New SCA weapons Regs

For those of us who wish to talk about the many styles and facets of recreating Medieval armed combat.
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Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson
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Post by Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson »

Sir Tristen Sexwulf wrote:
Leo Medii wrote:No more 7.5 poles?

Oh, I mean fishing rods with a pokey on the end...oops.
Pole Arms ARE NOT mass weapons.

Mass weapons smash or punch holes based on the weapons mass.

Pole Arms that Cut (ie. glaives) are not mass weapons. (7.5' length max+ tail spike)
Pole Arms that smash (ie. lucerne hammer) are mass weapons. (6' length max + NO Tail spike)

So, maybe this is wishful thinking, but my impression of an axe is a cutting tool, so does this lift the length restrictions from axes?
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Post by Aaron »

Pictures of "allowed" and "not allowed" and "questionable" might be good. And it might even be a funny thread.

-Aaron
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Post by Sir Tristen Sexwulf »

Alric of Wiard wrote:
Sir Tristen Sexwulf wrote:
Leo Medii wrote:No more 7.5 poles?

Oh, I mean fishing rods with a pokey on the end...oops.
Pole Arms ARE NOT mass weapons.

Mass weapons smash or punch holes based on the weapons mass.

Pole Arms that Cut (ie. glaives) are not mass weapons. (7.5' length max+ tail spike)
Pole Arms that smash (ie. lucerne hammer) are mass weapons. (6' length max + NO Tail spike)

So, maybe this is wishful thinking, but my impression of an axe is a cutting tool, so does this lift the length restrictions from axes?
Whether or not it is an mass weapon Pole-axe (smashing/hole-punching 6' max) or a non-mass weapon axe-like pole-arm (slashing/cutting 7.5' max) is up to the Kingdom Earl Marshals.
All for Chivalry,

Sir Tristen Sexwulf
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“Quicumque est necesse pro malum praevaleo est pro bonus hominum efficio nihil.â€
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Post by Armand d'Alsace »

No spears under 5'?
Does this apply to the "thrust and throw" spears as well?
Respectfully, Armand

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Post by igelkott »

Arngrim wrote:No spears under 5'?
Does this apply to the "thrust and throw" spears as well?
The rules for spears are now really crazy. Here's how I read them:

1) you can make a spear any length you want as long as it's under 2 pounds. This can be used either 1 handed or 2 handed and can be thrown. You can even have a striking tip on both ends. It's not really a spear, it's a javelin but you can use it just like a spear.

rationale:
- the striking tip restrictions are in section B and C, not in A and/or E
- the spear length restrictions are in section C only and so don't apply to E

2) If you don't like the weight limitation, then you can go the 1 handed route and keep the spear under 4 ft long. The weight limit is then 5 pounds but you can't throw it. You can also only have the striking tip on one end.

rationale:
- The 5 foot min length restriction is in section C, not A or B so should only apply to 2 handed spears.

3) create a normal 2 handed spear. It must be at least 5 feet long. See restrictions in section C or D

Am I readng this craziness right?

Chris
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Post by Aaron »

I'm confused. Can someone make a picture book for me to show what is legal and what is not? :oops:
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Post by Duke Areus »

Sir Tristen Sexwulf wrote: So:
- If it looks like and acts like a smashing/hole punching pole hammer then it is a Mass Weapon & a PoleArm = 6' max + tail spike.

- If it looks like and acts like a smashing/hole punching maul or war hammer then it is a Mass Weapon but not a PoleArm = 6' + no tail spike.
.
Ok, whats the difference between a pole hammer and a war hammer?

Damn, now I'm confused!!![/i]
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Post by Aaron »

New drinking game to ensure hydration. READ the rules outloud. Everytime something might not be 100% clear, take a sip of water. Alternate with electrolyte solution (coconut water for example) and best two-out-of-three fighting to ensure hyperhydration doesn't occur.;)

Really, I am confused.
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Post by Edward MacTavish »

I find it very "nice" that my Bec and my voulge that are exsact copies from weapons I found in Germany, modified for SCA use are now Illegal. Back to the drawing board on this one I guess. :sad:

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Post by Leo Medii »

MacTavish wrote:I find it very "nice" that my Bec and my voulge that are exsact copies from weapons I found in Germany, modified for SCA use are now Illegal. Back to the drawing board on this one I guess. :sad:

Edward
I am thinking the same thing...

