[SCA Topic] Squires tourney advice.

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 11:55 am

Hi all,

Thought it might be nice to talk about fighting once in awhile on this board

I've got a squires tourney coming up this weekend and would like some input from others on their usual strategy.

For those who are unaware of what a squires tourney is here is a brief description.
1)Squires tournies are usually run in one format out here (Kingdom of An Tir, Principality of Avacal). You take a whole bunch of fighters (non squires usually "squire for the day" to a knight that is either watching them or is acquainted with them) put them in an erik and tell them to fight. The concept is simple, you fight someone and then report wether you won or lost. There is a time frame to work within ie 2 - 30 minute halves or 60 minutes straight. Winners are determined in three categories usally. 1) Most fights, 2) Most wins and 3) The Chivalry prize.

Options one and two are usually what you strive for. However I've been in an Airplane for the better part of three months and don't think I have the wind to go the 60 plus fights it will take to win that prize. (As a note my Knight once went 68w - 8losses in a 60 minute squires tourney)

The Chivalry prize would be good as well. To win that you have to fight all the Knights, repeatedly, bow to everyone introduce yourself use proper titles etc. I could definatly win this but my Knight would like to see me try for the most wins or most fights.

If you are a squire what is your usually strategy?

If you are a Knight what do you/would you look for?

I keep hearing de Charny saying "He who does more is more worthy"...I just don't think my 32 year old out of shape bod can pull off 65 + fights

------------------
Ewan of Loch Fynne
Reverisco!
"I grow strong again!"
Warcry of the Clan Ewan

Kyle · Post by **Kyle** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 12:55 pm

You've probably already thought of these, but:

1) Some of the squires are probably close to knighting, and think that they need to show how brutal they can be to get the belt. Bring your "A" game and play not to get hurt.

2) Some of the squires may be not far from newbies, and still dewey-eyed over this whole squiring thing. Be clean and effective, but also chivalrous and courteous.

Overall, if you're worried about conditioning, just concentrate on clean fights and chivalrous behavior. Don't try and be a monster if you'll look like a thug doing it. There's always another tourney coming up...

- Kyle

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:11 pm

Wow, Kyle pretty much covered it.
He's serious about bringing your A game too.
All my squire/huscarl bros and I went to one of Fast Eddies "squire" tourneys in NY a few years back.....

Lots of fun and we ended up killing each other off towards the end because we all got pretty far.
We went with an A game GROUP mentality.
That helps alot sometimes.
Especially because people who are really familiar with your fighting style can tell you what to work on after every bout.
Buddy up if you can, you'll learn stuff you might not otherwise.

VvS

***And Squire Bill will never take a legged greatswordsman in a smallish list for granted again.
Neither will his groin.....(grin)***

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:24 pm

A point of clarification. The squires tourney here is all single combat. No teams. Just a whole bunch of single combats going on at once.

It sounded like there was a misconception on this point. If not, ignore the above

------------------
Ewan of Loch Fynne
Reverisco!
"I grow strong again!"
Warcry of the Clan Ewan

Munz · Post by **Munz** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:29 pm

Sounds like an interesting concept. It sounds to me like this event is designed for unbelts to compete in a stuctured tourney so the Chivalry can get a good look at them under pressure. We have something similar called "Unbelted" down here in Caid. Ours is a regular tourney but has the same sort of purpose. I agree that there will be some who feel that they are close to getting knighted and will do everything they can to show off for the Chivalry. Unfortunately that is usually the wrong thing to do. I would suggest just going out, fighting well, be honest and courteous. Those are the qualities that the knights are looking for. Don't be concerned with victory, that doesn't seem to me to be the reason for this format. If you get a prize that's all the better.

Sir Mons

[This message has been edited by Munz (edited 11-27-2002).]

Symon VanMoordrecht · Post by **Symon VanMoordrecht** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:46 pm

Vermin knows that the fights are single combat, by "buddying up" he means hang with friendly squires. Look out for them, let them look out for you. (By look out, I mean, watch their fights,. give them suggestions, take their suggestions. scout there opponents. That sort of thing.) A little support can go along way to keeping you focused.

BTW, Vermin, Unka-Thud says â€œHiâ€

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 2:02 pm

Just fight everyone and kill them all.
That's what I try to do.

No, really.
If you are chivalrous, it will show anyway.

