Sword and Shield Boring?

[Count Johnathan]

Yeah sword and shield is just boring your highness. Admit it you're a boring fat fighter in a boring fat tunic behind a boring fat shield just waiting to belly bump and throw boring wraps...

Just like me

Cause that's how we roll LOL


Edit to add: BTW the combat of the thirty looks to me like unskilled mindless repetative caveman head chopping... because that's exactly what it is. I watched the video. Not impressed. The armour is cool though. The "fighting" if you can call it that just isn't.

[blackbow]

As much as the SCA tries to "recreate realism" it's always fascinated me that shields are unbreakable. They broke. A lot. The locations in the SCA that placed official upper limits on the size of the shields they allowed in crown tourneys have admitted this, whether officially or not. Absent limiting shield size, an SNS fight basically becomes a contest called "who made the first mistake?" which, at high levels, can take a long time, during which there's just nothing interesting to see. No mistake=nobody gets hit at all, or at least not well enough. It's like watching a rally in tennis. ball goes across, ball goes back. ball goes across, ball goes back. Or a fencing match where the audience literally can't follow the action because it's so fast, and then a buzzer goes off, and then the judges have to sort out who had right of way.

blackbow

[Count Johnathan]

I suppose you have to understand what's happening in the fight to find it exciting. I do and I enjoy crown finals more often than not. What I find boring is when one fighter is so superior to the other that one shot thrown ends the fight. I also find people who are unskilled with S&S fighting against each other to be very boring. Of course unskilled fighters are boring to watch no matter what weapon they are using.

Perhaps that's the problem some people are having. Maybe everybody in your area needs to practice more.

[sha-ul]

I admit it up front: I suck at SCA sword and shield, and I probably always will. That doesn't bother me in the slightest. I don't want to waste my time in this game doing things that I don't find fun.

I am just not interested enough in the style, or any of the periods in which that style was commonly practiced to be bothered to muster the interest to become good at it; I sold my only shield (apart from a buckler) to a newbie a couple weeks ago. Now, things like bastard sword, single stick, polearm, sword and buckler--those are fast, mobile, fun to watch, and just all-around exhilarating; they appeal to me in a way that SCA sword and shield will never be able to. Best of all, they were common in the periods in which I am interested. Gentlemen did not often fight on foot with swords and shields in the late 15th century, AFAIK.

change that to late 16C and you echo my sentiments exactly. I have a job that ties me up most days till dark, I have a family that ties me up the rest of the time. I don't have hundreds or thousands of hours to spend "mastering" the sword& shield& truth be told, great weapons are a lot more fun. and Bastard sword? that is almost better than sex.

[Stephen du Bois]

His Grace Wrote:

I have found that, in my personal dealings, the majority of people that I have met who find Sword and shield "boring" are the ones who simply can't fight well, or at least can't fight S&S well.

And over75% of the time, the average S&S guy is better than they are in their preferred weapon style.

A lot of the complaining about S&S stems from the fact that upper echelon fighters tend for the most part to gravitate to it. It is therefore the natural reaction of those who are either physically incapable or just simply not willing to put in the hundreds and thousands of hours of training required to be in the top bracket, to dismiss the style as boring and unskilled.

If it S&S took no skill, there would be far more low level mediocre fighters wearing ducal coronets.

WoW, I guess if 75% of the average S&S fighters are better than I am at pole arm I'd better turn in my white belt..and apparently all of the time I spent training with pole arm was unnecessary because apparently no skill or training is required.

But what do I know, I'm just a lowly Count who happens to think S&S fights are boring when compared with sword and buckler or great weapons.

Stephen

[Varyag]

My Lords and Ladies,

Why would watching two inexperienced fighters be boring?

That's like saying it is boring to watch a couple of guys trying to ride bicycles thru heavy traffic with blind folds on.

The whiz of near misses, the agony of passed-up shots you can see but they can't, the tripping over each other, the tangling of weapons... than finally that head-on truck of flat snap that one finally lands.

I love watching new guys scrap. I am proud of their kills and encourage them to build on their experiences, as we all have.