However, I haven't fought since last Friday of Pennsic, and am less and less missing it as it goes on.
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Post by Edward MacTavish »

Some times I really think I should stop trying to do things right, break out some sports armour, grab a basket hilt sword and shield and conform to what the SCA wants us to be. While I am at it I should make a short pole arm with a one inch blade and a basket hilt in the center. :evil:

Edward
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Post by Sir Tristen Sexwulf »

igelkott wrote:
Arngrim wrote:No spears under 5'?
Does this apply to the "thrust and throw" spears as well?
The rules for spears are now really crazy. Here's how I read them:

1) you can make a spear any length you want as long as it's under 2 pounds. This can be used either 1 handed or 2 handed and can be thrown. You can even have a striking tip on both ends. It's not really a spear, it's a javelin but you can use it just like a spear.

rationale:
- the striking tip restrictions are in section B and C, not in A and/or E
- the spear length restrictions are in section C only and so don't apply to E

2) If you don't like the weight limitation, then you can go the 1 handed route and keep the spear under 4 ft long. The weight limit is then 5 pounds but you can't throw it. You can also only have the striking tip on one end.

rationale:
- The 5 foot min length restriction is in section C, not A or B so should only apply to 2 handed spears.

3) create a normal 2 handed spear. It must be at least 5 feet long. See restrictions in section C or D

Am I readng this craziness right?

Chris
There are no thrust and throw spears.
There are thrust and throw javelins. I'd you want to use a thrust ant throw javelin to circumvent the spear length and/or tail spike rule go for it. But read the thrust and throw rules carefully. There are more to them than just 2 pound weight limit.
All for Chivalry,

Sir Tristen Sexwulf
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Post by Nissan Maxima »

Leo Medii wrote:
MacTavish wrote:I find it very "nice" that my Bec and my voulge that are exsact copies from weapons I found in Germany, modified for SCA use are now Illegal. Back to the drawing board on this one I guess. :sad:

Edward
I am thinking the same thing...

However, I haven't fought since last Friday of Pennsic, and am less and less missing it as it goes on.
:(
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Post by Sir Tristen Sexwulf »

MacTavish wrote:I find it very "nice" that my Bec and my voulge that are exsact copies from weapons I found in Germany, modified for SCA use are now Illegal. Back to the drawing board on this one I guess. :sad:

Edward
Your bec is a punching smashing pole arm. It is still legal up to 6'
A voulge is up to interpretation. From the voulges i have seen i would call them cutting/slashing polearms not a poleaxe (smashing or hole punching mass weapon) So IMO they can be 7.5'
But that interpretation is up your KEM.
All for Chivalry,

Sir Tristen Sexwulf
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“Quicumque est necesse pro malum praevaleo est pro bonus hominum efficio nihil.â€
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Post by dukelogan »

huh? so punching is legal now?

man..... i so have a reinvent of my fighting style. i actually know how to punch for real. i cant imagine how easy this will make my sca sport combat.

regards
logan
Sir Tristen Sexwulf wrote:
MacTavish wrote:I find it very "nice" that my Bec and my voulge that are exsact copies from weapons I found in Germany, modified for SCA use are now Illegal. Back to the drawing board on this one I guess. :sad:

Edward
Your bec is a punching smashing pole arm. It is still legal up to 6'
A voulge is up to interpretation. From the voulges i have seen i would call them cutting/slashing polearms not a poleaxe (smashing or hole punching mass weapon) So IMO they can be 7.5'
But that interpretation is up your KEM.
Ebonwoulfe Armory is fully stocked with spears again! For now the only way to order them is to send an email to ebonwoulfearmory@gmail.com with the quantity and your shipping address. We will send a PayPal invoice in response including your shipping cost.
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Post by Thorstenn »

Not the same thing and you know it...

