WMA video's

[Peikko]

It is disappointing to me the unfriendly lines of division between perspectives within the martial arts community. In my book, WMA is a long overdue newcomer to the MA world.

I've heard tell there are some heated debates among the WMA community about interpretations. This is not surprising, as seems to be the same among many other areas of study.

I admit that I'm not heavily involved in that community but have had some exposure to it. Getting into embroiled debates where egos play a prominent role has no interest for me, but studying in earnest does.

Therefore, I applaud works which contribute to the research because it is a crucial piece of our history. It would be wonderful to see it restored.

Your initial post sounded, to me, as though you were dismissive of our efforts in studying, decoding and resurrecting HEMA. However, I see that I was mistaken...my apologies.

With any field of study there will be disagreement over interpretations...but the key here is remembering to always study in earnest and fight with true martial intent.

[Sir Tristan]

No apologies necessary, Johann. It is difficult to convey full meaning via brief written posts, at least for me. I'm no talented writer.

Hopefully, I conveyed enough that the material interests me and it is good ground to cover - reconstructing this material. It is no easy task.

[DukeAvery]

Very interested, thank you.

Studies of authentic methods fascinate me (subject to available time etc), but doing the initial research is beyond my interests and a vast undertaking. My profuse thanks to those who do the work for us all to share and present it in the 'inspire' format. It seems to me that in the last few years the available information has really blossomed, or perhaps I've just started to notice but either way, it is ... wonderful.

Regards

Avery

Is anyone here interested in seeing some video of WMA stuff used in an SCA context?...

[Count Johnathan]

I'll watch the vids with interest. I have always wondered why any particular period technique wouldn't work in SCA fighting. After all other than the grappling and shin whacking there really are only so many ways to swing a sword.

It would be cool if you could list what techniques in particular are being used in each bout but I would understand if you don't. That would be quite a bit of work.

Post em soon, I want to see em.

[Ulric]

I'll watch the vids with interest. I have always wondered why any particular period technique wouldn't work in SCA fighting. After all other than the grappling and shin whacking there really are only so many ways to swing a sword.

Post em soon, I want to see em.

Mostly...sticks aren't swords, and don't act like swords.
Also.. SCA fighting is sort of a weird middle ground between armoured and unarmoured fighting.. ie: armour is not providing the protection it really would, but slices, draw cuts, etc.. that are effective vs. an unarmoured opponent don't work.

[Kilkenny]

[

Oh, and the source material isn't that hard to interpret...to say they are cryptic is a gross oversimplification.

mmm.. he says, grossly over simplifying...

They vary - a lot. And for someone like me who has to wait for them to be translated into English, we're playing telephone.

[Steven H]

Rest assured that many of us teaching HEMA are aware of the concerns that you have specified...it is a constant source of discussion and debate.

Oh, and the source material isn't that hard to interpret...to say they are cryptic is a gross oversimplification.

I want to second that first point. Please go to Sword Forum. It will numb your brain to read the discussions on this issue.

As to the second point, I want to elaborate: The Lichtenauer tradition has several dozen mansuscpripts with a total of over Four Thousand pages of material. Much of it is repetitive but that helps us. Didn't understand the first description of a technique, then just try the other two or three or four instances of it. And we have some really good prose and nice drawings with good anatomy and perspective in Meyer and Mair. Altogether a lot of solid resources.

The result of which is that the only big disagreements on Lichtenauer material these days are in the uncommon stuff.

Cheers,
Steven

[Payn]

I find, in my experience, that there is also a focus on technique. When trying to mix WMA techniques with the SCA, there will of course be techniques that will not work. However, part of the fun, for me, is to see if I can extrapolate the concept of technique and use it within the SCA.

Most fighters aren't going to experience much success doing it this way. However I find that high level SCA fighters are often times already applying certain concepts in movement and blocking, as a matter of course. Few of those fighters, however, have codified it into a complete system that naturally rolls from one to the next.

[Corby de la Flamme]

So then; allow grappling and throws, thrusts to the back and also remove the "90 degree view" attack limitations from your SCA combat practice before you dismiss period techniques. You might gain a different perspective, even within the rarified context that SCA athletic contest provides. Its easy to dismiss something you clearly know very little about, especially when it contradicts your hard won understanding of combat in the SCA.

