How Ought a Bannerer to be Armed and Equipped?

[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

If you're going have one of your team carry a flag into combat, what would be the best way to equip them? What weapon(s) should they carry? Should they carry a shield? Are there any other recommendations in this area?

This includes the design and construction of the flag itself, and the staff.

I'm mostly hoping for responses from those with experience as bannerers or who have seen bannerers in SCA or related combat. I've also a thread in Interpretive Re-Creation asking how a bannerer ought to behave in battle.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Are they an honor guard, a rally point or for signaling? Going after a particular time period / culture in the "flavor" of the position?

These will help narrow things down.


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[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

I've seen the first two. I have not seen banners used for signaling.

I'm thinking mostly of the rally-point banner, though - one that's part of an active unit, not one standing well behind the battle line looking impressive. I've seen a Kingdom's Grand Standard used in that way, with a bannerer and a pair of guards. That's a wholly different idea from what I'm looking for.

I'm not so concerned about the purely historical aspect; that's in a different thread. I'm looking for "practical" advice and experience. I have some ideas of my own, but I'm wanting to get input from others before I air my ideas.

[Gryffinclaw]

Good topic as we have a banner bearer and use pennants on all our unit spears.

Full gauntlets. Resist the urge to make a shield banner combo as this is often hard to wield. Teach the banner bearer to block with the banner pole when needed. Don't make the banner a large spear as it will simply get torn up and tangled. Arm the bearer with a sheathed side arm or some other secondary weapon so that they have it when needed but can use both hands to control the banner.

Consider a banner taller than your spear regulations so that it stands out but not taller than your kingdom banner pole as that would be disrespectful. Check you kingdom sumptuary laws to see if there are any guidelines for banners.

As far as behavior if your banner will be the rally point then they need to be taught to follow any exploit, yell rally a lot and to be the last man to stay alive.

good luck and post some pictures.

regards

Troy

[Rodney]

Our banner bearer (on the admittedly few occasions we actually used one) was in the second rank with the spears. The banner pole was a list-legal 9' spear with our unit banner attached as you would a flag (e.g. no crossbar). Thus, he was basically fighting single sword and blocking with the spear. It worked very well for pageantry, but practically speaking I’d rather have that fighter poking with the spear.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

I agree w/ Troy-

As a rally point, a banner big eoungh to be seen but not become a hinderence. Banner pole made of RATTAN or fiberglass for a spear - if it is going to be used to actively block.

Full Gauntlets for both hands. A sword, mace, etc at the belt.

A surcoat/tunic/baldric etc. to match the banner as part of the position.

Training them to yell RALLY and REPEAT COMMANDS.

Assign a shieldman to protect them. Make this a big deal too.



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[D. Sebastian]

For me,
The banner is an inverted spear.
A hilted sword in the strong hand complements it well.
The gauntlet is important incase you loose the banner arm, then you can swap.

The banner is a big skinny shield.
The bearer should practice often singles and meelie fighting sword and inverted spear (I get a lot of kills with the spear point).

The bearer must be careful not to be blinding friends (behiend) and foes (afront) with the banner.

The banner will tear. Crazy glue is very good for field repairs on silk.

Leading the charge with a baner is epic, but often ends ... um.. "gloriously"!
(You are a glorious target.)
Your friends can get a lot of kills on people (who become myopic and)targeting you) if they play it right.

Some pics:
http://mattyds.com/mattyd_pics/d.seb-banner.gif
http://honorblade.com/pics/2007/07-Penn ... ld1-01.jpg
http://honorblade.com/pics/2007/07-Penn ... arge-1.jpg
http://honorblade.com/pics/2007/07-Penn ... arge-2.jpg
http://honorblade.com/pics/2007/07-Penn ... arge-3.jpg
http://honorblade.com/pics/2007/07-Penn ... arge-4.jpg
http://honorblade.com/pics/2007/07-Penn ... arge-5.jpg
http://honorblade.com/pics/2008/2008-pe ... ld-003.jpg
http://honorblade.com/pics/2008/2008-pennsic-red.jpg

[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

A Related Question . . .

How big should a unit be before you can justify a bannerer?

[D. Sebastian]

Depends on the banner.

Is the banner for a household?
Fighting company?
Formal territory of the SCA?

Are you carrying if for yourself?
For some bigwig?
Or as a Signal for the Army's general to know where his flank is?

I've carried HRH Duke Lucan's Duchy banner when it's been him, me and one other fighter on the field, as well as it's been with an additional 40+ members of the duchy on the field.

Maybe a better questions for you is - how many guys do you got?

[Violen]

Our King Attached the Calontir/Ansteorra Alliance flag to his spear.

Then he went into the ravine battle and smited the foul trimarins like sauron at the beginning of The Fellowship of the Ring.


Can someone post a pic of him in that battle. It was totally epic.

[Rodney]

A Related Question . . .

How big should a unit be before you can justify a bannerer?

At one time we had 20 authorized fighters and could field 12-15 at an event. This is more than enough guys to spare one for a banner position.
Ten years later ageing, injuries, attrition and job relocations have taken their toll and now we field 4-5 at an event, thus no banner bearer.

