Question on blow judging with new helm.

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 8:00 pm

Here is a discussion on my new helm (yay!).
http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/010349.html

With the brim on this hat what issue do you see when judging blows?

Particularly blows that hit the brim.

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Ewan of Loch Fynne
Hearthman to Sir Gunther Rorikson.
"In this vocation one should therefore set one's heart and mind on winning honor, which endures forever" - Geoffroi de Charny

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 8:50 pm

they are GOOD!!!!!

learn to accept em....

IF you cant take the frickin helm off and get a regular one.. ( the rule is helm and all parts of it aka an acceptable blow to the brim equals your norman conical helm just got planted in your head)

If I wore a viking helm with horns and got hit on a horn with sufficient force IM DEAD...

( its a sore spot w me cause Ive seen guys go " brim" and shug a shot)

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 8:54 pm

No, Samuel you are not quite right. I fight in WMA's first kettle. A brim shot is not a killing blow as it did not hit your head, or any other part of your body...

Ewan, the way I call them is by the sound it makes when hit. I good hit to the bowl will not ring all that much, but a brim shot will have a destinct ring tone to it. Pad the helmet well, and use a TIGHT chinstrap and you will be able to tell quickly.

Ld. David de Clermont · Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:00 pm

Evil: Actually, Sir Samuel is correct. Any protrusions connected to your helm that are struck with a 'telling' blow are considered 'good.' This has been the rule for as long as I can remember. I'll see if I can get a quote from someone up the foodchain for you.

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Ld. David de Clermont
Squire to Ivar Rhidri Eithr Drenger
Haus Kriegsturm
Barony of Sternfeld
Middle Kingdom
House Kriegsturm Home Page

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:15 pm

IF you cant take the frickin helm off and get a regular one..

Kettle helms were much more "regular" than say a bascinet or just about any other helm in the 14th and early 15th century...

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:18 pm

I heard it like this... in the early days of the SCA, all helms were round-topped or flat topped. The first few guys who made conical helmets weren't calling shots to the upper portions of their helms, because they beleived that when the sword sheared clean through the helm, it would not have struck your head (how far we've come

). In response to this, the Society Marshall deemed that the objective was to hit your opponents helm, not his head. This rule was put in place because of high-topped helms, but it also covers brims, huge bargrills, lobster tails, etc. Evil, if you aren't calling shots to your brim, you should be.

~Wil

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Midgard- 11th Century Living History & Re-enactment.

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:23 pm

The brim of my helm is not my head, nor any other part of my body... I may just be iterpreting the East Kingdom rules improperly, but if I were to treat my helm as if it were a skull cap or "an open faced iron helm with nasal" a shot that hits my brim would normally hit nothing but air, a shot that lands on the sides of the brim above my shoulders I do consider a good shot, but not to the front of my brim...

Mind you this is just my interpretation, and I don't have many people trying to hit the front of my brim, rather they go for the bowl shot.

I'd love to hear a Marshall speak up... if one already has not.

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:56 pm

one has merlin... Ive been a marshal in Five kingdoms in over 10 years... your helm IS your head.....besides the fact Im a Knight of the Society and as part of that job Im supposed to enforce the rules of the list...

If you stuck a helm on your head and welded barstock to it in such a way to make a basket around your body IF you get hit on any BAR its a head shot because its attached to your head. (providing its a solid shot)

but if you really wanna make friends just go fight and call shots "brim" in a crown... Im sure the East Earl Marshal would take the time to explain to you in depth the rules of the list..

btw regular is meant to imply one that doesnt have protrusions aka "excuses" not to take good blows....

somehow I knew there would be at least one person who thought a brim shot dont count.......

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 11:00 pm

the helm is the helm, period. if that were not the case why not wear a helm with a ridiculously large brim and hide behind it all day. the rules are very clear on a societal level regarding this and no kingdom (sca) can alter that.

regards
logan

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:39 am

Thats pretty much what my knight and I are discussing.

BTW Evil, a shot that hits the brim would likely hit you on the inside of the shoulder point which is a killing blow.