While we're at it, we would need to get rid of open contests without weight classes and separation by sex. Or do you think it is a fine and equitable idea to have a 5'1", 100 lb. lady armor up against a 6'4", 400 lb. man for some grappling?

I've thought a great deal about what SCA combat does and does not allow. I really do think it allows everything it can while still allowing everyone to participate and to be reasonably sure that injuries are rare.

Shin shots? Banned for the same reason US football bans clipping. Imagine you're running at me at full tilt and I swing my 7.5 foot polearm at full speed into your ankle. You're going to go down, hard. You'll be lucky your knee isn't dislocated.

Grappling? It instantly becomes necessary to have weight classes, or it instantly dissuades everyone who isn't huge from ever joining. Say goodbye to half your army.

Hooking, pommel strikes, etc? Could probably be added without too much concern, but like grappling, things get harder for participants who arent Huge and strong. (Hard enough on them already!) It makes fishing for short people quite the sport in line engagements. And the "etc" here likely would require a significantly higher minimum armor level for safety, again raising the bar to participation.

Hitting from behind? eh. They do it out west. Seems to me it puts a premium on flank control and guys who can run like hell, but big deal.

Here's what I notice about the "SCA Rules suck" crowd:

Big strong dudes ("dude" used intentionally: always guys)
$2000+ worth of plate armor
Their videos of "real" technique (grapples, & hooks especially) look slow and rehearsed
If they didn't come from SCA, their shots lack refined delivery

When you say "we need to allow grappling/hooks/EXXXTREME whatsis please keep in mind you are also saying "the SCA needs to make it much harder for people to play, and we need to discourage everyone who is less than huge or fit or tough as nails from ever putting on a helm again."

[Tibbie Croser]

Sir Corby, you might be reading too much into Kel Rekuta's comment. I'm not sure he's saying that "SCA rules suck because the SCA doesn't allow X." I *think* he meant that, because the SCA repertoire of techniques is narrower than that of the period manuals, it's unfair for someone familiar only with SCA techniques to dismiss the value of the period manuals.

(By the way, Sir Corby, would you like to come over to the GirlsClub forum? It's not just for women fighters, it's also for men who train both female and male fighters. It sounds like you have experience training tiny women to hit as hard as big men in Atlantia, which would be worth sharing on the GirlsClub.)

[Kel Rekuta]

[

Oh, and the source material isn't that hard to interpret...to say they are cryptic is a gross oversimplification.

mmm.. he says, grossly over simplifying...

They vary - a lot. And for someone like me who has to wait for them to be translated into English, we're playing telephone.

Most of them already are, at this point. There are a couple realllllllllly cool ones that are too huge to tackle for many translators. Anonimo Bolognese has everything, literally everything about chivalric combat to some degree. Bit by bit, its being tackled too.
A major Portuguese work is currently in translation. Steve Hick could give more detail if he happens by here.

All the 14th & early - mid 15thC ones are done, AFAIK. There is plenty published material to work from, in English, for very modest prices. Most of them are little more costly than dinner and a movie for two.

[Sir Tristan]

It seems to me that the idea of adding grappling and more rigorous contact, which are exactly what period techniques entail, is much like a bunch of wrestlers who grapple all the time wanting to add knives and swords to their art. That may bring up a rather ridiculous image, but both modern wrestling and SCA fighting are hybrid sports with extremely limited rules for safe practice and playability.

Removing those rules, even in small yet significant parts such as grappling, introduces a much higher likelihood of injury. I'd say the wrestlers would be better prepared for what would happen than SCA fighters because impact with the ground is extremely damaging. Wrestlers train and condition for this kind of thing while SCA fighters do not.

Having experience in arts which involve driving and slamming opponents to the ground on a regular basis, I don't see how this could be included in SCA combat safely given the base level of skill and conditioning among SCA fighters. Only a few have the conditioning, experience and control to do it without a significant risk of inflicting or sustaining injury.

The point about size and weight of participants is valid too. Even among people of the same size, some just don't want to play that rough. The SCA already has a pretty high bar in terms of physicality and wear on the body.

[Swete]

Well, they should at least allow shin shots in one-on-one fighting...

