The Armour Archive

Myself and another in my barony are making shiny new suits of steel. He is going high gothic and I am sort of lumbering around early 15th *shrug*, doesn't really matter, just starting with small talk.

Our intention is to put on these shiny new suits and basically beat the hell out of each other. We plan to be covered top to tip, so were trying to work out some reasonable rules so we could possibly bleed a tad but have no real breakage, we are both in the 40's range and still have to work =)

We are floating with the following:

Grappling allowed with throws and intention of bringing the other to the ground.

Charges allowed.

Hands/feet/elbows/headbutt, all allowed but with reasonable force. He is a cop and I am lifetime military so we both understand reasonable force and how to appropriately apply it.

All parts of weapons can be used offensively. Half guarding, pommel strikes, etc.

Any part of the weapon used for leverage is allowed.

We did not discuss shields because neither of us plan on carrying one, but shield bashing/clubbing/etc would all be allowed.

We discussed how we would define victory conditions and sort of came to a mutual agreement:

Submission - goes without saying

Achieving a superior tactical position/advantage. For example, he charges and knocks me down. We grapple for position on the ground and he ends up on top of me. He draws his dagger...I would consider that a very superior tactical position as I am now pretty much forked as the next move of the dagger is going in my armpit or helmet seam.

Any form of joint lock is a victory condition. Not sure if they used them in later period armored combat, but as we both have lots of training in hand to hand/submission, can't fight the nature on that one. An elbow will still break if twisted correctly.

Any real daze/wobbly knees/swoon is a stoppage/victory. I think that one goes without saying also as we are doing this for fun and in the heat of the moment, you might not know you are hurt.

Weapons:

We discussed rebated steel as this would most approximate what we are going for, but it is going to tear up the weapons/armor pretty badly and we both work for a living. We roughly settled on shaved rattan as for the simulation of what we are doing, most period heavy weapons would have had a clubbing effect as opposed to a slashing/cutting effect on the steel. I know this is huge grounds for argument, but again, we are not really trying to kill each other.

I feel that a shaved rattan weapon would have the approximate effect of blurring the eyes and allow the combatant the intended effect of the struck blow. I know this does not come close to a true period weapon, but it is the best we can make out of the situation I believe. The shaving will allow more force to be delivered if striking with the blade as opposed to the flat so it is in the best interest of the combatant to keep proper offensive form. Further, the weapon will last longer if landing with the thick side so I think that one goes without saying. Would really like opinions on that tho.

I think that is about all we discussed. I am sure this is going to be a train wreck but it should certainly be a fun project. Obviously we are doing this outside the venue of the SCA for liability purposes so even tho the armor will see the SCA field, the fights won't =)

That is about it. I am sure this has been done before, but I didn't really see anything in the last few months of a similar nature. Would love to hear anyone's stories or any recommendations/opinions.

I know you are going to read this Richard, step it up son, your mark I greaves are almost done. You can polish em yourself tho, I only blacken =)

Obviously we are doing this outside the venue of the SCA for liability purposes so even tho the armor will see the SCA field, the fights won't =)

Welcome to a world of possibility, where you are not limited by what has gone before, but rather by how far you are willing to go.

I like the idea of grappling being allowed, but be aware that this will change the way fights go. It's possible you should give an additional victory condition using weapons, otherwise you will always devolve into floor-work. Not a bad thing in itself, but a bit boring after a while.

For example, in holland they have tournaments where you need to hit an opponent in the gap of the armour, or a heavy blow to the top of the head to get a point. This keeps the weapons being used, but means you don't end up killing people.

Koops wrote:Any form of joint lock is a victory condition. Not sure if they used them in later period armored combat, but as we both have lots of training in hand to hand/submission, can't fight the nature on that one. An elbow will still break if twisted correctly.

They did use them. It appears that they did not use them to control the opponent as much as to break things (in outrance, at least).

A vast majority of deeds of this type were watched by NUMEROUS people who had the authority to stop the combat at ANY TIME. Anyone above you in rank could interfere with what you were doing, except in the case of true Trial-by-combat, which was actually very rare.

http://www.thehaca.com/essays/Lalaing.htm

My recomendation without ever actually having done what you propose doing: Work up to it slowly. Experiment at half speed and power. See how the body and armor behave in joint locks etc. (Maximilian strap articulation will allow an elbow to break while SOME forms of shell articulation will make you impervious to join locks... until the articulation rivet pops quickly followed by your ACL)

If you work up to it slowly with a partner you trust to stop when you 'tap-out' you will find your own limits to what is acceptable.