They should get rid of two weapon fighting first but I'm in a minority :(

Thor.

dukelogan wrote:huh? so punching is legal now?

man..... i so have a reinvent of my fighting style. i actually know how to punch for real. i cant imagine how easy this will make my sca sport combat.

regards
logan
Sir Tristen Sexwulf wrote:
MacTavish wrote:I find it very "nice" that my Bec and my voulge that are exsact copies from weapons I found in Germany, modified for SCA use are now Illegal. Back to the drawing board on this one I guess. :sad:

Edward
Your bec is a punching smashing pole arm. It is still legal up to 6'
A voulge is up to interpretation. From the voulges i have seen i would call them cutting/slashing polearms not a poleaxe (smashing or hole punching mass weapon) So IMO they can be 7.5'
But that interpretation is up your KEM.
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Post by dukelogan »

actually, i dont know it. i was simply responding to brother tristens statement that there was/is a "punching" weapon. ive seen folks suggest that grasping an axe behind the blade and "punching" someone with it would somehow be a fight ender. ok, thats beyond silly but ive seen some folks suggest it. so, when i read that i thought "wow so we are maybe looking at silly to the extreme and allowing 'punching' weapons". i mean aside from the fact that its kinda cool in hollywood flicks its just silly in any semblance of real fighting.

and dual weapon fighting is period. i mean not the xena style of two longswords that we are plagued with in the sca which never happened in period. im talking about sword and spear which is very cool and very mush happened in period. the two long sword stuff i could do without even though i know a few guys that really are quite masterful at this non-period, totally sca, style of fighting.

regards
logan
Thorstenn wrote:Not the same thing and you know it...

They should get rid of two weapon fighting first but I'm in a minority :(

Thor.

dukelogan wrote:huh? so punching is legal now?

man..... i so have a reinvent of my fighting style. i actually know how to punch for real. i cant imagine how easy this will make my sca sport combat.

regards
logan
Sir Tristen Sexwulf wrote:
MacTavish wrote:I find it very "nice" that my Bec and my voulge that are exsact copies from weapons I found in Germany, modified for SCA use are now Illegal. Back to the drawing board on this one I guess. :sad:

Edward
Your bec is a punching smashing pole arm. It is still legal up to 6'
A voulge is up to interpretation. From the voulges i have seen i would call them cutting/slashing polearms not a poleaxe (smashing or hole punching mass weapon) So IMO they can be 7.5'
But that interpretation is up your KEM.
Ebonwoulfe Armory is fully stocked with spears again! For now the only way to order them is to send an email to ebonwoulfearmory@gmail.com with the quantity and your shipping address. We will send a PayPal invoice in response including your shipping cost.
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Post by bkillian »

I think punching in this case refers to a weapon designed to punch through armour like a hammer or even a spiked mace as oposed to say a cutting weapon like a sword not a katar or some such punch sword/dagger.
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Post by bkillian »

I think punching in this case refers to a weapon designed to punch through armour like a hammer or even a spiked mace as oposed to say a cutting weapon like a sword not a katar or some such punch sword/dagger.
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Post by Thorstenn »

Are you talking I-33 sword and spear style?

Thor.
dukelogan wrote:actually, i dont know it. i was simply responding to brother tristens statement that there was/is a "punching" weapon. ive seen folks suggest that grasping an axe behind the blade and "punching" someone with it would somehow be a fight ender. ok, thats beyond silly but ive seen some folks suggest it. so, when i read that i thought "wow so we are maybe looking at silly to the extreme and allowing 'punching' weapons". i mean aside from the fact that its kinda cool in hollywood flicks its just silly in any semblance of real fighting.

and dual weapon fighting is period. i mean not the xena style of two longswords that we are plagued with in the sca which never happened in period. im talking about sword and spear which is very cool and very mush happened in period. the two long sword stuff i could do without even though i know a few guys that really are quite masterful at this non-period, totally sca, style of fighting.

regards
logan
Thorstenn wrote:Not the same thing and you know it...

They should get rid of two weapon fighting first but I'm in a minority :(

Thor.

dukelogan wrote:huh? so punching is legal now?

man..... i so have a reinvent of my fighting style. i actually know how to punch for real. i cant imagine how easy this will make my sca sport combat.

regards
logan
Sir Tristen Sexwulf wrote:
MacTavish wrote:I find it very "nice" that my Bec and my voulge that are exsact copies from weapons I found in Germany, modified for SCA use are now Illegal. Back to the drawing board on this one I guess. :sad:

Edward
Your bec is a punching smashing pole arm. It is still legal up to 6'
A voulge is up to interpretation. From the voulges i have seen i would call them cutting/slashing polearms not a poleaxe (smashing or hole punching mass weapon) So IMO they can be 7.5'
But that interpretation is up your KEM.
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Post by Fearghus Macildubh »

I still don't get the big deal with double ended 9-12' spears, rattan or fiberglass. It's historicaly correct from the hoplite era forwards. I really feel that this change is opening us up for a whole bunch more rules lawyering and bearded gits.
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Post by Lorccan »

Whatever the good intentions behind some of these changes, it seems to me that the way that they were inserted into the existing text of the rules was a mistake. As several people here have stated, these changes leave a lot of room for confusion (which Sir Omarad apparently views as a good thing, since it allows for variations between Kingdoms?!?). This may have been preventable with a few sentences written from scratch, instead of awkwardly edited.