[Kel Rekuta]

Thanks Flittie - you nailed it. And its just Kel - its my name not a persona.

Corby, since you are clearly somebody well experienced in the SCA it might be helpful to get you clued in to what I'm doing. (And what many others are.) I did SCA, I had fun. When I wanted to pursue my studies in daily life within my period of study - SCA fighting failed the test of relevance. Therefore it failed to retain my interest. Looking to period examples works in every other area of focus of medieval daily life, so why not get involved in the study of period combat treatises? It seemed logical and bluntly put, has been enormously more rewarding for me.

Your goals must be different than mine in this respect because this opportunity continues to elude you. You have to let go of the SCA-centric concept of medieval combat as the only game in town. Also, you really need to try some of the "other side" before you so readily dismiss it. No one - really NO ONE - is telling you to stop what you are doing - or change the environment you play in. What many of us are trying to pass along is that there is more out there - readily available to study. Don't dismiss it because you haven't seen it beyond discussion forae and YouTube.

BTW, I suspect your experience with these activities is based on YouTube videos - some of which might be early exploration of technique for some people. WMA/HEMA groups doing armour are few and far between. Many of them are just beginning to get comfortable with full speed, full contact fighting. At AEMMA, we always spar full speed, full contact in harness. We have to train at lower speed - we don't use the "Hit 'em 'til they learn better" model of training. We drill the plays until they work for each player.

That said there are some crappy YouTube videos from a couple of our tourneys. One is the latest AEMMA web-mercial. I assure you we don't pull shots, nor go slow regardless of how the original hi-res footage was treated by the YouTube compiler.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JctYiYsMk6w
And that's me on the bottom after my left knee popped.

A lot of people record our fighting - our in house folks shoot hi-res footage for internal review. (and amusement) It is simply too time consuming to convert that body of work into a format required to be dumbed down by the YouTube compiler. Sorry but it just isn't productive to spend our time and resources on that.

Hopefully you will get what I'm saying now?

[Peikko]

Not that it will make an ounce of difference...but I feel I should say it.

There is nothing wrong with combat in the SCA...Sir Corby is very right in his assessment: it is as safe as it can be, while allowing most people to be involved. So lets stop trying to change it...it already works for most folks.

Now for those of us for whom it doesn't quite work and want something else are free to go elsewhere and "play" using the rules (or lack there of) we see fit to utilise. We can do this informally among friends or formally as entirely new organisations...one single organisation doesn't have to fulfill all our needs. Ultimately though, it would behoove all of us to remember that none of these groups has all the answers or is in some fashion superior to the others.

(For the record those of us over on the HEMA side of this coin aren't out to destroy the SCA and I'm certain that the SCA isn't out to get us either. Although I'm sure we all feel like that is, at times, the case.)

ok...back to what y'all were saying...

[Kel Rekuta]

Tristan - spot on - absolute dead on the center mark!

[DukeAvery]

Thank you for saying this.

Not that it will make an ounce of difference...but I feel I should say it.

There is nothing wrong with combat in the SCA...Sir Corby is very right in his assessment: it is as safe as it can be, while allowing most people to be involved. So lets stop trying to change it...it already works for most folks.

Now for those of us for whom it doesn't quite work and want something else are free to go elsewhere and "play" using the rules (or lack there of) we see fit to utilise. We can do this informally among friends or formally as entirely new organisations...one single organisation doesn't have to fulfill all our needs. Ultimately though, it would behoove all of us to remember that none of these groups has all the answers or is in some fashion superior to the others.

(For the record those of us over on the HEMA side of this coin aren't out to destroy the SCA and I'm certain that the SCA isn't out to get us either. Although I'm sure we all feel like that is, at times, the case.)

ok...back to what y'all were saying...

[Milan H]

Absolutely true. I play in the SCA for years and have been running a HEMA study group as well. My only addition is that I really encourage SCA guys to look into the manuals. There is a lot of good stuff to be learned in there that WILL apply to our game.

Not that it will make an ounce of difference...but I feel I should say it.

There is nothing wrong with combat in the SCA...Sir Corby is very right in his assessment: it is as safe as it can be, while allowing most people to be involved. So lets stop trying to change it...it already works for most folks.

