The Armour Archive

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:26 pm**

Not a marshal, but I used to be many years ago. A question that has vexed me:

If I have a fighter tilt their head back and can easily insert my fist into the gap created at the front of their throat and touch nothing but flesh and chinstrap, should that fighter be passed or failed? Yes they are wearing a properly sized helmet. Yes, they are wearing a legal gorget.

Thanks.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:33 pm**

Generally i would say it fails but with out seeing the helm and gorget and could tell you why it is failing for sure, but that is really to much space to be safe. IMO

Balin

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:50 pm**

Unless you can touch the bare throat with a sword blade turned horizontal, then it passes.

You can almost always get a fist up under a helmet to touch chin when the head is tilted back.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:51 pm**

How often do they have your head tilted that far back; what posiiton do you need to be in to thrust that spot?
Even skipping off the breast plate what would it take to get low profile ratan to the neck?

Noticeing this it may be fixable or improved with a fabric or leather drap off the bottom of the helm/linner.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:27 pm**

InsaneIrish wrote:Unless you can touch the bare throat with a sword blade turned horizontal, then it passes.

You can almost always get a fist up under a helmet to touch chin when the head is tilted back.

Thrusting tip?

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:38 pm**

jester wrote:
Thrusting tip?

And?

Again, you can almost always get a thrusting tip into a helm.

If the guy tilts his head back and you can take a sword and lay it on his throat then he fails. If the sword hits camail or gorget then it passes.

Of course there are always exceptions. I picture would help immensely.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:49 pm**

Thanks.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:56 pm**

fail. The gap should not be that big. Common sense man.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:37 pm**

Most helm/gorget combos would fail a very picky marshal (without an aventail/drape).

Only the most egregious are really prevented from fighting because of the logistics of the situation.

So, it is impossible to tell without pictures or inspecting the helm personally.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:33 pm**

InsaneIrish wrote:Unless you can touch the bare throat with a sword blade turned horizontal, then it passes.

You can almost always get a fist up under a helmet to touch chin when the head is tilted back.

Aiden, you sound just like a wise MIC instructing a MIT ....

I empathize with neck armor problems; I have only failed inspection (fighting since 1991) for gorget issues. I have even been failed at war while wearing an extremely heavy spring stainless aventail.

Respectfully,
Thomas

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:45 pm**

InsaneIrish wrote:
jester wrote:
Thrusting tip?

And?

Again, you can almost always get a thrusting tip into a helm.

If the guy tilts his head back and you can take a sword and lay it on his throat then he fails. If the sword hits camail or gorget then it passes.

Of course there are always exceptions. I picture would help immensely.

If you honestly don't care that a thrusting tip the size of a spear head can get up into the fighter's chin, I honestly don't want you doing armour inspections.

You should not be able to get a thrusting tip up into someone's chin. A helm-gorget combination that permits that without some sort of extremely bizarre contortion really shouldn't be on the field.

I wear a bascinet with plate gorget and no camail/aventail. And you can't get a thrusting tip past them to contact me without taking my helm off my head.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:51 pm**

The rules only say the face grill must extend 1" below the chin; the tilting-the-head-back test is not now, nor has it ever been, a requirement.

The gorget needs to protect the cervical vertebrae and esophagus; above that is the underside of the jaw, for which there is no specific protection called out other than the face grill 1" below the chin.

Your Kingdom may vary.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:58 pm**

Kilkenny wrote:
If you honestly don't care that a thrusting tip the size of a spear head can get up into the fighter's chin, I honestly don't want you doing armour inspections.

You should not be able to get a thrusting tip up into someone's chin. A helm-gorget combination that permits that without some sort of extremely bizarre contortion really shouldn't be on the field.

You are jumping to conclusions that I did not make.

As I have said in above posts. There are always exceptions. Honestly trying to make a "pass/fail" determination based on the extremely limited description and information of the OP is purely academic.

My whole point is that common sense needs to play a part in inspections.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:59 pm**

If there wasn't a space, how would people with non-removable grills/visors buckle their chin straps?

