The Armour Archive

Hi

Over the weekend of the 14th/15th June just past I, along with 2 other training officers from The Vikings, ran a steel combat training course just outside Kansas City. Apart from us 3 there were just over 30 others present, and apart from a few locals and a group from Omaha, folk traveled from places as far apart as San Francisco, Baton Rouge, San Antonio to Toronto.

The event consisted of 4 training sessions of about 2.5 hours each and at the end all of those present were authorized in what we call ‘Basic Combat’. These authorizations are valid at events organized by The Vikings until December 2006, although we would expect them to be renewed before then, and I will be posting photo ID cards to that effect in the next week or two.

This form of steel combat is all about controlling the blows and playing for fun, not promotion, prestige or title. While individual groups have their own rules, this is steel combat as practiced by Saxon/Viking/Norman re-enactment groups in the UK, Europe, Australia and New Zealand and at Hastings 2000 where show fighting for public audiences and controlled blows are the norm, and the general principles are the same. So we fought with open-faced (or no) helmets, leather gloves (some padded some not) and while some folk wore ring shirts and/or gambesons most of us did not. (85F in KC in June is tough going).

We came home with several invitations to go to different places to continue the teaching and, after consultation with the Society Training Officer, plans have been drawn up exist to progress some of those in attendance to Training Officer status.

If anyone else here is interested in learning, please feel free to contact me either through the list or directly at peter.james1@virgin.net


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Guðroð of Colanhomm

Literature stops in 1100.
After that it's just books.
J.R.R. Tolkien

It would be good to see the US have a greater proportion of steel fighters, and get a bit more balance with the overwhelming domination of rattan style there.

It's interesting; the rest of the re-enactment world uses steel - America, probably due to the SCA having started there and pretty much taken over the field before anybody thought of using steel, tends to miss out when international events happen.

I met several Americans - including some from the SCA who had learnt steel fighting with considerable success - at Hastings 2000 in the UK, and they seemed to do very well. Looking forward to seeing more at the Next Big One (TM)

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Egfroth

"Pig, sit still in the strainer.
Pig, sit still in the strainer!
I must have my pig tea!"

Egfroth

see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

Hey, how about aheads up the next time it is coming up, I know several people who would have went if they had known about it..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ironmongermisc:
Hey, how about aheads up the next time it is coming up, I know several people who would have went if they had known about it..</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Iron, but the event was trailed several times by myself and Halvgrimr of Calontir both on this board plus every Viking-type yahoo list I could find, until we had enough names to fill it.

The first notice went out on 30th October 2002 with dates and location, none of which were subsequently changed.

Once we have a venue and date for the next session I will post again.

------------------
Guðroð of Colanhomm

Literature stops in 1100.
After that it's just books.
J.R.R. Tolkien

Egfroth

I was one of those SCAers who made it to Hastings 2000. I know I met someone with your name but not sure if it was you. That was my first taste of the 'real' thing. I'd always been told in the past that steel combat wasn't done over here due to insurace woes and fear of lawsuits. I always thought that was a load of poop and it seems I was correct. K.C has only served to light the fire under me even more.

The SCA is about to find itself in a tight spot soon in regards to steel combat. With the further emergence and evolution of 'rapier' combat in the SCA they will make it more difficult to keep out 'early' styles of steel combat. I understand they are starting to allow slashing cuts and the swords are starting to get larger. It's only a matter of time before they get pinned in a corner with this little bit of favoritism.

In the mean time I'll comtinue to fight with both group and look for you in 2006 or sooner.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by greenshield:
<B>Egfroth
In the mean time I'll comtinue to fight with both group and look for you in 2006 or sooner.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

--welcome aboard Camric/William/Greenshield!

halvgrimr

Originally posted by greenshield:
<B>Egfroth

I was one of those SCAers who made it to Hastings 2000. I know I met someone with your name but not sure if it was you.</B>

That was me - there can be only one<B>

That was my first taste of the 'real' thing. I'd always been told in the past that steel combat wasn't done over here due to insurace woes and fear of lawsuits. I always thought that was a load of poop and it seems I was correct. K.C has only served to light the fire under me even more.

</B>

Yes - there are several groups in North America that fight with steel, but they tend to vanish into the "background noise" due to the overwhelming numbers in the SCA. I was greatly impressed by the quality of the gear of our colonial cousins who made it to Hastings - perhaps they, like we from Australia, felt they had something to prove, compared with the people who live in Europe - the "home" of mediaeval re-enactment.