I spoke with the Kingdom Earl Marshal about it tonight (An-Tir) and he is of the same opinion. (Although he did say it would be up to your honor to accept the blow properly

)
He actually told me a story of a fighter that would fight in a sallet with a bar grill and a visor. This fellow fought with the visor up and welded in place. Shots would come in and hit the visor and he would shrug and say "Visor". He was universally known as an A-Hole and a rhino. Thats not a place I want to go. I play SCA and must conform to the rules. (Now an "Armour as worn" tourney would be a different story.)

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Ewan of Loch Fynne
Hearthman to Sir Gunther Rorikson.
"In this vocation one should therefore set one's heart and mind on winning honor, which endures forever" - Geoffroi de Charny

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Evil_Merlin:
Kettle helms were much more "regular" than say a bascinet or just about any other helm in the 14th and early 15th century...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree totally Evil. However I don't play in a Living History group so when in Rome...

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Ewan of Loch Fynne
Hearthman to Sir Gunther Rorikson.
"In this vocation one should therefore set one's heart and mind on winning honor, which endures forever" - Geoffroi de Charny

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 5:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Evil_Merlin:
The brim of my helm is not my head, nor any other part of my body...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your helmet is not your head nor any other part of your body. Neither is your breast plate or spaulders. You still take shots there don't you?

(not calling you into question on this, simply following the logic trail)

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 5:21 am

You go ahead and enforce the rules of the list. That's your job and I was asking for a clarification of my interpretation of the rules of the list as I could find no clarification on this in either the Marshall's Handbook nor the standard rules of the list for either the SCA or the East Kingdom.

BTW I have a brim on my helm in order to have a more accurate kit.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>BTW Evil, a shot that hits the brim would likely hit you on the inside of the shoulder point which is a killing blow.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And I did say I took those as good hits... =)

I've also not had any of the other fighters in my Barony complain about not taking shots to the head...

[This message has been edited by Evil_Merlin (edited 04-10-2003).]

Cedric · Post by **Cedric** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 6:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Evil_Merlin:
You go ahead and enforce the rules of the list. That's your job and I was asking for a clarification of my interpretation of the rules of the list as I could find no clarification on this in either the Marshall's Handbook nor the standard rules of the list for either the SCA or the East Kingdom.

BTW I have a brim on my helm in order to have a more accurate kit.

BTW Evil, a shot that hits the brim would likely hit you on the inside of the shoulder point which is a killing blow.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And I did say I took those as good hits... =)

I've also not had any of the other fighters in my Barony complain about not taking shots to the head...

[This message has been edited by Evil_Merlin (edited 04-10-2003).]

It doesnt matter why you have a particular helmet. What matters is that you call blows correctly with it.

In this case, everyone else is right and you are not. Brim shots count.

Lienhart Fischer · Post by **Lienhart Fischer** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 7:12 am

I fought in a kettle hat for a while and was calling stuff on the brim as no good too. Mostly cause I felt if I was fighting someone with the same helm i'd feel pretty crappy if I caught the outside edge of the brim and won a fight. I don't find any honor in using the rules to win a fight. If you have a problem with hitting the brim and feel the need to have a cry then you better start working on throwing more body shots.
-T

Vogeljager · Post by **Vogeljager** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 7:43 am

A tricky question to be sure.
Since we are talking about GOOD blows I think that anything that lands solidly on the brim should be called as such. Your advantage is that the brim is likely to make otherwise good blows glance off. I would veiw glancing blows on the brim no different than those that hit a well shaped conical or bacinet.

Watch out for thrusts from low in front though. They will make your helm work against you as they catch the brim and lift your head. Might even be dangerous...

I think I'll start a new thread on "Armour vs target"

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Vogeljäger
www.angelfire.com/nf/dfowler/

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 9:12 am

Watch out for thrusts from low in front though. They will make your helm work against you as they catch the brim and lift your head. Might even be dangerous...