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:01 pm**

AwP wrote:If there wasn't a space, how would people with non-removable grills/visors buckle their chin straps?

dunno about you, but my fingers are smaller than a thrusting tip.

Plenty of people have the fastening mechanism on the outside of the helm.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:04 pm**

IIRC, in the Mid, the rule was if a sword thrust up at a 45 degree angle and get to the neck, it would fail. Because you can almost always get in if you go straight up.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:12 pm**

Is it hitting the THROAT, or the chin? The bones in the throat only take about 70 pounds to break - pretty easy to do. If it goes up into the chin or the skin under the jawline, it would be legal - I let them know that if they get hit there it is going to SUCK, but it is technically legal.

Closer to the adam's apple, more likely to fail.

Yeah... need pics.
.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:50 pm**

As I've mentioned before, I once had a marshal threaten to fail my helmet at Pennsic because a thrusting tip could get in if I were laying dead on the field and the thrust slid up my breastplate and hit my chin.

The weapon would have needed to been almost parallel to my sternum.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:05 pm**

Vladimir At that point ask to talk to another marshal or someone higher up the food chain.
Some marhals need to be retrained or have an ego check be polite it may just be the marshal has been out in the sun to long or running low on sleep/water.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:35 pm**

Oh, he passed it. With a warning to get some bars added to it.

Never mind the fact that if I had put bars where he wanted them I would not have been able to get the helm on or off.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:03 pm**

When a marshal asks me to do that bend your head back so I can fist your throught thing... I bend my back. My chin and sternum stay in pretty much the same position. But, I'm looking up at the sky.

Not an issue since I got a bascinet with aventail.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:22 pm**

To be honest, unless you have a bevor or a camail, I can get my fist up into most helms, both front and back. None of this constitutes failing per the Marshals Handbook:

B. Helms
3. Face guards shall prevent a 1-inch (25.4mm) diameter dowel from entering into any of the face guard openings.
4. The face guard shall extend at least 1 inch (25.4mm) below the bottom of the chin and jaw line when the head is held erect.

D. Neck Armor: The neck, including the larynx, cervical vertebrae, and first thoracic vertebra must be covered by one or a combination of the following and must stay covered during typical combat situations, including turning the head, lifting the chin, etc.:
1. The helm,
2. A gorget of rigid material.
3. A mail or heavy leather camail or aventail that hangs or drapes to absorb the force of a blow. If the camail or aventail lays in contact with the larynx, cervical vertebrae, or first thoracic vertebra, that section must be padded with a minimum of .25in (6mm) of close cell foam or equivalent.
4. A collar of heavy leather lined with a minimum of .25in (6mm) of close cell foam or equivalent.

All it says is the grill must extend 1" past the chin and the larynx must be covered. Nothing about how much room is in there.

So any time a marshal starts with the "I can shove my fist up there" rigmarole, I politely inform him that perhaps he should familiarize himself with the rules.

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:37 pm**

A long time ago I threw the 1 in a billion shot that ended up inside a guys helmet. It was with a single handed sword with a low profile tip. I was legged and went for a thrust to the body. Coming from below it glanced off their body armour and hit the bars on their helmet pushing their head back allowing the sword to slip into the bar grill area of the helmet. The sword never touched his face but wow were we suprised. he blinked a couple of times and said "GOOD!" and that was the end of it. Do I think the helmet should have failed, no. It was a good helm just a really odd chance of events.

Edward

Posted: **Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:22 pm**

Good luck at getting everyone to add 250 buck aventails to all the 100 buck helmets. *chuckle*

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:33 am**

butted usualy run around 80 and if you pad the neck removes the need for a gorget.
Makeing one in 4-6 oz leather solves the same problem but requires a gorget.

One thing that bothers me is that ZWA gorgets need additional padding, rarely do people add another layer.

Pennsic is the only even where I need to check padding on gorgets adding just a little to ZWA fixes the issue, Dark victory is another for some reason people don't add any padding, it requires a bit more fussing to fix paticularly on monday morning before the rist battle.