Now for those of us for whom it doesn't quite work and want something else are free to go elsewhere and "play" using the rules (or lack there of) we see fit to utilise. We can do this informally among friends or formally as entirely new organisations...one single organisation doesn't have to fulfill all our needs. Ultimately though, it would behoove all of us to remember that none of these groups has all the answers or is in some fashion superior to the others.

(For the record those of us over on the HEMA side of this coin aren't out to destroy the SCA and I'm certain that the SCA isn't out to get us either. Although I'm sure we all feel like that is, at times, the case.)

ok...back to what y'all were saying...

[Count Johnathan]

I'll watch the vids with interest. I have always wondered why any particular period technique wouldn't work in SCA fighting. After all other than the grappling and shin whacking there really are only so many ways to swing a sword.

Post em soon, I want to see em.

Mostly...sticks aren't swords, and don't act like swords.
Also.. SCA fighting is sort of a weird middle ground between armoured and unarmoured fighting.. ie: armour is not providing the protection it really would, but slices, draw cuts, etc.. that are effective vs. an unarmoured opponent don't work.

Well they act like swords enough to go through the motions and learn the techniques which is why nearly all of the shools of sword fighting in all sword fighting cultures used (and still use) wood wasters of some kind for training.

I understand that draw cuts and tip slashes are innefective in SCA rattan fighting but I am still interested in seeing what period techniques do work and why some of them that aren't shinwhacks, grappling, draw cut or tip slashing don't work.

I will watch with great interest.

[Leo Medii]

Here's what I notice about the "SCA Rules suck" crowd:


Big strong dudes ("dude" used intentionally: always guys)
$2000+ worth of plate armor
Their videos of "real" technique (grapples, & hooks especially) look slow and rehearsed
If they didn't come from SCA, their shots lack refined delivery

That is a pretty broad brush? I fight mainly SCA, and I think the rules are pretty poor, but for none of the reasons above.

And also in general-

In my case, my refined shot delivery decreased for SCA combat. SCA combat parameters at the high levels forced me to learn to use the sword in ways that work exceptionally well for touch baton combat, but no longer functioned for effective cutting technique on cutting tests.

Also, for the record, I have no intent to change anything about SCA combat or any such accord. I am just trying to learn historical technique and apply what I can to SCA combats. I thought people would be interested in seeing what our little crossover circle will come up with.
Also, I prefer to stick with facts and hard evidence regarding combat. I really, really hate the dick swinging and measuring about who is the badder ass, and who can fight the bestest. These people need to order some Extenze and take a car ride with Smilin Bob in his race car.

[Count Johnathan]

Here's what I notice about the "SCA Rules suck" crowd:


Big strong dudes ("dude" used intentionally: always guys)
$2000+ worth of plate armor
Their videos of "real" technique (grapples, & hooks especially) look slow and rehearsed
If they didn't come from SCA, their shots lack refined delivery

That is a pretty broad brush? I fight mainly SCA, and I think the rules are pretty poor, but for none of the reasons above.

And also in general-

In my case, my refined shot delivery decreased for SCA combat. SCA combat parameters at the high levels forced me to learn to use the sword in ways that work exceptionally well for touch baton combat, but no longer functioned for effective cutting technique on cutting tests.

Also, for the record, I have no intent to change anything about SCA combat or any such accord. I am just trying to learn historical technique and apply what I can to SCA combats. I thought people would be interested in seeing what our little crossover circle will come up with.
Also, I prefer to stick with facts and hard evidence regarding combat. I really, really hate the dick swinging and measuring about who is the badder ass, and who can fight the bestest. These people need to order some Extenze and take a car ride with Smilin Bob in his race car.

So you fight sloppy when doing rattan combat? Maybe that's your problem.

Aren't you the dude who shows off the pictures of his fabulous horse and expensive armour, and talks about how many ways you know to kill a man? I recall you talking about how you used to have the fancy sports car etc in the past if I'm not mistaken.

I will still watch with interest.

[Saritor]

I understand that draw cuts and tip slashes are innefective in SCA rattan fighting but I am still interested in seeing what period techniques do work and why some of them that aren't shinwhacks, grappling, draw cut or tip slashing don't work.