I got caught by a pole weapon the other weekend this way. It honestly was not all that bad, as the grill is so rounded it slid before forcing my head back much. Needless to say, it was a damn good shot, as anything that touches my grill and even moves my head is a good shot.

muttman · Post by **muttman** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 9:34 am

was that me bill? I can`t remember.
John

Woodsende · Post by **Woodsende** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 9:56 am

I don't agree that a solid hit on ANY part of the helm counts as a kill. In the West it is common to call tip shots that only catch the bar grill as not good, due to the fact that if the wearer had on a conical helm with a nasal, the blow would not have contacted the persons face. This is usually called by the person who threw the blow. I have been told many times after taking a face shot "don't take that. It never would have touched your face."

I think the issue with the brimmed helmet would be the angle of the blow. If it is moving towards you in such a fashion that it would have travelled into the head (or body) if not impeded by the brim, ten it is good. If the tip just catches the brim, and never would have hit any part of you if you were wearing a concial helm, then it is not good.

Sir Robert of Woodsende
former Earl Marshal, West Kingdom

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 9:57 am

Yep John that was you when we did the spear drills. Before the bloody forehead incident. =)

Ulrich · Post by **Ulrich** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:32 am

Dude, its your helm call the shots the way you want, its your honor not any of ours. but the fact of the matter is, whether your wearing a Kettle helm or a nifty roman helm with the flare in the back, if your fighting in the SCA your wearing an "open faced iron helm with nasal" so if it hits your helm, it hits your helm. Anything else is rules lawyering. no one said there wasnt a price to pay for fashon.

UvB

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:42 am

Ulrich,

You make a good point, but the last thing I want to do is make "enemies". I'm working hard to be a good fighter, and I still have a LOT to learn, especially being out of it for more than 5 years (luckily I started with Master Padraig down in Smoking Rocks so I did have a good start). My local Barony is a great place, full of damn fine fighters that help me quite a bit. I'm just worried about what happens when I start fighting in the wars and people make assumptions based on my kit. Thank god my Japanese kit is not done yet, I can only imagine the comments and issues that it is going to bring to the table.

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:46 am

Woodsende,

think the issue with the brimmed helmet would be the angle of the blow. If it is moving towards you in such a fashion that it would have travelled into the head (or body) if not impeded by the brim, ten it is good

That is more or less how I tell. You can feel the pressure from a blow a lot easier in my opnion with a kettle helm because of the brim versus the other style helms. The sound also works with that as the higher up on the brim you hit (torwards the bowl) the less of a ring it makes meaning I'm dead...

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:48 am

Your interpretations aside, in the general SCA handbook, it says:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
1. An effective blow to the head, neck, or torso shall be judged fatal or totally
disabling, rendering the fighter incapable of further combat.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Notice, that it does not say:
"To the helm"

Now, with a kettle hat, Ewan, IMO, some shots to the brim should be called. Any skippy or glancing shot that hits the brim I would not call. Shots that hit the brim moving into the head or the shoulders, I would call.

Its not a black and white case, no matter how you guys put it. If you say "It hits the brim, its good!" Well, what about the case where his brim was poking out above the back edge of the shield, and you hit the brim with a downward vertical stroke, one where had the brim not been there it would have harmlessly bounced off the shield.

And thats just one example I can come up with.

Ewan, like I said, call the shot if you think it would have continued into the head or other valid target areas with enough force.

RomeBuff · Post by **RomeBuff** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:13 am

Hey Evil,

Padraig is East Kingdom Earl Marshall now. I will try to get him to weigh in on this topic.

Just an aside, I am from the rock as well, how long ago were you here? (We can chat off list if you wish. (I don't want to hijack the thread) let me know.

RomeBuff

Cedric · Post by **Cedric** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Dude, its your helm call the shots the way you want, its your honor not any of ours
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After re-reading everyones comments, I think this about sums it up. I personally feel that you shouldnt take a shot if it couldnt possibly have killed you (tip shots that just hit the bargrill are an excellent example).

In the end, though, its your call.

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:36 am

I agree with Sir Robert.

Go figure.

In a few weeks (hopefully!) I will start fighting in <a href=http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/patrick_thaden2001/vwp?.dir=/current+projects/Dmitriy&.src=ph&.dnm=P3270002.jpg&.view=t&.done=> this helmet</a>.

Are you saying I should take a blow that travels horizontally and only hits the tall spike that's obviously nowhere near my head?