I very nearly joined the SCA in my very first days, and would have ended up fighting with rattan. Fortunately, I was led to the True Path (TM) and have never looked back . . .



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Egfroth

"Pig, sit still in the strainer.
Pig, sit still in the strainer!
I must have my pig tea!"

Egfroth

see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

Egfroth -- I just realized something -- you probably met Duke Henrik of Havn at hastings then? An older gentleman from California, among other things brought his own Norman saddle.

Congrats on joining the "true path" (tm).

It would seem to me that in America, more SCA are doing both real and rattan fighting.

Now all we have to do is teach the re-enactors in the rest of the world to fight like real men and do real head blows and lower limbs and we might be getting somewhere

I really have to get over to Hastings one year...

When are the next two. This year and 2006?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lacheadon:
<B>I really have to get over to Hastings one year...

When are the next two. This year and 2006?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a small (last year had 120 per side) Hastings every October, but 'The Big One' (tm) is every 5 or so years.

No decision has been made yet as to whether it will be 2005 or 2006, but thay have promised us 2 years notice.

------------------
Guðroð of Colanhomm

Literature stops in 1100.
After that it's just books.
J.R.R. Tolkien

[This message has been edited by guthrothr (edited 06-26-2003).]

I always thought that sidesword was a way to sneak rebated steel "under the radar." But Sidesword is not competive and not open to everyone. Also sidesword is an "unarmored" style so moderate protection combined with cuts from the wrist & elbow only is still a valid martial art.

But I do not see that controlled blows have any place in armored combat. Without controlled blows rebated steel is too dangerous and/or expensive. With controled blows it blurs the line between theatrical display and martial art. I can't see the SCA going there.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lyelf:
<B>I always thought that sidesword was a way to sneak rebated steel "under the radar." But Sidesword is not competive and not open to everyone. Also sidesword is an "unarmored" style so moderate protection combined with cuts from the wrist & elbow only is still a valid martial art.

But I do not see that controlled blows have any place in armored combat. Without controlled blows rebated steel is too dangerous and/or expensive. With controled blows it blurs the line between theatrical display and martial art. I can't see the SCA going there.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While Sidesword may not be used for tournaments, particularly those that result in awards (such as a Queen's Champion tourney), it is competitive in nature. It is freeform/unscripted, and has rules for the aknowledgement of blows.

Non-Competitive study is tightly controlled and is largely a carefully choreographed progression where the participants 'step through' the sequence to illustrate the practical application of a martial principle.

None of this should be taken as criticism of the Sidesword program. I personally take a great deal of hope from the fact that the SCA greenlighted a program of this nature (miracles can happen).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dmitriy:
Egfroth -- I just realized something -- you probably met Duke Henrik of Havn at hastings then? An older gentleman from California, among other things brought his own Norman saddle.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I met Henrik, down at the muddy, muddy tavern tent on the Sunday evening. Had a look at his saddle and a brief chat. Henrik also posts to the unofficial Hastings e-group: www.smartgroups.com/groups/hastings (all, please join the group if you are interested - it has been busy at times, but could do with some more life at the moment).

Some kind Scadians packed me in the back of their van and gave me a lift from London to Battle. Unfortunately, I can't remember their names at the moment. I was staying with a chap from Regia Anglorum, and they came and stayed also for a night or two.

I have to agree with Lacheadon ("Now all we have to do is teach the re-enactors in the rest of the world to fight like real men and do real head blows and lower limbs and we might be getting somewhere ") ... The fighting at Hastings was a little wussy and polite ... But then, there were a lot of people there from all over the place, and from a few examples I saw I'm not sure I'd trust all of them to be swinging at my head (though I normally fight that way).

Cheers
Michael B
(Australia)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lyelf:
Without controlled blows rebated steel is too dangerous and/or expensive. With controled blows it blurs the line between theatrical display and martial art. I can't see the SCA going there.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

--and i hope it doesnt

i love the SCA and wont ever quit playing but the serenity of not having to deal with political crap at our gathering was wonderous (yeah i made that up)

besides from what i have seen, any new group within the SCA (archers, fencers, equestrians) gets the glorious position of second class citizen or red headed step children, who needs that

the two are seperate and shouldnt even think on encroaching on each others turf

"live" steel will evolve on its own path just like the SCA did, i for one will help it along but wont ever encourage it to become part of the SCA

Halvgrimr




[This message has been edited by Halvgrim (edited 06-26-2003).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jester:
Non-Competitive study is tightly controlled and is largely a carefully choreographed progression where the participants 'step through' the sequence to illustrate the practical application of a martial principle.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But if you don't test your techniques in an unchoreographed environment, how do you know the techniques are valid? We can start with the techniques of the masters, certainly, but there are differences between the schools.

