick up some prizes. There are two parts two a wrap - the delivery, and the sell.

Regards

Avery

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

Heh, thanks. There aren't a lot of other videos showing sword and buckler being effective against skilled fighters with large shields, because it is definitely a tough row to hoe...but it is very fun.

One notable exception is any video with Duke Havoc from the West kingdom--this guy uses a tiny triangle buckler and seems to lose his legs a LOT, but becomes virtually-unkillable once on his knees.

And although I don't profess to be as good as he is with sword and buckler, I see the same thing happen to me--a really good opponent like the knight in the video will leg me a lot of the time, but my chances of winning while legged are very good.

[Simon/Jim]

I fight a lot of sword and buckler. The one thing that nobody has talked about much yet is, getting in close. I mean really close. In my experience, you have to be close and very active with the buckler.

A couple people mentioned binding, that works very well, but again you have to be close. I really found that the rest of my fighting improved a lot when I started fighting buckler regularly.

If you ever make it to Starkhafn (Las Vegas) there are a couple of guys there who fight buckler pretty well. We used to have a buckler bear pit often, before I moved to the East and another guy moved to the West.

My buckler is also from Windrose and I carry it everywhere and love it.

Happy hunting.

In ferro veritas,

Baron Simon Montgumery
Squire to Sir Tearlach MacMillan
Caer Adamant, East Kingdom
(About to be in Warrior's Gate, Far West)
(Formerly of Caid, Outlands, Drachenwald & Ansteorra)

[Benedek]

Getting in close works real well against a great weapons fighter but I've found fighting against someone with a large shield is a bit tougher in that respect.

Range is your best friend in this scenario (IMO of course). Second to that is timing. Being able to sucker a sword and board fighter into sniping at your leg is sometimes difficult but can be very effective. Much of the time I fight buckler the same way one does a longsword.

YMMV.

[Jofthepeace]

For anyone attending Rose Tourney this weekend in the Middle Kingdom, I'll have 2 extra 18" bucklers for sale. $25

They are 18" round, 6.5" center hole for shield boss (boss not included)....8 equally spaced edging holes♦♦ (love the waterjet at work!) Made from T6 6061 aluminum in a 0.1" thickness....

look for the guy delivering aluminum shields or ask around for Justice

[Sir Brendan TT]

Buckler fighting can be sooo much fun, if you fiddle with the rules a bit.
I think it is called "the Vitus system" (?) when you don't fight from your knees or loose arms.
Basically, a hit to head or body is a kill. A hit to an arm/leg counts as "1/2 kill" but you retain the limb. Another hit to an extremity (or head/body) finishes you off.

Off course, fighting with standard rules works fine but you tend to spend a lot of times on your knees (not good för the knees) and personally I find it tedious.

[Benedek]

Buckler fighting can be sooo much fun, if you fiddle with the rules a bit.
I think it is called "the Vitus system" (?) when you don't fight from your knees or loose arms.
Basically, a hit to head or body is a kill. A hit to an arm/leg counts as "1/2 kill" but you retain the limb. Another hit to an extremity (or head/body) finishes you off.

Off course, fighting with standard rules works fine but you tend to spend a lot of times on your knees (not good för the knees) and personally I find it tedious.

A majority of the time I take a leg shot as a kill anyway, but that topic has been covered here many many times.

Using a buckler, enough footwork makes it fun to sucker people in and then refuse the leg while you take their head.

Just like the German Longsword manuals from Tobler, especially in the SCA sword and buckler have much in common with longsword combat.

[Sir Brendan TT]

True enough, but I'm an old, fat, slow greybeard with broken knees.
I may just as well start the fight sitting on a chair-

[tvetree]

Newest Vid...
Me and Sir Lothar (of House Drachenstein ) Playing around a bit.
Sword and buckler VS Polearm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozysFSn1cm4

[Garick]

I love sword and buckler fighting! I have two bucklers, and they fight very differently. The first is a *very* heavy steel buckler, made by Master Erik at Zweihammer. It's weight limits it's offensive use, but it is all but impossible for an opponant to control.
[img]http://zweihammer.com/gallery//displayimage.php?pos=-213[/img]

The other is a lighter half inch oak, with a light steel facing. While it is nowhere near as pretty, it allows for a lot more advanced technique. I have been having a lot of fun with buckler binds, and a lot of tai chi-like redirection and balance games. I find that slapping blows, rather than hard blocking them, takes many SCA fighters completely by surprise.

Duke Gerhardt and I had some epic buckler fights while I was in Drachenwald. Good times. One of my five favorite fights ever was in a West Kingdom Crown, me with buckler and Duke Radnor with his broken lance. I eventually lost the fight, but by that point, the victory was unnecessary. The combat was already trancendent.

(Actually, now that I think of it, I've lost tow of my five favorite combats, won one, and can't remember who won the other two...)

Cheers,
Garick

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Newest Vid...
Me and Sir Lothar (of House Drachenstein ) Playing around a bit.
Sword and buckler VS Polearm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozysFSn1cm4

Use your thrusting tip.

[MTNScout]

I was recently introduced to Sword and Buckler and I had so much fun while so doing. Here are some pics of my first fight (borrowing JoshW's buckler), I think we ended up killing one another at the same time. I love the progression though, it looks like we were mirroring one another when in fact we were moving much much more.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/51549651@N02/5101277040/" title="DSCN0322 by MTNScout, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4149/5101277040_f77a7cc0c1.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSCN0322"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/51549651@N02/5100683631/" title="DSCN0324 by MTNScout, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4145/5100683631_92d5391978.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSCN0324"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/51549651@N02/5101277790/" title="DSCN0323 by MTNScout, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1436/5101277790_3dd85c47c3.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSCN0323"></a>

[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

I like it, though I've done it only a little. I think it comes closer to how a prudhomme would fight afoot rather than using a large shield.

[Benedek]

I was recently introduced to Sword and Buckler and I had so much fun while so doing. Here are some pics of my first fight (borrowing JoshW's buckler), I think we ended up killing one another at the same time. I love the progression though, it looks like we were mirroring one another when in fact we were moving much much more.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/51549651@N02/5101277040/" title="DSCN0322 by MTNScout, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4149/5101277040_f77a7cc0c1.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSCN0322"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/51549651@N02/5100683631/" title="DSCN0324 by MTNScout, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4145/5100683631_92d5391978.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSCN0324"></a>

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/51549651@N02/5101277790/" title="DSCN0323 by MTNScout, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1436/5101277790_3dd85c47c3.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="DSCN0323"></a>

A Ha! Tony, I'll be up in Leavenworth this weekend. I've been fighting at practice for the last couple of weeks with Sword and Buckler but noone else will fight with a smaller shield.

"I'ma callin' you out boy!"

I'd love to have a go this Saturday. I'll be visiting Josh all day Saturday. We need to get a practice together quickly.

[MTNScout]

Challenge accepted! This weekend will be the first test of our indoor winter site, should be a lot of fun! Make sure you bring a state or federal issued ID so you can get on base.

We will of course post pictures...

[Benedek]

Challenge accepted! This weekend will be the first test of our indoor winter site, should be a lot of fun! Make sure you bring a state or federal issued ID so you can get on base.

We will of course post pictures...

I got a DL, I'll be there. What time do I need to roll into town Saturday for the ass whoopin' I'll be receiving?