Sean

This is almost exactly what the Empire of Adria does in their "Knightly Combat", in their heavy weapons/armour list. Punches, grappling, sweeps, locks, headbutts, knees, elbows, sheild bashing, pommel strikes, all of it. Weapon contact is also an important part of it, if they hit you in the head with a steel weapon, your dead, arm, arm is gone, that sort of thing. Its something I've been doing for two years, and with proper armour, rebated steel weapons (preferably with some sort of flattened or other tip protection), and control, is perfectly safe and sain. As long as you keep in mind that your trying to defeat the other guy, not kill him, you should be just fine.

PS: Its the most fun I've ever had in a 1v1 fight.

Where are you guys? I want to come play.

I would recommend calling in a 3rd party, possibly a 3rd person who can perform the same job as an SCA marshall and alert the two of you to enivronmental hazards you might not be able to see. Tripping and falling onto something could ruin your day.

Hey Scott! We need a safe word! What can I say, I have a hard time turning down a fight.
Armagendon !

As a former cop & military type a quick suggestion/comment/advise. Be sure your gear is set to fit you and you've done some good research on actual period gear. Same as making sure you protective vest is fitted right along with riot gear, tactical sling, etc. ... if it doesn't fit, yer screwed when you get to grappling or even trying to move in/out of range. I've been playing with 'mostly close' gear for the past few years, but am moving into fitted gear over this winter to clean out some of the 'slop' during engagements. If yer anywhere near the Detroit metro areas shoot me a PM. Sounds like you guys are going to have a hoot of fun!

I don't think the gear fitting will be a problem, the straps holding may turn into an issue tho. I propose that a busted strap is a forfeit! Hear that Richard! And you can't just weld things together! Daddy is breaking out the BIG rivets for this venture.

Safe word...er, how bout flaungesberfungensinton!

Actually, I like "Ow"

I would consider giving heavy polypropelene waster a go. I have a pair that Purpleheart armory made me that are heavy, tapered, well balanced, and feel like a sword in the hand. they will last longer than rattan and look better. They will also allow for more historical technique.

My 2 cents

Brian

The rebatted steel swords will not damage the armor as much as you think it will, provided that you use more than 16 gauge steel.

Sure you will get some dents, but no more than you would get with rattan.

Regards,
C

Didn't Nissan do somethiing like this in preparation for Battle of the Nations?

Pretty sure that the issues limited themselves to a few blown rivets in the armour, and a whole bunch of issues with the metal swords themselves breaking.

Yup. The armour held up better than the sword. Got some dents from pommel strikes. Hard sword shots with rebated steel leave shallow little creases at worst. If you are gonna thrust though, you may wanna be careful of your armpits, junk, inner ebows and eyes.

Iowa, huh? I maycome out and visit to play with you if thats OK.

You should make an attempt to video at least some of the sessions. I would love to see how this works out and even, hopefully, catches on.

After reading that essay by Vitus, might see about going to first person to hit the ground, will talk to The Richard about it.

It would still allow plenty of grappling/punches/elbows/feet for the blurring of the eyes effect as well as allowing a greater use of the weapons for tactical purposes.

I do like the idea of an impartial judge to call a stoppage if someone is in real danger as I think with all the clanging and banging, it is going to be difficult, as a combatant, to tell if one of us is really in a bad spot.

I want to keep is as loose as possible as far as rules go. If we keep adding on pages of rules, we will end up with first stout contact wins and we sort of already have that =)

It would be nice if we could keep it physical enough to be more of a real fight, but safe enough that we could possibly demo it at an event or something without the SCA powers that be bursting into flame.

The idea of a three shield fight is immensely intriguing. Joust, go to polearm, go to spear. Not sure if Richard would wet his pants over it, I know I certainly would =) I could do the real knightly contest while being a man at arms! I am certainly not going to advance in the SCA with my fighting prowess, might as well have some fun with another aspect.

We plan on trying to demo a joust at our next baronial event, depending on the horse training. If we can get the joust part down, the foot combat is the easy part. Now that would be the most cool demo I can think of. He can beat me near to death on all three elements and I still don't think you could pry the smile off my face.

My suit is getting a bit more elaborate then I had originally planned, but I figured if I am going to get smoked, might as well look good while doing it. I thought the armor would be the most difficult part, but as we both make armor, not so much. Just making my first suit out of mild as I have sooo damn much of it. If it holds up, great. But, my idea was to see what truly works for me and adjust the pieces in design as we progress. Might as well stick some of the 'arms race' into the mix.

Like I said, we are doing this on a lark. Our rules are not set in stone at all so figured we would try to keep it as close to reality as it is safe to do *shrug*

mjaay wrote:You should make an attempt to video at least some of the sessions. I would love to see how this works out and even, hopefully, catches on.

Oh ya, we will tape it =) As much as I would like to demo it, don't think there is any way we could get away with it at an event. I am sure it will ultimately end up as a 'family and friends' sort of thing and we get to say we did it.

I will be the one in the black suit who is swooing around saying, 'who hit me? I don't like pumpkin pie...mom!', then splash to the ground sounding like a car crash. I really cannot wait for it!