-Dmitriy

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dmitriy:
Are you saying I should take a blow that travels horizontally and only hits the tall spike that's obviously nowhere near my head?

-Dmitriy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>thats what im saying...

its your helm correct?

white mountain armoury · Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:48 pm

I find it interesting people can see black and white in such a grey area, there are blows to a helmet that should not count.A tippy shot to the front most part of a hundskull for example, of howabout a verticle tip shot that just hits the kettle brim infront of the face.
If i were in your position Evil (and i will be soon as im opting to wear my polish kettle for pas instead of a bascinet) i would take what ever hits is provided its stout, If the shot is weird/odd ill leave it up to the class of my opponent, if he wants the weak tippy shot as a kill he can have it, im not so concerned about winning to make a stink

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:51 pm

"hits the tall spike that's obviously nowhere near my head?"

Yep.

I agree with the "A good blow that hits your helm kills you dead" group.

Thats how I was taught to fight, thats what I tell folks who consider buying a helm with lots o' protrusions...

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Matthew Broadway
Founder of The Armour Archive
(SCA: Alvered of Lincolnshire)
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Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 1:09 pm

Polish Hussars had metal wings that came up from their backplates, covered in feathers...

If I had one of those, and started calling "wing" no good... The shit would hit the fan...

They effectively start at the base of the back and then curve up over the head.

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Matthew Broadway
Founder of The Armour Archive
(SCA: Alvered of Lincolnshire)
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Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 1:19 pm

Well I guess we disagree then

If a sword travels horizontally about a foot above my head and happens to make contact with a spike -- sorry, no good.

I agree with the wing post, Broadway.

Basically, the way I look at it is, if the blow would have hit me if I was wearing the SCA assumed armour, it's good (given sufficient force). If it wouldn't have, then it wasn't good.

[This message has been edited by Dmitriy (edited 04-10-2003).]

bela of kaffa · Post by **bela of kaffa** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 1:31 pm

how do you determine what part of your helm it hit? I go by sound and concussion, i don't watch the weapon hit me...

honestly, if i saw a spike that tall(which looks really cool, btw), i would probably discuss the matter with you at first. Short of something at the near top of the spike, which i would ask you not to take, i would hope/expect you to take my shots to the helm of the proper force...

If, when discussing the matter before the bout, i determined that you were going to be subjective in the manner which you indicate, i would possibly respectfully decline to fight you.
I would lose in that decision also, by declining the opportunity of a good fight...

with respect,
bela

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dmitriy:
Well I guess we disagree then

If a sword travels horizontally about a foot above my head and happens to make contact with a spike -- sorry, no good.

I agree with the wing post, Broadway.

Basically, the way I look at it is, if the blow would have hit me if I was wearing the SCA assumed armour, it's good (given sufficient force). If it wouldn't have, then it wasn't good.

[This message has been edited by Dmitriy (edited 04-10-2003).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 1:37 pm

I am in the group who takes a solid blow to any part of my helmet that proves to me that I was bested. I don't believe that the SCA should use the words killing or disabling blow as most of the shots I get hit with and accept would not fit in that category and I could just as easily use those words to avoid taking blows.

So on that note: if a blow hits the brim of my kettle helm with enough solid force to indicate to me that "wow, nice blow" then I accept it -whether I believe it would have killed/disabled me or not.

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Hjalmar of Sognefjord
House Bearkiller
Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies.

"True nobility is not measured by being superior to another, but rather by becoming superior to oneself."

[This message has been edited by hjalmr (edited 04-10-2003).]

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 1:44 pm

Bela, not having the helmet in my hot little hands yet, I don't know yet. Right now I fight in a tallish helmet -- best seen here, http://history.westkingdom.org/Year37/Photos/MSC18.htm -- it has a bit of a point on top. When it gets hit, it feels quite different from the other parts of the helmet.
Sometimes I am not sure, so I take it anyway. Now and then my opponent will tell me that it "just grabbed the point" and ask me not to take the blow, in which case I don't.
I've never had anyone complain about this -- but then, I play in a region where we don't take tip shots that only grab the grill as Sir Robert described.