Speaking of which, I have some video of myself fighting one of my early fights: heater that was too big, bad modern armour, sword so long it was stabbing the ground behind me when I tried to hit the guy in front of me . I always start to delete it from my hard drive but the comedy value makes me keep it. Lets me know how far I have come.

Sword and board isn't boring, imo. Fighters who always fight with just one style are. I think that a Knight should attain a level of prowess that allows them to be threatening with any weapon they should happen to pick up.

[Josh W]

Sword and board isn't boring, imo. Fighters who always fight with just one style are.

That's a good point there. I don't care for it when fighter practice consists of nothing but sword and shield bouts/drills with little to no play with other styles and systems. Part of the reason sword and shield bores me may be simple overexposure--it seems to be the only thing that an awful lot of people do. In some cases, it's the only system they have the equipment for (half-gaunts and basket hilts/shield baskets instead of full gauntlets), and they never even bother give the other styles a try.

[James B.]

I suppose you have to understand what's happening in the fight to find it exciting.

I think it is like you said people just need to be into it. I am just not interested in the sport of single combat in the SCA especially sword and shield mostly because the rules set has moved it away from being anything medieval like. I still use a sword in steel combat.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

This is a really silly topic, if you think about it.

To any individual, a particular fight might be boring, a particular style might be boring, but a particular weapon form can't. Too many variables.

As far as indestructable shields, it is simple a rule for our sport, like indestructable hafts, no striking below the knee, etc. Every weapon form and style of fighting with any particular weapon has advantages and disadvantages. The great fighters takes greatest advanage of the first and eliminates the second the best they can.

Even in tourney bouts that are dynamic, with a lot of blows and moevement, the goal is the same as the "single blow" fight - take advantage of the first mistake or opening presented, while not giving the opponent the same chance. I've seen Duke Brannos use both style - as appropriate.

I find it amusing that people call The Combat of 30 "unskilled" without TRYING IT. Same for polearm, or melee, or anyother activity. Or boring, dull, stupid, unchivalrous, etc... If it isn't your cup of mead, fine - just say that. But an uninformed declaration is just your opinion, and carries as much real weight as anyone else's. Maybe less.


Do what you love, to the best of your ability, as the rules allow. Let others do the same.


.

[Conrad the Mad]

Edit to add: BTW the combat of the thirty looks to me like unskilled mindless repetative caveman head chopping... because that's exactly what it is. I watched the video. Not impressed. The armour is cool though. The "fighting" if you can call it that just isn't.

oh boy

[Diglach Mac Cein]

I don't know Aaron - I'm not sure we would have more people.

But there certainly is a place for the CoTT (and similar activities) within the SCA, but it shouldn't REPLACE it.

Just my opinion, of course.

.

[Aaron]

IMO, this is good and entertaining sword-and-shield fighting in the SCA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQmR17sCH44

Watch how they move all over the area, very little conversation, good kits (IMO) and there is a flow.

Two guys with big shields on their knees doing the "mating dance of the elephant seal" is not entertaining to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQI5KUfM2xc

OK, it can be amusing. But the elephant seals are in better shape usually.

I prefer the Combat of Thirty to other events, to watch and join in if possible. It has what I like.

And it's what you like that matters.

-Aaron

[Roland Brokentooth]

I find it boring in the aspect that at your "typical" tournament, that is all anyone fights.

I'd like to see some more mixing it up. Especially at bear pits when you can fight tons of bouts in one tourney.

[Violen]

A suggestion:

I have found that when watching any pair spar, that i pick who i want to win. It usually adds to the excitement to have a favorite; unless Calontir has had some pretty dramatic crowns lately, this has keep the excitement for me when i have gotten to watch them. It really seems to make a difference.


I primarily fight greatsword but i know if want to be a well rounded fighter in the SCA that i need to work on Sword and Shield, Polearm, Spear, and even Two weapon. Right now on my pell i start with two weapon drills and combos, then i move to arm isolation. After that i work with my great sword and polearm since i lent out my spear.

It works different muscle groups. It's all relative to understanding the rest.

If you like it, fine.
If you dont, thats fine too.

I guess to sum this up, (TL; DR) Im a progressive metal bass player who was at the edge of the talent in his field. Then i realized i needed to learn jazz to get better. I didn't like Jazz, and it was hard.