Overall, I see very little good and a whole lot of confusion coming from this. I hope I'm wrong!
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Post by Edward MacTavish »

I emailed Sir Omarad last night about my thought on the new wording. This is what he sent back.

"What new rule are you speaking of?
You do not make it clear what your issue is.
I have not outlawed anything.
I have little time for nonsense, I only reply because of my respect for Sir Morgan.
-Omarad"



So a seven and a half foot polearm with a hammer head is still legal as well as a double ended thrusting ratan spear?

Edward
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Post by William de Faleston »

So help me clear up a confusion here on the smashing/hole-punching vs. choppy/cutting distinction with polearms. I understand that this is partially coming from a desire to control the Hammer of Gallagher +2 type weapons, but I'm thinking the implications go beyond whether or not it is allowed a butt spike.

Are we saying now that a polearm that is deemed by your KEM a "primarily cutting" weapon is no longer a "mass weapon" and no longer kills on shoulder and hip shots?
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Post by Vladimir »

Good Lord these rules are convoluted. I've been doing this for years and I don't understand which of my weapons are mass weapons and which ones are not any more.

If they wanted to negate butt spikes on some things and not others why not just say no butt spikes on weapons shorter than 5 feet long.

Is a dane axe a mass weapon or not?

Is a halberd with a cutting head on one side and a spike on the other a mass weapon or not?

Is a polaxe with a cutting head on one side and a hammer on the other a mass weapon or not?

Is an english bill with a cutting, hooking, poking head all combined together a mass weapon or not?
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Post by Mord »

Mord wrote:I have asked for more information on these rules, but in general I think they need a little clarification.

As for the new helmet rules, I agree with them. Honestly, I'd get rid of spun tops completely; we have better technology.

Mord.
Well, I received an answer. I think I'll stick with sword and shield.

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Post by Ulric »

I can understand limiting true "mass" weapons to <=6 ft, but what is the reasoning behind no queue spike?
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Post by Sir Tristen Sexwulf »

OMG!
Sorry for the length of this one. I'll try and address each in turn:

Ok. First, Logan, you rabble rouser :roll:
I meant weapons designed to "punch holes" not Punching as in boxing.
Weapons such as Mauls, Military Picks, Lucerne Hammers, Bec-de-corbin, etc.

Also dual long swords is also period (see: Miyamoto Musashi for reference)
Although I agree that it was not likely a tourney form of Europe but then again neither was melee tourney on foot.


Second: Ekkehard der Hunnen
Fiberglass spears need one end to be capped or covered in such a way that they can be easily accessed to inspect the thickness of the fiberglass to see that it is legal. This is and was spelled out under the spear regulations and is why you cannot have a double ended fiberglass spear. As to Rattan spears double ended was legal until now. The SEM, against my council, decided that he didn't want double ended spears. So now we don't. Hopefully he will change this policy some day.
:sad:


Third, William de Faleston
The 6' mass weapons thing comes from complaints about the small talhoffer heads out on the end of 7.5' poles and from the Galliger Watermelon smashing war hammers. Same goes for "Some Axe Designs" if the weapon is an axe some with a small head the KEM may use the mass weapon rule head to bar it from the field at over 6' if the axe head is overly large (giant fantasy double bladed battle axe) the KEM may use the mas weapon rule to keep it 6' and under. If the Axe head is a Voulge or halberd with sufficient surface area and light weight that the KEM feels it is safe to call a slashing/cutting pole arm then he can call it a pole arm and let it go at 7.5'.