-Dmitriy

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 2:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Munz:
Sounds like an interesting concept. It sounds to me like this event is designed for unbelts to compete in a stuctured tourney so the Chivalry can get a good look at them under pressure. We have something similar called "Unbelted" down here in Caid. Ours is a regular tourney but has the same sort of purpose. I agree that there will be some who feel that they are close to getting knighted and will do everything they can to show off for the Chivalry. Unfortunately that is usually the wrong thing to do. I would suggest just going out, fighting well, be honest and courteous. Those are the qualities that the knights are looking for. Don't be concerned with victory, that doesn't seem to me to be the reason for this format. If you get a prize that's all the better.

Sir Mons

[This message has been edited by Munz (edited 11-27-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed on your first point.
There is clear precedence in our kingdom on the value of squires tourneys as a proving ground for up and comers. I'm not at the level of some of the fellows who are on the edge, but am being watched (by my knight most closely).

Where I am torn is which approach to take. The Chivalry prize strategy is a vastly differently approach than the most wins/ fights route. It will become very obvious which you are trying for.
The Most wins/most fights is definatly the higher renown strategy.
However, fighting all the knights (the King and Crown Prince will be there) repeatedly will give them the best view of me.

Shrug! We'll see how I feel on Saturday. Oh, did I mention there is a double elim Coronet tourney earlier in the day as well?

------------------
Ewan of Loch Fynne
Reverisco!
"I grow strong again!"
Warcry of the Clan Ewan

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 2:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dmitriy:
Just fight everyone and kill them all.
That's what I try to do.

No, really.
If you are chivalrous, it will show anyway.

-Dmitriy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love that reply! And yes, by the medieval definition of "chivalric" that would be the most chivalrous.

------------------
Ewan of Loch Fynne
Reverisco!
"I grow strong again!"
Warcry of the Clan Ewan

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 2:47 pm

Rule #1 - Have fun.

Rule #2 - Fight claen and hard.

Rule #3 - Have fun.

Rule #4 - Don't forget your helm or cup.

Rule #5 - Laugh at your losses.

Rule #6 - Congratulate you opponents efforts - win or lose.

Rule #7 - HAVE FUN!

Dilan

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Irish:
Rule #1 - Have fun.

snip

Rule #4 - Don't forget your helm or cup.

snip

Rule #7 - HAVE FUN!

Dilan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL on the helm and cup comment! Thanks for the advice.

------------------
Ewan of Loch Fynne
Reverisco!
"I grow strong again!"
Warcry of the Clan Ewan

Rainald · Post by **Rainald** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:05 pm

Rule #8 And try to look damn good while doing so.

....too many damn genricelts in armour and the lists need some eye candy anyway

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:22 pm

"Where I am torn is which approach to take. The Chivalry prize strategy is a vastly differently approach than the most wins/ fights route. It will become very obvious which you are trying for.
The Most wins/most fights is definatly the higher renown strategy."

A point to remember-
There are some amazing fighters that will NEVER get belted.
Winning is NOT everything.
My knight says that fighting is the "first 50% of being a knight", and that that's the easiest part.
The second 50% is how you go about doing it, and the impressions you make while doing so.
(On AND off of the field.)

I always though that was a good way to put it.

VvS

Cedric · Post by **Cedric** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:23 pm

Ok.. I love these things. I have one Most Fights one time (they held it after dark by torchlight = no passing out from heat for Cedric).

Everyone here has given you really good advice, but here's something else to remember. You have a time limit. Dont waste time plotting or planning or worrying about blows. Get in there fast, try to kill as fast and efficiently as you possibly can. Take anything you even think might have killed you without standing around and talking about how it may have felt kinda skippy... Stalking and strategizing are for more normal 1 on 1 tournaments where you have time to dance with each other - this is not that time.

Here's another thought - the most fun I have ever had in a Squire's Tourney was the couple of times that I didnt even bother to report. This way you can wander around, have a good time, fight as much or as little as you want with a whole bunch people. You can still win the Chivalry prize, but by foregoing Most Fights or Most Kills you also get rid of all that pressure to perform and can simply enjoy the fighting. Many people I know who have done this have never gone back to reporting... Of course, if your knight wants you to win Most Wins, this is kinda out, but maybe you could talk to him about it.

Enjoy

Palymar · Post by **Palymar** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ewan:


The Chivalry prize strategy is a vastly differently approach than the most wins/ fights route. It will become very obvious which you are trying for.