Not re-inventing any wheels here. We are trying to take the best elements of what's out there and combining them into something that captures the spirit.
I like the full body targeting and grappling (probably the biggest game changers vs. SCA). Also some variation on weapons. I'm looking at rattan weapons with rubber heads or the pollaxe simulators that Historic Enterprises sells. Rubber or rattan daggers. Kolben clubs and poly swords are a possibility, along with rebated steel.
Lots of inspiration here. Nissan's battle of Nations thread, balsa jousting, etc. I will say that Nissan's experiences with the rebated sword put a bit of a damper on my expectations from the steel end of things. I would have hoped that the swords were sturdier.
The biggest hurdle will be the horses. My experience with my departments MP makes me acutely aware of the problems horses bring to the mix. Time, lots of time - and after spending months with a mount only to find that that he won't pan out is discouraging. My work mount would probably take to it but he is the unit's not mine.
One variation that my son and I were discusing this morning is mounted combat (Kolbens?). He and I have done that in the past with no armor and boffers. Great fun. Obviously a step up - but not full out joust. He would be in for that on horse back, but not so much the joust. We also are prone to roughhouse on horseback in the unit trying unhorse each other. (don't worry Scott we won't go there).
No matter which direction this goes it should be fun. I sure there there is a common vibe here that those on the AA should get - raise the bar on the armor and you wanna raise the bar on the combat also.
Richard.

Also, it's just as likely Scott will clean my clock - I bring the pie just in case

If you use the right steel, breakage isn't an issue. AEMMA and OMSG have had one sword failure in something like a decade of steel fighting. Thats because it got driven into the ground with the full weight of two guys in armour and bent.

Just to put this out there, there are groups doing this. Full armour, full speed, full power, almost anything goes with steel. Here are a few opinions from doing it and watching it.

- Perf steel in the visor slot - a must. The force and speed of the thrusts are enough to kill if it gets into your helm.
- Weld some small ball berrings onto the cross guard points. With so much halfswording, the quillions end up being used offensively. A lot.
- The murder stroke/pommel strikes work with a rebated steel sword as well as it works with a sharp. As in, a full on, honest to goodness shot to the back of the head will probably result in permanent injury.
- Mail in the elbow and armpit is a must. As are an aventail with a steel gorget under it (or appropriate later steel articulation). Most good thrusts out of halfsword land in the neck or armpit.
- You -MUST- have a 3rd person to stop the fight. MUST.
- Takedowns are the most dangerous thing you'll do. Knees are fragile and falling on a sword quillion with 200+lbs on top of you in the wrong place is going hurt - a lot.
- For the sake of your partner, be careful of those knees when you go to throw. Play a little cooperatively here.. we all should know when we have been "got" if we are doing this in armour. Let them have the throw so they can bring you down easy. Resisting here is just asking to walk with a cane for the next 20 years.

JimC wrote:If you use the right steel, breakage isn't an issue. AEMMA and OMSG have had one sword failure in something like a decade of steel fighting. Thats because it got driven into the ground with the full weight of two guys in armour and bent.

Just to put this out there, there are groups doing this. Full armour, full speed, full power, almost anything goes with steel. Here are a few opinions from doing it and watching it.

- Perf steel in the visor slot - a must. The force and speed of the thrusts are enough to kill if it gets into your helm.
- Weld some small ball berrings onto the cross guard points. With so much halfswording, the quillions end up being used offensively. A lot.
- The murder stroke/pommel strikes work with a rebated steel sword as well as it works with a sharp. As in, a full on, honest to goodness shot to the back of the head will probably result in permanent injury.
- Mail in the elbow and armpit is a must. As are an aventail with a steel gorget under it (or appropriate later steel articulation). Most good thrusts out of halfsword land in the neck or armpit.
- You -MUST- have a 3rd person to stop the fight. MUST.
- Takedowns are the most dangerous thing you'll do. Knees are fragile and falling on a sword quillion with 200+lbs on top of you in the wrong place is going hurt - a lot.
- For the sake of your partner, be careful of those knees when you go to throw. Play a little cooperatively here.. we all should know when we have been "got" if we are doing this in armour. Let them have the throw so they can bring you down easy. Resisting here is just asking to walk with a cane for the next 20 years.

+1 (especially the last bit...as we say in class: "don't break your toys")

Oh ya. Been doing martial fighting enough to know when I am forked =) Don't think we are going to have any big issue here.

BNRichard wrote:Lots of inspiration here. Nissan's battle of Nations thread, balsa jousting, etc. I will say that Nissan's experiences with the rebated sword put a bit of a damper on my expectations from the steel end of things. I would have hoped that the swords were sturdier.

I think I'll take a little pause from working on the hilt on Nissan's next sword to address that point. not least as my hands hurt from all the sanding I've been doing this evening...