[Balin50]

Been said a couple of times but if you have a Banner then it should be a banner. It should be flying above your unit as much as possible. So Banners on spears that will be used as spears are right out (inverted spear is ok)

Balin

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Assholes will just try to destroy your banner. Have a banner carrier follow you until the moment the lines clash, then have your carrier carry it back to a safe place.

[InsaneIrish]

RULE #1! (and I can't say this enough)

Do NOT make your banner so damned big that it blinds the bearer while he holds it.

There NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING worse than to be the last guy standing, standing against an oncoming mass of enemy troops. You are there all alone, ready to make your heroic last stand..........Only to have the wind pick up and blow that fucking banner right into your eyes/helm blinding you from the spear shot that hits you in the gut.

I know from experience.


As to construction?

Silk painted banner in a long pennon style tied to a 9ft SCA spear.
Reason:
Make the pennon long enough that the bearer can grab it with his for hand while using the spear in battle.

[Nissan Maxima]

Banner bearer is an honour. You would have to literally kill my goon Yngvar to get that banner off him. he kills lots of guys with that flagpole. The pointy end is away from the banner.

[Nissan Maxima]

Or you can have it on a different kind of weapon.

[chris19d]

MLRS?

[Saritor]

MLRS?

I don't think it has enough progressive give, but I could see how the marshals might be intimidated in to letting it on the field.

[D. Sebastian]

Its period - in a David Drake novel.

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

One of my favorite pics from Pennsic 38!!

At Pennsic 39, Dorothea carried the banner and when she needed to she spun the spear enough to wrap the banner around the pole.

[MTNScout]

I believe it was mentioned earlier but the banner bearer should be the last man standing in a melee. In the event that the original banner bearer gets killed it should be the 'duty' of the unit to recover the banner at all costs. Often times one of the most serious blows that can be dealt to a unit is to take thier banner.

(I know my Cav unit liked to 'borrow' the Infantry guy's guidons and make outrageous ransom demands)

Something the Military does which might be interesting is the idea of 'campaign streamers.' Say for example your unit participated in Pennsic (Insert random number) and performed exceptionaly well, maybe your Baron/Crown could give your group a streamer or other trophy to display on thier standard to strike fear in the hearts of your enemies!

Here's a bit more info on the Military's current banners (we call em guidons or colors these days).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guidon_(United_States)

[Eirik]

Our banner carrier wore a white riding tabard and carried nothing but our flag. We'd rally to her when we regrouped.

[AndrescalledAJ]

Tip: Find that loud pain in the a$$ with the deafening laugh and make them carry it. It makes them feel all big and bad and people who are naturally loud (like me) don't have to work as hard to do rally cries.

I saw a guy at War this year yell a rally cry with such strength fighters two bridges over heard him.

As for weapons I always recommend dangle maces.

[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

I had this idea that a bannerer could carry a buckler, mounted on soft straps so the user could grasp it and the flagstaff simultaneously.

Any thoughts or opinions about that idea?

[D. Sebastian]

Tried it.
It's cumbersome.

Sword and inverted spear is a viable style.
Try it!

[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

Actually, it seems rather like the "Crusader" or "Christian Madu" style. I used to carry a short sword as a backup when fighting spear. And I used to have a buckler that I'd wear on my left hand. Both the sword and the buckler have gone away. But part of the idea was that if the situation got too tight to use the spear, I could hold the spear vertical and draw the short sword so I'd have a long, skinny shield.

Mainly, I am and was concerned about taking shots to the hand while using a banner pole defensively.

[owen matthew]

I have had the honor of carrying the kingdom banner for The West for two kings, and for the Principality of the Mists for two princes in the past three years.

I have always used it on a 9' spear, at the top, about 12'' down from the point of the weapon. I use it like a spear if I am fighting with it, I sometimes roll it up as I enter the fight. I also carry a 14'' dagger that I pair the flag with every time I go out. Then I use the flag as a thin shield, and stab away with the dagger... you would be amazed at how many people will fall for the dagger! At times I kill many more with it, than the spear.

I try to act as a rally point on the field, stand with the ruler, respectfully, am a rally point before battles and after them as well. If I can blind or kill for or take a shot for the ruler, I feel like I am doing my job well during the fight. I go where the ruler goes, if he is dead I try to be at the front. I try to be on the field before the respective ruler, and last there until the final battle ends. I have witnessed, first hand, people run to the flag, and do crazy things while I waved it from the front... it can be a very inspiring job!

On the Warfield I always use the banner on a spear with a dagger. On the tournament field and practice I use a painted depiction of the banner on my shield, with permission!

I feel like every banner bearer should be above reproach on any field, always. They should be an example of chivalry and the virtues and especially the ideals the flag stands for. You should BE the embodiment of these considerations. Much harder to do than to say.

My flags have been made of silk, and generally will not last through a reign. All of the Kings and Princes I have served seem to appreciate the fact that it is used excessively in combat, and worn from that combat, rather than remain pristine.

[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

You might be interested in what I found and posted in a related thread in Historical Research.