However, fighting all the knights (the King and Crown Prince will be there) repeatedly will give them the best view of me.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you decide to go this route and try for the Chivalry Prize, you need to consider another factor.
Every Knight you fight will also fight almost everyone else on the field at some point. You need to do something that will insure they will remember you. Give them your best fight. And don't just take anything that touches you as good to try to make a good impression. Most knights are skilled enough and know when their blows were not really any good. If you take a shot that was marginal, you may be seen as sucking up. If you don't take a shot, tell them why (if such communication is appropriate in An Tir) That will tell them you are aware of what is happening to you.

An ex-squire of mine, Duke Jafar, gave this advice as to how to impress the Knights. He said: make sure you can beat them, and have them enjoy it.

If you can't do that, at least have them really enjoy their fight with you, that way they will remember you and in a positive way.

[This message has been edited by Palymar (edited 11-27-2002).]

Munz · Post by **Munz** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:59 pm

My point is that your approach shouldn't be to "win" any of the particular prizes. Your chivalry and honor should show through on the field because of what you are, not because you are TRYING to be the most chivalrous. That is pride and should be avoided.

"For I maintain that ther are no small feats of arms, only good ones and great ones..." Geoffroi de Charny

Base victory should not be the goal. I have stood in your shoes and worried about how to best compete and win. Only when I stepped back and realized that it was how I fought and not how many fights did I win, did I achieve what I was working towards. Don't look at this tourney as something to win, but as a place to gain "glory and reknown". I know that sounds corny, but it can be enlightening.

Sir Mons

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 4:16 pm

That doesn't sound corny at all.

VvS

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 4:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vermin:
That doesn't sound corny at all.

VvS<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very heartily agreed!

------------------
Ewan of Loch Fynne
Reverisco!
"I grow strong again!"
Warcry of the Clan Ewan

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 4:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Palymar:
 If you decide to go this route and try for the Chivalry Prize, you need to consider another factor.
Every Knight you fight will also fight almost everyone else on the field at some point. You need to do something that will insure they will remember you. Give them your best fight. And don't just take anything that touches you as good to try to make a good impression. Most knights are skilled enough and know when their blows were not really any good. If you take a shot that was marginal, you may be seen as sucking up. If you don't take a shot, tell them why (if such communication is appropriate in An Tir) That will tell them you are aware of what is happening to you.

An ex-squire of mine, Duke Jafar, gave this advice as to how to impress the Knights. He said: make sure you can beat them, and have them enjoy it.

If you can't do that, at least have them really enjoy their fight with you, that way they will remember you and in a positive way.

[This message has been edited by Palymar (edited 11-27-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good advice Sir, Thank-you.

------------------
Ewan of Loch Fynne
Reverisco!
"I grow strong again!"
Warcry of the Clan Ewan

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 4:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Munz:
My point is that your approach shouldn't be to "win" any of the particular prizes. Your chivalry and honor should show through on the field because of what you are, not because you are TRYING to be the most chivalrous. That is pride and should be avoided. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you in principle Munz. Perhaps my point is unclear. In order to compete with those striving to win most fights/wins you hardly talk to your opponent, you run to the list table, you take water while waiting to report and you take the first fight that you can get coming off reporting from the list table.

If you take your time, fight the best fighters, be coutreous to the water bearers, introduce yourself to your opponent use all of the appropriate titles and discuss your fights between time then you are more likely to be considered for the Chivalry prize.

Let me be clear. The above is very descriptive of my natural personality. I just need to decide if I want to make a run at the most wins title.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
"For I maintain that ther are no small feats of arms, only good ones and great ones..." Geoffroi de Charny

Base victory should not be the goal. I have stood in your shoes and worried about how to best compete and win. Only when I stepped back and realized that it was how I fought and not how many fights did I win, did I achieve what I was working towards. Don't look at this tourney as something to win, but as a place to gain "glory and reknown". I know that sounds corny, but it can be enlightening.

Sir Mons<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank-you for the above reminder. I had lost sight of that. As a matter of fact that really cements my decision. If I want to be one of the best I need to fight the best... right? de Charny (or Sir Nigel for that matter

) Wouldn't have found the "fastest" fight he would have searched out the scariest, meanest fighters and tested himself against them.

Thank-you!