I will watch with great interest.

Meyer's German dusack is remarkably good in SCA combat, minus the obvious grappling techniques.

The commentary about the grappling is generally (from me, anyway) pointing out that folks saying period techniques don't work in SCA combat are ignoring that they're taking advantage of a stylized ruleset that wouldn't apply in a fight, or even in 16th century "sport fencing."

there's also some adjustment required moving from sword-shaped wasters (metal or wood) and rattan -- the block is somewhat different, since a rattan stick rebounds from impact rather than running off, as a sword would. your parry turns in to a bit of a punch rather than sword placement during a cut.

Hrm. That's a bit cludgy, description-wise. I know you're already well aware of rattan rebound, just hard to describe the sword-on-sword side of things, and the differences in the blocks/parries.

[Ulric]

In my case, my refined shot delivery decreased for SCA combat. SCA combat parameters at the high levels forced me to learn to use the sword in ways that work exceptionally well for touch baton combat, but no longer functioned for effective cutting technique on cutting tests.

So you fight sloppy when doing rattan combat? Maybe that's your problem.

Sticks. Aren't. Swords.

[Leo Medii]

Aren't you the dude who shows off the pictures of his fabulous horse and expensive armour, and talks about how many ways you know to kill a man? I recall you talking about how you used to have the fancy sports car etc in the past if I'm not mistaken.

Um, a lot of people post pics on here of their events, their kit, weapons, all kinds of stuff. You seem obsessed with this topic. If you think a Ford Probe is a fancy sports car, you have low standards. And, I prefer not to talk about actually killing folk, or that subject. Perhaps you are blending talking about martial techniques with your own need to feel more fulfilled as a martial artist?

I am sorry you feel inadequate. If covered by your health insurance, you should seek out therapy for these issues.

[Count Johnathan]

Ulric - I know I know but it doesn't mean one has to be less refined in their technique because they are using rattan is all I was saying.

Leo - sorry for the poke. I will still watch with interest. It was in humor. No need to get all bent and insulting about it.

I have no feeling of inadequacy dude. I'm quite narcissistic actually. I think I'm f-ing great if you couldn't tell.

[Leo Medii]

Ulric - I know I know but it doesn't mean one has to be less refined in their technique because they are using rattan is all I was saying.

Leo - sorry for the poke. I will still watch with interest. It was in humor. No need to get all bent and insulting about it.

I have no feeling of inadequacy dude. I'm quite narcissistic actually. I think I'm f-ing great if you couldn't tell.

Perhaps a smiley would have helped? The eye roll did not a humorous comment make.

And, I have no doubt you think you are great. Everyone should feel that way about themselves. I wish you could bottle it for those who need it!

[Ulric]

Ulric - I know I know but it doesn't mean one has to be less refined in their technique because they are using rattan is all I was saying.

Refined *rattan* techniques suffer if you are trying to practice *sword* techniques.

[Count Johnathan]

Ulric - I know I know but it doesn't mean one has to be less refined in their technique because they are using rattan is all I was saying.

Refined *rattan* techniques suffer if you are trying to practice *sword* techniques.

Not in my experience. I've not done the WMA thing but have done plenty of SCA style sword techniques with real sharp blades testing what does work and frankly swinging a sword and swinging a stick is very similar hence why people have used wood wasters throughout history to refine their sword techniques. Other than combinations that the bounce of a rattan sword allows, swinging a sword compared to a stick is not extremely different.

In any case the subtle differences that are being discussed here is why I will watch with great interest.

[jester]

I find the value of the manuscripts to be mostly in providing directed questions which force the student to think. The student profits not by aping the illustrations or descriptions, but by asking why? how? and when? and coming to an understanding that allows them create their own corpus of knowledge.

I'm glad the SCA provides so many venues for studying this and no longer makes it practically mandatory for people to join other organizations to do so.

[Signo]

Not in my experience. I've not done the WMA thing but have done plenty of SCA style sword techniques with real sharp blades testing what does work and frankly swinging a sword and swinging a stick is very similar hence why people have used wood wasters throughout history to refine their sword techniques. Other than combinations that the bounce of a rattan sword allows, swinging a sword compared to a stick is not extremely different.