To be pretty blunt, I personally feel that the sword which Nissan's BoN practice run was with is, in almost all probability, a fairly poor example of a rebated sword. Of course,, it was used in a very harsh manner, and undoubtedly, that's part of the reason for its failure, but having looked at the failure photographs a hundred times, working out what could've caused such catastrophic failures (and of course ensuring that it does'nt happen to its successorone. )
the failure of the tang in two planes of deformation is pretty exceptional.
I rather suspect that part of that was also technique, or more accurately, bad technique, of levering the blade round a fulcrum point of the right hand, and powering through the cut all the way into the target, using the pommel as a lever - and so putting a vast amount of energy into the impact, with nowhere to go but into the tang itself
in any good reenactment blade by makers like armourclass, as I use, or albion's maestro range, pavel moc's tourney swords, or even things like darkwood's blades, you have a tang that is at least 1/2inch broad, by at least 3/16ths of an inch thick. to deform that sort of steel in the distal plane of the blade rather takes a severe amount of force, so I rather suspect (hope!) that that sword was a thinner stalk-like tang, to have failed in such a way.

The cross breakage is an interesting one. I've seen crosses bend, particularly on things like Hanwei practicals, and I've seen some of the notably thin fishtail-finial style crosses bend quite far. Break? so far, I've not seen anyone else manage that one except on clearly pre-damaged blades (stress raisers from another sword sliding down the blade and impacting hard into the cross, notching it, and then that arm wrenched) personally, I suspect that might've been a casting in a cheap steel, that was'nt dealt with by heat-treatment - the fact its broken in two places certainly suggests that there was some sort of stress issue to cause - if it were one single break, I'd be more worried.

Peersoonally, I'm countering the risk of such failure by specifying heat-treated, hardened carbon steel for the cross on the replacement. With any luck, it should be tougher than the originals were in the 14th C, yet alone off-the-shelf replicas!

from my experience with all too many swords over the last few years, there are inevitably failures, and weaker swords. Hanwei practicals, for instance, personally, are'nt too great. cheap, but you get what you pay for, and you end up with a sawblade that you could cut wood with after a year of use... use them against an Armourclass, Binns, or similar blade, and the hanweis will be chewed up in a month. That said, pay three times as much, and get an armourclass, and you're looking at something which wont last 3x as long - it'll last ten times that. I know people whose armourclass blades have been in near-constant use for 12, 13 years, and still are absolutely spot on. Of course, I also know people who do the huge edge-on-edge clashing display battles with no care for displacement, instead doing hard stop-blocks and the likes, and whose swords get trashed. Personally, I consider that as much a case of equipment abuse, as the one I saw using a sword for a poker in a campfire...

Now, I could sing the praises of Armourclass all night, so I'll try to stop being a stuck record there, and simply say that in all honesty, for sparring, I cant reccommend any maker more strongly. their off-the-shelf hilts are a bit industrial and plain, but well, if they were'nt, I'd not be making hilts as I do.
BUt equally, I would say, that any of the respected makers, llike paul binns, Pavel Moc, Albion, etc of good sparring swords will create a blade that should hold up to general combat, including halfswording, and similar use fairly well.


In active use, I would'nt take Nissan's experiment as a suitable summary of how all rebated weapons perform. In many ways, I'd consider to have been a torture test, to test the armour performance, with forces far over what most would ever suffer. The sword was'nt of the standard of many of the commercial makers out there, I suspect.

- Perf steel in the visor slot - a must. The force and speed of the thrusts are enough to kill if it gets into your helm.

Cant agree with that point enough. I know of one edinburgh WMA'er who had a freak accident involving a longsword and a sallet helmet. despite a visor slot only about 3mm wide, a freak hit managed to catch into the visor, directing the force of the blow in. even with a rebated tip, it went in the eyesocket. and did'nt stop there.

Hi Koops and Richard-I think I met you last month in DSM.

Hugh Knight has some good rules/victory conditions on this. Might want to check out his books at lulu.com.

Basically, wrestling is inherently dangerous so you have to be careful. When you get a ready to lock and/or throw, you stop and yell, "set". While it may be "jumping the gun" early and not allowing your opponent to "play through" a counter, it will greatly reduce the chance and severity of injuries.

Other than that, uselessly flailing away with the edges of swords on guys in plate armor is very period-similar to a "deed of arms" that looks dangerous, but really isn't terribly so.

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... -1519.html

That said, I have a pretty complete c 1410 harness, rebated swords, and I'm in town on Tuesday nights. If you're looking for any others to achieve this foolishness, I'm a fool at your service-PM me.

Trevor

Metal swords are not designed to beat on armour. Fight with them in half sword (dare I say it "properly") and you won't break them.

zachos wrote:Metal swords are not designed to beat on armour. Fight with them in half sword (dare I say it "properly") and you won't break them.

+1