The Armour Archive

Legal or not?

Start posting pictures and we can all start debating.

Legal or not?

Last one? Yes. I know the maker (Master Glendour), and the owner. It is a "grotesque" style close-helm. Danse Macabre, if you prefer.

[img]http://www.danse-macabre.net/image/Danse_Macabre/Heidelberger/11_Heidelberger_Totentanz_Danse_Macabre_Dance_of_Death_Dansa_de_la_Mort_Dornai.jpg[/img]

The Dark Victory plastic suit? Completely covered (individual plates- not just a large tabard) in either fabric, or napalm.

Of all the pics posted Number 1 would not be legal it exceeds the limit for Mass Weapons.
Number 2 fine
number 3 fine
Number 4 without having in hand and knowing the metal/specs it's built on I'm going to go with Legal

I got a weird feeling if you say this is not legal...a higher pitched voice will emmit from the helm....

"Silence! I kill you!"

I don't know anymore. Things have gotten so damn convoluted.

Are those halberds considered mass weapons or two handed cutting weapons?

So the "Mario-Brother's" hammers are not OK, but the historical pollaxes are? I'm OK with that, so far. But these new rules are a bit odd IMO.

More photo questions:

I think the Mario bros. hammer should be legal ONLY if it has a squeaky toy in it that makes noise when it strikes.

Aaron wrote:Legal or not?

Start posting pictures and we can all start debating.

Just to be clear, what are we commenting on in this first pic? Are we calling the blow or commenting on those ridiculous Ansteorran hammers? Or am I missing something else?

Greenshield

Don't diss the clown hammers. Ladt time I was at GW, I had to pick one up, and I managed to bonk a few guys on the noggin before they finally got me.

Restated (more clearly if I can):

I'm trying to translate the written rules into pictures.

Legal weapons vs. illegal weapons vs. marshal's judgement call (could go either way).

With thanks,

-Aaron

Ah its all illegal Aaron, I say we get together, grab some rebated weapons and bash the hell out of each other. Full body targets except no stabbing at the face. I don't want us to have to add mesh behind our eye slots.

What say you?

Edward

I'm game. But we're a LONG way away from each other. And there is the rub.

The best group I've seen is Japan, but that's a LONG way away.

Aaron wrote:Restated (more clearly if I can):

I'm trying to translate the written rules into pictures.

Legal weapons vs. illegal weapons vs. marshal's judgement call (could go either way).

With thanks,

-Aaron

As someone who deals with these tragic creations quite regularly I can say they fail by the new rules in 3 separate sections:

VII. Weapon Standards
A. General
14. NO MASS WEAPON SHALL EXCEED 6' (1.8288 m ) IN LENGTH.

-These things are over 6ft in length. They have to be to be effective.

C. Two-Handed Weapons.
4. No weapon may have a cutting and/or smashing surface at both ends. ONLY POLEARMS AND GREATSWORDS MAY HAVE BUTT/POMMEL SPIKES.

-I have seen them with butt-spikes. *this can not be seen in the above pic

XVIV. Glossary
B. Weapons
Mass weapons: maces, SOME axes DESIGNS, war hammers, or other weapons designed primarily to crush or punch holes (on account of the weight of the real weapons), rather than primarily to cut (on account of sharp edges on the real weapon). Maximum length for TWO-handed mass weapons is 6’ (1.8288 m ).

-Once again, they exceed 6ft in length.

In addition, if they existed in reality they would be too heavy to lift by most people nor to wield properly.

At least, that's how I see them failing the new rules.

GreenShield

Why would a maul (in period) had to have been metal? Banded wooden heads on wooden handles were actually used. I say that is an accurate representation of a wooden maul, not saying SCA legal, just coulda really happened.

Varyag, go get a 4 inch diameter piece of hard wood that is about 8 inches long. That looks about right for the pictures.

Now, tie or tape it to the end of a 6 ft dowel rod.

Move far away from people and glass windows.

Try to wield it. Like you would in a fight for your life, swing, recover, swing, recover.

Not so easy. They are too big to wield unless they are made of a completely ineffectual material (which all SCA weapons are of course). Hence they cannot simulate the look of a real weapon used in an actual fight.