------------------
Ewan of Loch Fynne
Reverisco!
"I grow strong again!"
Warcry of the Clan Ewan

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Thu Nov 28, 2002 1:35 am

Hmmm, I'm not a squire or a knight, but I would say fight your best and act as you normally would. You are doing this game for yourself, no one else. Act as your honour tells you and have fun.
Slainte,
Fearghus

------------------
Every morning, the gazelle awakens, knowing it must run faster than the lion to survive. Each morning, the lion awakens, knowing it must run faster than the gazelle, in order to survive. In the end, it does not matter if you are a lion or a gazelle, so long as in the morning, you are running.Fearghus's Homepage

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Sat Nov 30, 2002 11:42 am

Everyone has some great advice, so theres nothing much for me to add. However I'm here so:

Go out and fight everyone on the field at least once and fight them like you normally would. The lessons you will learn are more important then winning and if everything works out -you'll win too. When you fight the chivilry, fight them hard and let them know you are serious. Knights expect a clean solid blow, so accept nothing less. As others have already said -make them remember you! Introduce youself, and thank them for the fight when it's over. Don't suck up to them -but don't just walk up, fight, and then walk away.

On another note: I have seen to many people take these tourneys too seriously. I have known some fighters who went around and fought only the people they could defeat -thus avoiding the hotsticks. Not only do they not win, but they don't learn anything either.

Go out and do your chivilric best -that is all anyone can ask. Most of all have fun!

(^_^)
-----------
Kenric de la Terre
Squire to Duke Sir John The Bearkiller
Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies.

[This message has been edited by hjalmr (edited 11-30-2002).]

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Sun Dec 01, 2002 8:11 pm

I won the Chivalry prize and got squired to Viscount Sir Gunther Rorikson.

Went to fith round in Coronet and lost to the only repeat Princes in list. Got lucky and beat two of the best squires during Coronet as well.

Had a GREAT event.

------------------
Ewan of Loch Fynne
Reverisco!
"I grow strong again!"
Warcry of the Clan Ewan

Lord Mangrove Berkhowitz · Sun Dec 01, 2002 10:06 pm

It just occured to me; I am unaware of any knights that weren't squires first. Does such a thing exist?

-MB-

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lord Mangrove Berkhowitz:
It just occured to me; I am unaware of any knights that weren't squires first. Does such a thing exist?

-MB-<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you mean "were never ever squired" or "weren't squired at the time of their knighting" ?

In Ansteorra, there has been two recently who fit in that category, Earl Duncan Arthur Ross the Black and Sir Erasmus Totengrabber were both knighted without being squires, although I think Sir Asoph (my knight) squired Erasmus the night before his knighting.

Wulfgar Davinsson · Post by **Wulfgar Davinsson** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 10:50 am

I've already said this, Ewan, but...

CONGRATULATIONS!!!

You fought really well, and deserve that belt. I had a blast as well, it was a fun event, and there were a lot of great fighters in attendance.

It was actually my first tourney, I've avoided them all these years, and was pretty hesitant about fighting in this one (mostly due to my self-induced hiatus), but I'm glad I did, I had a blast.

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:58 pm

Well done!

VvS

twoswords · Post by **twoswords** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 2:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lord Mangrove Berkhowitz:
It just occured to me; I am unaware of any knights that weren't squires first. Does such a thing exist?

-MB-<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know my knight, Duke Elffin, was never a squire.

- Marcus.. :-)

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 3:54 pm

Congratualtions!

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 10:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Wulfgar Davinsson:
I've already said this, Ewan, but...

CONGRATULATIONS!!!

You fought really well, and deserve that belt. I had a blast as well, it was a fun event, and there were a lot of great fighters in attendance.

It was actually my first tourney, I've avoided them all these years, and was pretty hesitant about fighting in this one (mostly due to my self-induced hiatus), but I'm glad I did, I had a blast.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Wulfgar. By the way...how do you manage to keep me from hitting your leg with little round shield? Self imposed hiatus or not you have very good Defense.

Hope to see you at Estrella!

Thanks for the kind words everyone.

------------------
Ewan of Loch Fynne
Reverisco!
"I grow strong again!"
Warcry of the Clan Ewan

Wulfgar Davinsson · Post by **Wulfgar Davinsson** » Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Thanks Wulfgar. By the way...how do you manage to keep me from hitting your leg with little round shield? Self imposed hiatus or not you have very good Defense.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's something HRH has had me working on, and it seems to work!!!

Now, if only I could get it to work for my head

I will be at Estrella, no worries.