Also, ALL WEAPONS KILL TO THE HIPS AND SHOULDERS EXCEPT 1-HANDED SWORDS AND THRUSTS. 2-Handed swords are not mass weapons either but they kill hips and shoulders unless you let go with one hand then they wound hips and shoulders. There is some kingdom variation thrusts but typically the standard is that thrusts only wound hips and shoulders regardless of what type of weapon did the thrusting.


Next, Vladimir

Those questions are up to your KEM and depend on what he feels is safe.
All those are types of polearms and can have tail spikes. the only question is what length your KEM is comfortable with.


And finally, Ulric.
Mass weapons that could be called polearms may have butt spikes.
This wording was chosen to prevent people using tail spikes on short 1-handed weapons.
For example: We did not want someone fighting with a 30" mace and shields claims that he could put 2-hands on the mace and therefore it is a two handed weapon held in one hand with a butt spike.
However, Polearm imply length. This rule gives the marshals the ability to tell the axe guy, no dude that is a hand axe so no tail spike.
All for Chivalry,

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From Sir Omarad the Wary - Society Earl Marshal

Post by Sir Tristen Sexwulf »

Sir Tristen:
My duties preclude me from spending the time on The Armor Archive that would be necessary to answer the posts put there. I rarely have the time with 19 Kingdoms and the cornucopia of disciplines that fall under this office. It's like wrangling cats.
I quickly scanned over some of the posts and here are a few things I'd like everyone to read, discuss if you'd like.
Unfortunately I cannot follow all the threads but you are so good about sending me summaries. (Thanks for volunteering! :D )

1. When the Marshallate writes, changes, or clarifies a rule we do so with several factors in mind. We must balance safety with authenticity as well as adjust everything to fit the scope of the SCA's vast time period as well as myriad of cultures. We must also write things in a way that offers flexibility to create weapons or act in a manner that everyone will come to a consensus of understanding on. This allows us all to be playing different historical emulations but yet all know what the other guy is doing in some context.
We also must write rules for everyone. This means simple, easy language that a new guy in a small group that's just getting started in the middle of nowhere as well as the Super Duke from the Barony of Megalopolis with 3 ex-KEM's in it. People should be able to understand our rules and weapon construction solely from reading the Marshal's handbook. It's a difficult task to balance all that out but we try.

2. The job of the Earl Marshal is two-fold.
(a quote from Corpora, the governing document of the SCA)
D. The Earl Marshal The Earl Marshal is responsible for overseeing the conduct of all martial arts activities, including but not
limited to tournament lists, wars, combat archery, and fencing, as well as such related activities as scouting and target archery. The Earl Marshal bears primary responsibility for promoting both the safety and the authenticity of the martial arts in the kingdom, but works with other officers in their areas of mutual interest.
So, for those that profess a philosophy of "safety only" rules. Sorry. We are required to take these other things in to consideration as we grow as a sport.

3. Some of the language in the rules is specific and MUST be taken in the intent it was written. For example. The word "contiguous" was my choice for use when trying to explain in the rules that a mace made of 100% rattan needed to be made of a single solid piece. Not glued together pieces, not filled full of rubber, lead, broken glass, rebar, dirt, rocks, baby food, alligator teeth, etc...
the natural mechanics of rattan work for this weapon only if unaltered other than shaping and taping. It no way impacts polearms or other weapons made with differing techniques. It is rattan mace specific.

4. READ the rules. Don't trust what other folks have said. Verify. Also, read all the way through the rules. They are segmented into classes and are weapon specific. Never assume. Ask your Kingdom Earl Marshal if not sure.

5. Follow the rules. Trying to find sneaky loopholes in the rules to prove how smart you are is very annoying and should have ended in Middle School. If there is a loophole, bring it to the attention of the Marshallate through official channels and I can issue a policy interpretation that will explain or clarify it or change it after consultation with the KEM's.
Also, those of you who are experienced, peers, leaders of men. Be an example and abide by the rules. Those that follow you and do not have your wisdom or experience look to you for guidance. If you don't like something.. too bad. All of us have a few of the rules or their application that we do not like. Myself included. But too bad. Get inspected, have your weapons inspected before battles. Wear the armor that we are all required to wear. Period.
We all share a bit of trust in our opponents in that they follow the rules and in that there is inherent safety. When you cheat or do not follow the agreed upon guidelines (by taking the field you are agreeing to the rules that day) then you are putting someone else at risk. Nothing is more cowardly and unchivalrous than putting someone else at risk to give yourself an advantage. Fighting in the SCA is not a right, it's a privilege that our private club allows. I have no problem with my KEM's giving folks some "reflective time" away from fighting to let them dwell on how much they enjoy this sport.
Also, be part of the system rather than just constantly commenting on it. Marshal inspections at a war, run an event, hold an office. Create change from the inside. We can use the help.
Keep the helpful commentary coming, contact your KEM with questions as they arise if there isn't any clarification here, and email me with any really good short changes to language that gets the same effect across. I'm just a human, not infallible. I can take polite advice. :)
Happy hunting,
-Omarad
-SEM
All for Chivalry,