Now i love it, and I can play anything.

I feel fighting is the same.

[Ulric]

I have found that, in my personal dealings, the majority of people that I have met who find Sword and shield "boring" are the ones who simply can't fight well, or at least can't fight S&S well.

And over75% of the time, the average S&S guy is better than they are in their preferred weapon style.

A lot of the complaining about S&S stems from the fact that upper echelon fighters tend for the most part to gravitate to it. It is therefore the natural reaction of those who are either physically incapable or just simply not willing to put in the hundreds and thousands of hours of training required to be in the top bracket, to dismiss the style as boring and unskilled.

If it S&S took no skill, there would be far more low level mediocre fighters wearing ducal coronets.

Just Sayin.

I think alot of the complaining about S&S stems less from the fact that upper echelon fighters gravitate towards it, and more from the fact that under the SCA ruleset, S&S is the most advantageous form to use...which is the same reason 75% (or more) of the time, the average S&S fighter will defeat the average _______.

[James B.]

I have found that, in my personal dealings, the majority of people that I have met who find Sword and shield "boring" are the ones who simply can't fight well, or at least can't fight S&S well.

And over75% of the time, the average S&S guy is better than they are in their preferred weapon style.

A lot of the complaining about S&S stems from the fact that upper echelon fighters tend for the most part to gravitate to it. It is therefore the natural reaction of those who are either physically incapable or just simply not willing to put in the hundreds and thousands of hours of training required to be in the top bracket, to dismiss the style as boring and unskilled.

If it S&S took no skill, there would be far more low level mediocre fighters wearing ducal coronets.

Just Sayin.

I don't think anyone here said it is not skilled just not their thing. There are dozens of martial arts in the world and people pick one they find interesting; I think people need to realize some people just don't love the same game they do and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Count Johnathan]

LOL @ Conrad

Just so we're clear I am just being a d-ck on this one. While I personally find the CotT to be lacking in excitement I know others like it so I was just kind of proving a point.

Diglach I agree "This is a really silly topic"

Good fighters make for good fights. I suppose it can be funny to watch new dudes at the same skill level fight it out but I enjoy watching skilled fighters more. I like to be dazzled by different skills being displayed.

For example I have seen some youtube fights of HG Duke Branos and I am impressed with his tight defense. I also appreciate the power and fluidity of HG Logans offense. I also have a great appreciation for the lack of wasted movement in HG Brian Tarragons and HG Bedfords S&S styles.

I also must note that all of these people are excellent with all other styles of weapons I have seen them fight with. Like I said great fighters make for great fights. Sucky fighters make for sucky fights.

[Count Johnathan]

edit: double post

[Conrad the Mad]

I also find people who are unskilled with S&S fighting against each other to be very boring. Of course unskilled fighters are boring to watch no matter what weapon they are using.

Perhaps that's the problem some people are having. Maybe everybody in your area needs to practice more.

I love watching skilled fighters, whether it be brute strength, style and grace, or just pure tactical thinking.

I also love to watch new fighters. Their energy is addicting, their enthusiasm to learn more gives me hope, and their smiles when they win are the best.

I love to teach new guys, I would say I am a better teacher than a fighter.
I have all the style of a toddler playing with blocks.

The above statement screams to me that you dont teach, because you find it "boring". I am once again astounded by the perception of arrogance that seems to surround you, and that you revel in it.

[Count Johnathan]

OK now you crossed the line conrad. Get bent.

I teach anyone who wants to learn. Do I seek out contests between noobs for my viewing pleasure? No but I will watch them and critique them and train them to be better fighters.

[Conrad the Mad]

Get bent? Wow, really?

If you re-read your statements about the Cott and about new or unskilled fighters, how does one NOT read into it?

As I said this gives you the perception of arrogance.
Now we all have opinions, and all entitled to them of course.
I only wish you would re-read your posts before submitting.
Many of your posts stick out like a newborn's belly button.

[Conrad the Mad]

As a recognized member of the Chivalry, I would think you would seek out and watch the unskilled or new fighter. Give pointers, at the least ,as often as possible.

