The Armour Archive

I hear from people that great helms are somewhat hindering to fight in, yet a fair ammount of people use them anyways.
Do they just take getting used to, or is there some non-obvious advantage to them?

They look cool?

It looks better than a spun-dome on a guy otherwise dressed for 1350-1400? (Well, with the exception of those Irish helms from 1400. Those are just awesome.)

EDIT: There's not really any sport advantage for SCA combat that you couldn't otherwise get from a bar grill on a bascinet.

Its just a matter of getting used to them, there's no real disadvantage IMHO. The advantage is that your enemy can't see the majority of your face. Just my 2c



marcus

I wear one. For me the advantages are twofold: 1) they're historically correct for the period I am portraying, and 2) (biggest consideration) they're cheap.

JoJo Zerach wrote:I hear from people that great helms are somewhat hindering to fight in, yet a fair ammount of people use them anyways.
Do they just take getting used to, or is there some non-obvious advantage to them?

Depends entirely on the person in it. I know a guy with a weird sight thing.. he CAN NOT see through a bar grille. However, you put eyeslots on him, and he's like a hawk.

are you comfortable in dark, enclosed spaces with iffy airflow?

When made _right_ you can have great visibility, and fairly good airflow, as well as good looks and whacking great protection. When done wrong, they can be the utter reverse of that.

As with anything, there is no "one size fits all". (Course, I've _never_ been able to wear an "off the rack" helmet comfortably, either.)

A lot depends on how the helm is constructed.
Years ago the top of most greathelms was absolutly flat.

search for a thread called "fighting in a closed helm" or something to that effect. Its was under medieval combat and weapons. That goes into this topic quite well.

General opinion is they are not worse than a bar grill just different, ONLY when they fit right. Fit wrong, and they suck. I've fought in a closed helmet almost my entire fighting career, and have found certain advantages, none of which significant enough to worth mentioning right now. I can say they work just fine though.

Cheers,

JoJo Zerach wrote: Is there an advantage to fighting in a great helm?

Yes. You look like a complete and utter badass.

Broadway wrote:

JoJo Zerach wrote: Is there an advantage to fighting in a great helm?

Yes. You look like a complete and utter badass.

Lol.
I think I'd actually prefer an eye slit to open bars, having long narrow objects close to my face makes my head hurt, for some reason!

Horrible experience from early childhood? Where you an alter boy?

JoJo Zerach wrote:Lol.
I think I'd actually prefer an eye slit to open bars, having long narrow objects close to my face makes my head hurt, for some reason!

I want some sort of filter on this so I never have to read Broadway's comments.

Another advantage, if you think of this way, is that you have a better idea of the first target your opponent will swing for. Get a flat top can and and wait for someone to refer to it as a "landing pad." Next time you are paired up against him, lean forward slightly, wiggle your head, and wait for lay on. Betcha he's aiming right at that flat top. If you know his first shot, you can counter it without thinking about it.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

I fight in a great helm, by the way. Still new to being back on the field, but I've never had a bar grill. I notice how many other guys look like chipmunks with their chinstraps squeezing their cheeks into funny shapes and I'm glad my own silly face is hidden. Hey, that's yet another benefit! Who wants to get whooped on by Secret Squirrel?

-Patrick

not sure if it is an advantage but bar grills are heavier then sheet steel.

losthelm wrote:A lot depends on how the helm is constructed.
Years ago the top of most greathelms was absolutly flat.

Thanks for all the input...
This got me thinking though, has anyone seen CAS Hanwei's greathelm in person?
I like the price, though in the stock photos, it just looks way to wide/flat.

JoJo Zerach wrote:I hear from people that great helms are somewhat hindering to fight in, yet a fair ammount of people use them anyways.
Do they just take getting used to, or is there some non-obvious advantage to them?

If you are asking closed face helm instead of simply bargrill, then yes. A pic of mine is below.

First, they hide your face and make it harder to see facial and/or eye movements. I don't quite understand it...maybe it's a shadow thing? But for some reason people have a harder time seeing my face (obvious) and eyes. I can take quick glances in any direction and people don't seem to pick up on it. I think people assume that I have to move my head to see anything b/c of the helmet.

Second, my helm (and every other rounded or angled non bar grill helm) makes spears not stick. It took me some time to get used to...I used to get gaked with spears but now they don't have the traction of the bars I think (which was difficult...now I call stuff that feels like it skips).

And third, as everyone else has said, it looks simply bad ass (and mine apparently like an armored ninja turtle).

Beyond being period appropriate?

They look cool.
You can make one yourself without a welder.
They look cool.
The are cheap.
They look cool.
In some tournies (like Cot30) a thrust to a closed face is considered proof or maybe 1 hit when counting blows but a thrust to a bar-grill is quick death.
oh and they look cool.

When I'm King (ha ha, yeah, right after the lottery and the powered exoskeleton armor) Closed face helms, occular regions of partially open helms and grills covered by maile will be proof from single-handed thrusts and maybe even 2 handed thrusts. (compared to east of the Mississippi rules for face calibration. You guys who full calibrate thrusts to the back and sides of heads are NUTS. My kind of nuts but still nuts! ) I consider it a sign of chivalry (in the modern fair-sport etiquete) to allow mild compensation for the lack of the sport advantage, even if it is a recognized period sport advantage, because the period decision was made after considering the risk of injury but in modern sport fighting it is not.

Oh, and Cisco is right in that mane face thrusts will slide but there are some from certain angles that will really want to twist your neck. That happened to me in my closed helm with the sparrow-beak visor.

YMMV.
Sean

I tend to telegraph with my facial expressions, something I have not been able to overcome. A great helm with narrow oculars removes most of this advantage I was giving my opponents. My helm was made very similar to a Pembridge, and when I first started wearing it, it seemed like most blows to my head were "skippy". I asked my knight to watch me, as I never want to slough off a good blow.

When I came back he was grinning, and said "Put your helm on that stool, and come over here and look at it. It's like a stealth fighter, every piece of it is an angle or slight curve. You aren't rhino-hiding, that helm is doing it's job and glancing a lot of blows."

Of course with the 3/8" ocular I preferred for a more historic appearance, I got hit in the legs more.

One of the things that I noticed is this. There are alot of flicky tippy shots that get aimed at your eyes. These shots are thrown by people who are used to round and arch shaped helmets. Ones that come infrom the top get caught on the corner of your helmet (I had a pot helm) and are no good as they aren't hard enough for anywhere but the face.
I would second what people have said about hiding facial expressions. For me it was hiding being annoyed with people. My knight used to say that I would say the polite thing but my face would say "F U".
The closed face helm helped this alot.
Thanks,
Brennainn

And when you paint them black, none shall pass...

and most injuries are just flesh wounds...

You can put a mini-fridge and a window AC unit in there with you, I hear.

spearweasel wrote:You can put a mini-fridge and a window AC unit in there with you, I hear.

"Victualled as well as fortified, you might endure a siege!"

-- Charles II, approximately