Sir Tristen Sexwulf
Earl Marshal of Æthelmearc
“Quicumque est necesse pro malum praevaleo est pro bonus hominum efficio nihil.â€
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Ceddie
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Post by Ceddie »

I have an alternate idea for a rules modification that should make almost everyone happy…

“If you can demonstrate that you can use it safely and can show some reference to a passing similarity to a medieval counter part, you can use it. If you hurt someone, be prepared to take a break.â€
Eddie Costello
(SCA-Cedric the Just of Dorchester)
--or--
Ceddie
---------------
WATONGO!
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Edward MacTavish
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Post by Edward MacTavish »

Sir Tristen Sexwulf wrote:OMG!

Also dual long swords is also period (see: Miyamoto Musashi for reference)
Although I agree that it was not likely a tourney form of Europe but then again neither was melee tourney on foot.

Sir Tristen I encourage you to open some history books and research the second half of this statement. As a start you could look to the very widely know works of Frossart. There is also a Breton Lay entitled "The Combat of the Thirty" that has some information on the topic.

Edward
Sir Edward Lindey, Knight of the Drawn Sword. ACL/BotN 2012

Saint Hubert's Rangers

Men of steel, in suits of iron forged legends of valour untarnished by time.

Argent, a boar statant and on a chief gules an arrow Or
MariaAgrissa
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Post by MariaAgrissa »

Mord wrote:
Mord wrote:I have asked for more information on these rules, but in general I think they need a little clarification.

As for the new helmet rules, I agree with them. Honestly, I'd get rid of spun tops completely; we have better technology.

Mord.
Well, I received an answer. I think I'll stick with sword and shield.

Mord.
Yup. SEM was pretty rude to Mord in his response. One of the most unchivalrous things I've seen in a long time. And that's saying something!

One pissed off wife,
Maria A.S.
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Aaron
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Post by Aaron »

:( So sword-and-shield is legal, everything else is questionable. :(

I would like to say something rude now. But I won't.

-Aaron
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Sir Tristen Sexwulf
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Post by Sir Tristen Sexwulf »

MacTavish wrote:
Sir Tristen Sexwulf wrote:OMG!

Also dual long swords is also period (see: Miyamoto Musashi for reference)
Although I agree that it was not likely a tourney form of Europe but then again neither was melee tourney on foot.

Sir Tristen I encourage you to open some history books and research the second half of this statement. As a start you could look to the very widely know works of Frossart. There is also a Breton Lay entitled "The Combat of the Thirty" that has some information on the topic.

Edward
I will do that. Thanks.
I love two weapon (my best form) and I get tired of defending it. Other than late period japan I have trouble finding two weapon of similar weapons. I find sword and spear, sword breaker,main gauche, dagger and so on.
If you have European references for dual longsword please send them to me. I would be very interested.
Thanks again.
All for Chivalry,

Sir Tristen Sexwulf
Earl Marshal of Æthelmearc
“Quicumque est necesse pro malum praevaleo est pro bonus hominum efficio nihil.â€
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Sir Tristen Sexwulf
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Post by Sir Tristen Sexwulf »

I am sorry to hear about Mord's treatment.
I know that omarad is frustrated about how decisions made with what he felt was the cobcensus of the KEM's from meetings and from our online private forums are now being questioned and argued against. He did not make these changes without consulting the KEM's. Yet his phone & email has exploded with complaints and accusations.
So, yea. He is grumpy.
I am not in any way excusing or condoning his behavior. I am just trying to explain it.
All for Chivalry,

Sir Tristen Sexwulf
Earl Marshal of Æthelmearc
“Quicumque est necesse pro malum praevaleo est pro bonus hominum efficio nihil.â€
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