It should be a duty of your station, is it not?

[Thorstenn]

I find all styles exciting, each with it's own "Saveur de Combat" To piss and moan about which is best is a wast of training time and energy.

GO FIGHT!!!


Thor.

[James B.]

I don't understand why these always devolve into name calling and saying one game is better than another or try to say one style is more manly than another. In the end we are all just nerds playing dress up on the weekend and if you are awesome at this one type a game that and $5 gets you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

You are into it or you are not, there is nothing more to it than that.

[Count Johnathan]

As a recognized member of the Chivalry, I would think you would seek out and watch the unskilled or new fighter. Give pointers, at the least ,as often as possible.

It should be a duty of your station, is it not?

And I am the one who needs to read more? Come on man.

Do I seek out contests between noobs for my viewing pleasure? No but I will watch them and critique them and train them to be better fighters.

[Mord]

As a recognized member of the Chivalry, I would think you would seek out and watch the unskilled or new fighter. Give pointers, at the least ,as often as possible.

It should be a duty of your station, is it not?

It is, unless there is someone there who is better at teaching. Then get out of the way.

Mord.

[Conrad the Mad]

And I am the one who needs to read more? Come on man.

Do I seek out contests between noobs for my viewing pleasure? No but I will watch them and critique them and train them to be better fighters.

I accept the plate of crow and prepare to dig in heartily. My most humble apologies.

[spearweasel]

I admit it up front: I suck at SCA sword and shield, and I probably always will. That doesn't bother me in the slightest. I don't want to waste my time in this game doing things that I don't find fun.

I am just not interested enough in the style, or any of the periods in which that style was commonly practiced to be bothered to muster the interest to become good at it; I sold my only shield (apart from a buckler) to a newbie a couple weeks ago. Now, things like bastard sword, single stick, polearm, sword and buckler--those are fast, mobile, fun to watch, and just all-around exhilarating; they appeal to me in a way that SCA sword and shield will never be able to. Best of all, they were common in the periods in which I am interested. Gentlemen did not often fight on foot with swords and shields in the late 15th century, AFAIK.

change that to late 16C and you echo my sentiments exactly. I have a job that ties me up most days till dark, I have a family that ties me up the rest of the time. I don't have hundreds or thousands of hours to spend "mastering" the sword& shield& truth be told, great weapons are a lot more fun. and Bastard sword? that is almost better than sex.

I'm in the same boat as you guys. I suck with sword and shield, have little time using it, and find it difficult to fight against in the SCA ruleset. I was just never very interested in it, esp. since I run a samurai harness.

I know there is skill and nuance involved, and I know some people enjoy it greatly. I never really have enjoyed it, since a lot of the fights I've seen feel like "big guys belly to belly throwing wrap shots" to my limited perceptions. There have been a few that have been exciting to watch, to be sure.

[Count Johnathan]

And I am the one who needs to read more? Come on man.

Do I seek out contests between noobs for my viewing pleasure? No but I will watch them and critique them and train them to be better fighters.

I accept the plate of crow and prepare to dig in heartily. My most humble apologies.

No need for it but I appreciate the apology anyway. The topic is rather silly and we are going a little overboard so my apologies as well. I had no intent on personally offending anyone which is why I acknowledged that I was just being dickish. Sorry the smileys didn't convey the intended sarcasm.

[Duke Areus]

And it's what you like that matters.

-Aaron

I agree with that.

[Balin50]

I like Cheese

[Aaron]

And it's what you like that matters.

-Aaron

I agree with that.

Thank you for reminding me that we can all have fun, just with different views of fun. If you are happy with the fight that's great! Drat...I've become Tony the Tiger.

[Saritor]

I like Cheese

Dammit, man...I have enough crap to cart to Estrella without having to figure out how many wheels of cheese I need to block you in your tent.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Read "The Unconquered Knight" and find out about period sword and shield fighting. The author was a career soldier and knew what he was talking about.

[Leo Medii]

Edit to add: BTW the combat of the thirty looks to me like unskilled mindless repetative caveman head chopping... because that's exactly what it is. I watched the video. Not impressed. The armour is cool though. The "fighting" if you can call it that just isn't.

Yep.