You're right, if for you "swinging" a sword is the correct way to employ it, then it is absolutely the same thing.
The main thing of using a sword is not about swinging cuts and chops here and there, but using that tiny and fragile blade as an extension of your hand to defend yourself, put your opponent in a undefendable position and then hit him, possibly doing al this in two or three movements.
I think this is swordfighting, or medieval fencing if you want.

[Hotspur]

Time to add some data as the discussion is getting to stereotypes.

Just to put some numbers on it, looking at just one book (Fiore dei Liberi's Il Fior di Battaglia, the so-called Getty manuscript), doing a quick count of the 43 techniques for the sword in two hands (i.e. after pictures of guards, cuts, etc.)

3 represent crossings of the swords, from which the others are follow-ons

10 appear SCA-legal to my eyes (note: I am not SCA authorized)
1 would probably be SCA legal but not count as a valid SCA blow (M165)

4 have grabbing the opponent's sword on the blade
3 have grabbing the opponent's sword on the hilt
3 have grabbing the opponent's pommel
2 have stepping on the opponent's sword
1 involves trapping the opponent's sword against your body

2 have elbow pushes, or follow-ons from an elbow push
8 have grappling the opponent's arm to clear the line or help disarm

6 involve a throw, often with the blade to neck as a control point
2 have a kick to the opponent's shin/groin

(the total is not 43 as a play may appear in more than one category, e.g. M.155 has both a grabbing of the opponent's sword and a kick to the shin)

I have used the majority of these in WMA sparring, at speed against an uncooperative opponent (i.e. not staged set-pieces). For the record, the ones I have not used are throws with my blade against their neck (we're concerned about safety too, even with gorgets!), the shin kick (and only done the groin kick w/o power), two throws that are counters to their action, and a few of the disarms (still working on these).

I think the SCA is great for a number of things, including power generation for blows, safety rules (especially for multiple person melees & wars!), and helmet time against some extremely skilled opponents. But those same rules set up other situations if you don't need to worry about your opponent doing certain things, like grapple.

So, two different but complementary things. Enjoy them both!

[Steven H]

So, two different but complementary things. Enjoy them both!

This is my attitude as well. So I wanted to highlight it.

Thanks,
Steven

[Lucian Ro]

We talked about the fighting today. Four guys are interested in practicing "Ukraine" style fighting. After the holidays we need to talk about a "unofficial" practice.

Leo I keep batting back and forth the idea of moving to the Mid and this is another reason, amongst many, that is swaying me towards doing so.

[Leo Medii]

Have to do the video's and stuff next weekend at the local event. Had something big come up, and our washer died.

So, I'll get the video next week, and have them broken up into smaller bits for viewing.

[Steve Hick]

[

Oh, and the source material isn't that hard to interpret...to say they are cryptic is a gross oversimplification.

mmm.. he says, grossly over simplifying...

They vary - a lot. And for someone like me who has to wait for them to be translated into English, we're playing telephone.

Most of them already are, at this point. There are a couple realllllllllly cool ones that are too huge to tackle for many translators. Anonimo Bolognese has everything, literally everything about chivalric combat to some degree. Bit by bit, its being tackled too.
A major Portuguese work is currently in translation. Steve Hick could give more detail if he happens by here.

All the 14th & early - mid 15thC ones are done, AFAIK. There is plenty published material to work from, in English, for very modest prices. Most of them are little more costly than dinner and a movie for two.

Well, little by little, everything will come out.

We have Godinho, the Portuguese work that is much like Marozzo, lots of weapons, that Kel references.

We are also working with Anonimo Bolognese, and another MS from Florence, Marozzo and a number of the Bolognese. I am working with Steve Reich, and I suspect snippets will come out and be available at the 7 Hearts website, every so often. And Tom Leoni is really working Manciolino right now, if only he would do Marozzo for publication.

I fear that the Monte translation that Dr. Forgeng is doing is delayed, but this will include both his treatise from 1492 and the Collectanea. I warn you, this latter is very fragmentary, as it is really "notes" collected posthumously.

Also, remember, a lot of folks over in the WMA or HEMA world are in, or were in, the SCA, and we are aware of the game and what can be applied and what not applied, as well as what is applied over here that isn't over there.

Steve