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:43 am**

the sword never tuched him? why would he call it good? in a crown finals i was fighting duke havorc. he threw a thrust from about hip level as i threw a high wrap which he ducked. we were forced to fight dual weapon. anyway, his sword went into my helm right by my jaw and stopped under my earlobe. we had to hold to get the sword out of my helm and, of course, the shot didnt count. is this similar to what you are talking about?

regards
logan

Edward MacTavish wrote:A long time ago I threw the 1 in a billion shot that ended up inside a guys helmet. It was with a single handed sword with a low profile tip. I was legged and went for a thrust to the body. Coming from below it glanced off their body armour and hit the bars on their helmet pushing their head back allowing the sword to slip into the bar grill area of the helmet. The sword never touched his face but wow were we suprised. he blinked a couple of times and said "GOOD!" and that was the end of it. Do I think the helmet should have failed, no. It was a good helm just a really odd chance of events.

Edward

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:45 am**

yep. its ust that simple. ive never understood the whole head tilting/wiggling a sword tip around concept.

regards
logan

Blaine de Navarre wrote:The rules only say the face grill must extend 1" below the chin; the tilting-the-head-back test is not now, nor has it ever been, a requirement.

The gorget needs to protect the cervical vertebrae and esophagus; above that is the underside of the jaw, for which there is no specific protection called out other than the face grill 1" below the chin.

Your Kingdom may vary.

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:47 am**

They're rigid material, why would they need any padding to meet the letter of the rules?

losthelm wrote:butted usualy run around 80 and if you pad the neck removes the need for a gorget.
Makeing one in 4-6 oz leather solves the same problem but requires a gorget.

One thing that bothers me is that ZWA gorgets need additional padding, rarely do people add another layer.

Pennsic is the only even where I need to check padding on gorgets adding just a little to ZWA fixes the issue, Dark victory is another for some reason people don't add any padding, it requires a bit more fussing to fix paticularly on monday morning before the rist battle.

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:59 am**

Duke Logan,

The sword never touched his face. It did contact his helmet and pushed his head back so that the tip slid under. If he had not been wearing a helmet then the blade would have went right up his nose.

Every place is diferent but I know that if any part of a weapon comes between me and the inside of my visor I am going to stop the fight. The only reason I wouldent call it good is if it was part of a crossguard that came through the visor.

Edward

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:38 am**

losthelm wrote:butted usualy run around 80 and if you pad the neck removes the need for a gorget.
Makeing one in 4-6 oz leather solves the same problem but requires a gorget.

One thing that bothers me is that ZWA gorgets need additional padding, rarely do people add another layer.

Pennsic is the only even where I need to check padding on gorgets adding just a little to ZWA fixes the issue, Dark victory is another for some reason people don't add any padding, it requires a bit more fussing to fix paticularly on monday morning before the rist battle.

I'm not trying to be a pedant, but there are a few inaccuracies in this post.

Marshal's Handbook wrote:D. Neck Armor: The neck, including the larynx, cervical vertebrae, and first thoracic vertebra must be covered by one or a combination of the following and must stay covered during typical combat situations, including turning the head, lifting the chin, etc.:
1. The helm,
2. A gorget of rigid material.
3. A mail or heavy leather camail or aventail that hangs or drapes to absorb the force of a blow. If the camail or
aventail lays in contact with the larynx, cervical vertebrae, or first thoracic vertebra, that section must be
padded with a minimum of .25in (6mm) of close cell foam or equivalent.
4. A collar of heavy leather lined with a minimum of .25in (6mm) of close cell foam or equivalent.

At no point is riveted, welded or butted mentioned in the marshal's handbook. If the aventail drape to absorb the force of the blow, and does not come into contact with the wearers neck, it does not need to be padded. If it does come into contact with the wearers neck, then it does need to be padded. Further, the same rules apply if it is heavy leather.

