Technique Legality Question

[Leo Medii]

I too do not care for the "lighter thrust". I wish they had to be as stout as any other blow.
Then again, I'm for 360 degree engagement, and several other harder fighting issues. Get's me in trouble when I talk such talk....

But, I'm not LCD when it comes to fighting and rules though.

[Nissan Maxima]

LCD?

[BdeB]

"High and powerful princes, lords, barons, knights and squires, each and every one of you, please raise your right hand on high, towards the saints, and all together, as you will in the future, promise and swear by the faith and promise of your body, and on your honor, that you will strike none of your company at this tourney knowingly with the point of your sword, or below the belt, and that no one will attack or draw on anyone unless it is permitted, and also that if by chance someone's helm falls off, no one will touch him until he has put it back on, and you agree that if you knowingly do otherwise you will lose your arms and horses, and be banished from the tourney; also to observe the orders of the judges in everything and everywhere as they order delinquents to be punished without argument; and also you swear and promise this by the faith and promise of your body and on your honor."

- King Rene

[Count Johnathan]

The weekend before last I was fighting in a tourney, standing over the man I'd legged.

I was about to utilize a technique that involves jamming the tip of my sword downwards into the corner of the foe's shield to displace it, and rolling my wrist over to finish him with a flat snap.

Then it dawned on me ...I recently stopped using a thrusting tip as part of a training resolution.

Then again, the technique isn't really *thrusting*, it's just, ehh, moving the dude's shield with my sword. Tip.

It's murky...

At the time I just used a different move to finish the fight, since I wasn't sure.

But it may come up again where I'll want to use this.

What do you guys think?

I've done it. It works well. No it is not illegal. You are allowed to make contact with the opponents shield with your weapon in any way you like. It's not a feint or a thrust. You aren't faking or stabbing the fighter, you are manipulating his shield with your weapon. YMMV (Y Marshals MV)

[D. Sebastian]

Yup, Legal.

No different than using a haft, or basket hilt, or your own shield to move an opponent's shield.

I'd call it legal. You're not thrusting him, or feinting... you're using a part of your weapon to displace a shield. I can slam their shield with my shield or haft... but I can't slam their body with them. I see it as the same thing.

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

its too often used as a crutch and too often leads to sloppy fighting. crown should be a showcase of skill and while a tiny percentage of guys throw skillful thrusts the majority do not.

now those are my own opinions but i would not be surprised if hrh feels any different. he has disallowed them in the past and i bet he does so again. but thats just a guess.

regards
logan

Ok, got it. That makes a lot of sense--in addition to requiring more skill, I think it's also more fun to crack a foe in the head with a well-executed blow then to go for the 'got-your-nose-I-win' method of face-thrusting that most seem to do.

When I do use thrusts, I try to make them stout, accurate and fast. If the opponent has to think about it we ignore it and keep fighting.

I didn't initially think of HRH having an aversion to thrusting because the only times I've fought him, we've both had spears in hand.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

A good fighter should be able to deliver a good thrust, too.

And most of the fighters I run into on a regular basis, while throwing lighter than the body, are not playing "got your nose" - it is an apparent, reasonably solid thrust.

of course. doesnt keep the fight from being sloppy and unskilled.

regards
logan

A good fighter should be able to block a poorly delivered thrust.

[Alex Baird]

LCD?

Lowest Common Denominator

[Alex Baird]

its too often used as a crutch and too often leads to sloppy fighting. crown should be a showcase of skill and while a tiny percentage of guys throw skillful thrusts the majority do not.

Are they also disallowed for great weapons? Or only for single hand swords?

[Theron]

LCD?

Lowest Common Denominator

Liquid Crystal Display?

[bkillian]

D no one in our kingdom would have an issue with the technique you described. If you are having issues with someone questioning it, and you guys can't work it out between your selves, get word to me an I will see if we can get them up to speed on how we view things in Atlantia.

[BdeB]

Oh no, you midrealm cats can know how to thrust.

A good fighter should be able to deliver a good thrust, too.

And most of the fighters I run into on a regular basis, while throwing lighter than the body, are not playing "got your nose" - it is an apparent, reasonably solid thrust.

of course. doesnt keep the fight from being sloppy and unskilled.

regards
logan

A good fighter should be able to block a poorly delivered thrust.

[dukelogan]

im just guessing. i dont think hrh has stated anything about the format or any additional rules. if so i would guess it would probably just be no face thrusting. if i were to guess.

regards
logan

its too often used as a crutch and too often leads to sloppy fighting. crown should be a showcase of skill and while a tiny percentage of guys throw skillful thrusts the majority do not.

Are they also disallowed for great weapons? Or only for single hand swords?

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

D no one in our kingdom would have an issue with the technique you described. If you are having issues with someone questioning it, and you guys can't work it out between your selves, get word to me an I will see if we can get them up to speed on how we view things in Atlantia.

Cool, thanks Bryan. No issues yet--in fact, I have never had a negative experience with an Atlantian fighter.

I posed this question because that is a record I would like to keep

[Cedric]

YMMV (Y Marshals MV)

THIS is comedy gold.

[Dafydd]

I too do not care for the "lighter thrust". I wish they had to be as stout as any other blow.

C'mon out here to An Tir, Leo. We don't monkey about with that "lighter thrust" nonsense...

[Tibbie Croser]

Regarding His Royal Highness of Atlantia, the next Crown Tournament, and thrusting...see the January Acorn: "There will be no thrusting allowed in our Crown List and the finals will be a five weapon final."

[dukelogan]

POW!

im available for paid advice on lottery numbers, just email me.


logan

Regarding His Royal Highness of Atlantia, the next Crown Tournament, and thrusting...see the January Acorn: "There will be no thrusting allowed in our Crown List and the finals will be a five weapon final."