Now, weapons designed to hang in the hall and impress visitors are a different matter entirely. As are tools used for driving post or stakes into the ground.

Your pollaxe depends on kingdom. Sir Tristen (for AE) has said he considers the talhoffer heads to be mass weapons, so 6' and no buttspike.

Oswyn_de_Wulferton wrote:Your pollaxe depends on kingdom. Sir Tristen (for AE) has said he considers the talhoffer heads to be mass weapons, so 6' and no buttspike.

Aaron wrote:

Oswyn_de_Wulferton wrote:Your pollaxe depends on kingdom. Sir Tristen (for AE) has said he considers the talhoffer heads to be mass weapons, so 6' and no buttspike.

Sorry, was that towards me, what the Aethelmearc KEM decided, or just the rule in general?

Rule in general. Not you.


Do pollaxes dominate the field so much we have to hamper them? It's historical and I haven't heard of any injuries due to a buttspike.

I don't like it.

Well I am sure should be banned for being non-historical fantasy weapons..

I say this because they used to be closer to 7 foot in length, but then I was watching Conan the Destroyer (really) and there were some really short oversized axes, and I thought it would be a hoot to cut the pole-axes down to 5 foot or so. They are really useless in action, but good fun against someone else using the same thing...

Vitale

Varag..stop interjecting logic into the SCA...

Varyag wrote:Why would a maul (in period) had to have been metal? Banded wooden heads on wooden handles were actually used. I say that is an accurate representation of a wooden maul, not saying SCA legal, just coulda really happened.

SirVitale wrote:I say this because they used to be closer to 7 foot in length, but then I was watching Conan the Destroyer (really) and there were some really short oversized axes, and I thought it would be a hoot to cut the pole-axes down to 5 foot or so. They are really useless in action, but good fun against someone else using the same thing...

Vitale

Actually there's a massive debate about how long pollaxes used to be. General consensus is that they varied in length from about 5 ft to 8 ft. Remember that shorter weapons are only a disadvantage if your armour doesn't work. If you can trust your armour to get you closer then a shorter weapon will make your enemies longer one ineffective.

Vladimir wrote:

Varyag, go get a 4 inch diameter piece of hard wood that is about 8 inches long. That looks about right for the pictures.

Now, tie or tape it to the end of a 6 ft dowel rod.

Move far away from people and glass windows.

Try to wield it. Like you would in a fight for your life, swing, recover, swing, recover.

Not so easy. They are too big to wield unless they are made of a completely ineffectual material (which all SCA weapons are of course). Hence they cannot simulate the look of a real weapon used in an actual fight.

Now, weapons designed to hang in the hall and impress visitors are a different matter entirely. As are tools used for driving post or stakes into the ground.

To be sure my Lord, I agree, the maul is not exactly what I would choose for the best weapon if I had to fight for my life in a period conflagration, but how many peasants got to choose the "best" weapon?

The maul, like many other agricultural implements, made it to the field.

The context in which I read about it being used was by Welsh bowmen who carried them to be used for driving poles in the ground in front of their positions, and also for driving the heads of wounded men into the ground just like poles.

Plus there was that dude from Conan.

If you're a pillar of stone, you effin' die.

A while back there was a member who posted a shovel for his weapon. He was a Roman persona and as an engineer it would be perfectly feasible to be caught with it. As a marshal as long as a stout blow with the blade could be given I could see it being called a mass weapon. (for a war scenario only)

For the maul debate though, think of it this way. Honestly using a maul / sledge it isn't realistic to be using one with a handle 6' much less 9' long. Honestly driving stakes with that is ludicrous. try it if you don't believe. So a maul or sledge as you are deigning to call it by what it was used for before you were "ambushed" and forced to fight with it great, use it, call it a "farming" sledge, but make the head and handle length reasonably sized so that once you are done hitting people over the head you could use it to drive your tent stakes in.

Proxus wrote:A while back there was a member who posted a shovel for his weapon. He was a Roman persona and as an engineer it would be perfectly feasible to be caught with it. As a marshal as long as a stout blow with the blade could be given I could see it being called a mass weapon. (for a war scenario only)

as I recall that was Owen.