Further, your assertion that "4-6 oz leather solves the same problem" is also incorrect. (Although I could be misreading it, as you state that you need a gorget with it -- although if you have a qualifying gorget, then you don't need a leather drape.)

Marshal's Handbook wrote:Heavy leather: Heavy Leather: stiff, oak-tanned leather nominally 11/64 inch (4.4mm) thick. Often referred to as 11oz. leather.

Finally, I don't remember the details of the ZWA gorgets, but a gorget made of rigid materials in the appropriate locations does not need padding.

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:18 am**

sorry, i misunderstood and somehow missed that it hit the grille first. in my situation the thrust skipped off my maille just above my collarbone and then went into my helm landing right under my earlob.

regards
logan

Edward MacTavish wrote:Duke Logan,

The sword never touched his face. It did contact his helmet and pushed his head back so that the tip slid under. If he had not been wearing a helmet then the blade would have went right up his nose.

Every place is diferent but I know that if any part of a weapon comes between me and the inside of my visor I am going to stop the fight. The only reason I wouldent call it good is if it was part of a crossguard that came through the visor.

Edward

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:23 pm**

This came up at Meridian Fighter's Collegium in 2009 during armour inspections. Sir Morgan, the KEM, was performing the inspections. I believe the thought at the time was that, currently, the rules did not restrict the vertical gap, but with the advent of LPTT, we, as fighters, should start looking at closing that up. I'm not sure if anything further has come of that.

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:25 pm**

Jestyr
Your right
For some reason I though both heavy combat and rapier used the same gorget standards.

rapier marshal handbook
section 2 subsection B

vi. For heavy rapier and cut and thrust rapier, additional throat protection is required; it
shall consist of rigid material, as noted above, covering the entire throat, and shall be
backed by either puncture resistant material (as a hood), one quarter inch (1/4") (6 mm) of
open-cell foam, or their equivalents. The cervical vertebrae shall also be protected by rigid
material, provided by some combination of gorget, helm, and/or hood insert.

A leather drape can help to cover the space between the helm and the gorget when a marshal is being overly concerned with a shot comeing in parrelle to the body for a thrust.

The drape does not meet any requirement for SCA combat but it can help with marshals that are overly concerned and generaly impoves the look.

Knotwolf does this quite a bit with his helms I would guess between 1/3 to 1/2 feature a leather drape without chainmail.
http://www.knotwolf.com/mambo/index.php ... &Itemid=39

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:50 pm**

losthelm wrote:
vi. For heavy rapier and cut and thrust rapier, additional throat protection is required; it
shall consist of rigid material, as noted above, covering the entire throat, and shall be
backed by either puncture resistant material (as a hood), one quarter inch (1/4") (6 mm) of
open-cell foam, or their equivalents. The cervical vertebrae shall also be protected by rigid
material, provided by some combination of gorget, helm, and/or hood insert.

A leather drape can help to cover the space between the helm and the gorget when a marshal is being overly concerned with a shot comeing in parrelle to the body for a thrust.

The drape does not meet any requirement for SCA combat but it can help with marshals that are overly concerned and generaly impoves the look.

I didn't realize that about rapier gorget rules -- and I am a rapier marshal. Thanks!

And I agree that the lighter leather serves to appease some eager marshals while improving the look... and it does provide some minor protection on a shot that found a gap. :-)

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:02 pm**

Blaine de Navarre wrote:The rules only say the face grill must extend 1" below the chin; the tilting-the-head-back test is not now, nor has it ever been, a requirement.

The gorget needs to protect the cervical vertebrae and esophagus; above that is the underside of the jaw, for which there is no specific protection called out other than the face grill 1" below the chin.

Your Kingdom may vary.

Thanks for posting the actual rules. That is what a marshal should inspect too and nothing more.

If they have a concern beyond that then they can discuss with the fighter as a fellow fighter but not fail the armour. A similar situation would be where a fighter wears just kidney protection and a bare chest (we have all seen it). They can be advised that fighting will hurt but it is allowed in the rules.

The Armour Archive

Marshals Question: Throat Protection

Marshals Question: Throat Protection