[Micah Nelson]

The March Crown final in West this year was won with a face thrust. I'll be honest, I didn't see that coming, since neither combatant had a shield at the time.

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

POW!

im available for paid advice on lottery numbers, just email me.


logan

Hahah, do you do the stock market too, your Grace?

[dukelogan]

once. did not turn out well. then again when the company you work for suddenly drops 80% of ots global workforce that might be a sign to dump your stock. no, not me. i will stick with it i says.......

idiot.

POW!

im available for paid advice on lottery numbers, just email me.


logan

Hahah, do you do the stock market too, your Grace?

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Guess no spear then....

The March Crown final in West this year was won with a face thrust. I'll be honest, I didn't see that coming, since neither combatant had a shield at the time.

[St. George]

The technique you describe is one I use a few times a year- I have never thought of the push with the tip to the edge of a shield as a "feint" or "false thrust" because as far as I can tell, my opponent couldn't even see my sword while I'm performing the technique. Consider that the technique isn't doing anything but pushing your opponent's shield out of the way- I usually throw it towards the lower part of the shield, pushing it to the left and more importantly down. From there a quick rollover usually finishes off the fight.

If they see it coming, it might be against the rules, and they can prep for it. If they can't then it's an even bigger surprise, and IMO clearly not a fake thrust.

g-

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

As usual, the RAW are not clear here. I have always "played it":
1) you MAY thrust at a weapon or shield if your weapon has a thrusting tip
2) you MAY not thrust at a weapon or shield if your weapon does not.

But the "at" is not really that important, it's what you hit. Obviously, accidentally thrusting someone in the shield is OK (like for example if they block), so how could you tell intent of target?

As to whether Logans' "push" counts as a thrust or not ... well it probably depends. I certainly think using your quillons/basket/pommel/hilt/haft to manipulate weapon and shield is OK. I guess there is a clear dividing line... if I "push" your shield and miss and hit you in the face, if you have to take it, it was a thrust! If it was too light/pushy then it was a push.

I think the only reason for 2) is that thrusting/feinting without legal tips is not really safety so much as deception.

[dukelogan]

if your grille gets hit by my sword your head is lying on the ground. i push the bottom left side of the shield (right if youre a lefty).

regards
logan

As usual, the RAW are not clear here. I have always "played it":
1) you MAY thrust at a weapon or shield if your weapon has a thrusting tip
2) you MAY not thrust at a weapon or shield if your weapon does not.

But the "at" is not really that important, it's what you hit. Obviously, accidentally thrusting someone in the shield is OK (like for example if they block), so how could you tell intent of target?

As to whether Logans' "push" counts as a thrust or not ... well it probably depends. I certainly think using your quillons/basket/pommel/hilt/haft to manipulate weapon and shield is OK. I guess there is a clear dividing line... if I "push" your shield and miss and hit you in the face, if you have to take it, it was a thrust! If it was too light/pushy then it was a push.

I think the only reason for 2) is that thrusting/feinting without legal tips is not really safety so much as deception.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

if your grille gets hit by my sword your head is lying on the ground. i push the bottom left side of the shield (right if youre a lefty).

Leg then - or possibly gut - then.

Wait... you push the outside edge? Or *your* left? I push (actually, thrust, since I use a tip) the inside edge at the leverage point. Other spots as well - it obviously depends on the shield.

[dukelogan]

im a righty. guy on his knees is a righty (lefties are very easy for me to hit). bottom left of his shield (by my eyes) is where i make a little push in a downward motion. no way at all it could ever hit your leg or your gut. i employ that rare trick of control!!

see, the brain is an easy thing to confuse since it thinks. when youtell it "hold my shield here" and i push it slightly, your brain over-compensates and returns it to your originally intended position plus a wee bit more. meanwhile ive already thrown the flat snap to the head and im 85% done with the wrap to the base of your neck.
or, at least, thats the plan.

regards
logan

if your grille gets hit by my sword your head is lying on the ground. i push the bottom left side of the shield (right if youre a lefty).

Leg then - or possibly gut - then.

Wait... you push the outside edge? Or *your* left? I push (actually, thrust, since I use a tip) the inside edge at the leverage point. Other spots as well - it obviously depends on the shield.

[Leo Medii]

I too do not care for the "lighter thrust". I wish they had to be as stout as any other blow.

C'mon out here to An Tir, Leo. We don't monkey about with that "lighter thrust" nonsense...

I've heard a lot that I should fight in An Tir. What do you guys have in your water that makes people think you're all crazy?

[dukelogan]

i think their water is clean of the stupid scary "oh my damn, getting hit might maybe could kill someone for realZ" taint. at least thats what i think it is. i mean, they have hit hard for years. they have thrusted to the face hard for years. yet...... ummmmm..... nobody is dead? wtf mate!?

sadly we still have kingdoms that think light touch, light tap, light face thrust, should count. they claim its for "safety". i really think its a lack of real skill on the part of those that "lead the way" in those areas that developed this tippy tappy style of insta-death that forced a culture on those around them.

sad. really sad.

regards
logan

I too do not care for the "lighter thrust". I wish they had to be as stout as any other blow.

C'mon out here to An Tir, Leo. We don't monkey about with that "lighter thrust" nonsense...

I've heard a lot that I should fight in An Tir. What do you guys have in your water that makes people think you're all crazy?

[Oscad]

I think a lot of my face thrusting would be *easier* if we upped the calibration. Part of the current difficulty is having to move the sword directly at the face very fast, and then slowing it on a dime so it hits fairly lightly.

If I could just keep going fast, I think that would be easier.