This sounds like a good way to begin, but physical techniques account for a small part of combat. Judgement, timing and psychology are at least as important and deserve to be studied. That requires free-play, which is competitive by your narrow definition.

I have had a hankerin' to do some rebated steel combat with really, really good armor. (In fact, I'm working towards getting some spring steel armor for this very purpose.) I don't want to choreograph or hold anything back (other than thrusting). I want the biggest bite of what reality was to an armored knight.

That being said, how safe is it to whack an appropriately armored opponent full force with a rebated steel sword? Anyone here with experience?

As a wuss Euro who've tried quite a few of the rebated steel styles over the years I think I can bring up some issues. One important note is that most of the Euro fighting crowd I mix with try to use fighting gear that hide as much of the modern equipement as possible to be able to fight freestyle demonstration fights for an audience.

Regarding full-force blows, I've gotten a few hard rounds on my late 13th century kettle hat in full-speed sparring over the years and while it certainly makes the helmet ring like a church bell on sundays it hasn't hurt me - of course I wear a padded coif underneat. There are no steel styles I've tried who do full-force blows, for several reasons:
1:Safety
2:Often partly irrelevant if the combat is meant to simulate unarmoured combat - test-cutting on animal carcasses seem to indicate that the technique and angle of attack are much more important than a very forceful blow. In armoured combat, well, the masters seem to avoid landing blades on their opponents' armour. In the words of Bob Charron: "Why bang your family heirloom up on a suit of Milanese plate when it does no good?".
3: It is just as reasonable to use wasters or padded weapons full-force: something most of the serious steel WMA practicioners do.

Techniques are tested both in choreographed and unchoreographed media, of course excepting a few of the more bone-crunching wrestling moves: My personal experience is that getting the more sophisticated Fiori, Ringeck or I.33 techniques in in free-style is very, very difficult and demands more experience than I currently possess.

The Hastings event has a very controlled form of steel combat to minimize injuries. At Scandinavian viking-age mass combat meets like Moesgaard, Trelleborg and Foteviken the style is competitive but the head, lower legs and (unfortunately, but we're trying to remedy that) arms are off-target.It makes for pretty kills but isn't overly realistic. That being said, few long-term practicioners of this style have too many problems crossing over to full-body fighting - their timing and distance perception have already been developed in the regular markets. In Poland and Russia many reenactment battles are competitive and full-body but the relative inexperience of the fighters(despite their heavy armour) leads to more injuries than the Scandinavian scene is willing to accept. It is also an inclusion thing, as the training period for new fighters would have to increase dramatically if larger hit areas were to be used.

The steel style being with the largest hit areas practiced in Scandinavia and North Germany includes the whole body except the face, and is partly comptetitive: the recepient of a blow must approve it as "good" much like in the SCA. The emphasis here is on performing a blow with a speed and arc, or thrust distance, that would have been a disabling hit. The style tries to simulate unarmoured combat, thus helmet hits are valid. Minimum equipment requirements are knee and shin protectors worn under clothing, elbow cups and lower arm protectors and a helmet. Most fighters aquire some sort of body armour(typically a gambeson with some sort of steel armour on top) as evene a controlled stab can hurt quite a bit if done wrong(or right? ).

My personal belief is that a serious WMA practicioner _needs_ to try both steel(to get the feel of a weapon), boffered(to try full-force blows) and wood(for technique training - because some arm locks hurt like hell if performed with a 5mm steel edge.) In addition, freestyle fighting is absolutely necessary to learn about the unteachable parts of the trade: distance, timing and correct motion in relation to your opponent. I'm at the moment _very_ keen to try some more face stabbing, as that is, with the current system, seriously unsafe. Perhaps a hard-plastic face protector on the inside of an open-face helmet?

EF

Why make a plastic face protector? Why not a visored helmet? (Or perhaps you're pre-12th century...)

I had in mind 14th c. armor for my experiment.

I wanted, as a minimunm, a gambeson with metal or cuir boili reenforce over the elbows, shoulders, forearms, and chest. Metal full guantlets. Cuir boili or metal full leg harness. Helmet with aventail (and reenforced with some sort of neck protection). Visor shall not allow entry of a 1" wide X 3/16" thick blade.

Weapons shall be no narrower than 1", with the exception of the tip, which must be rounded over the radius of a quarter. Edges must be a minimum of 1/8" thick. No restriction on shields, so long as there are no offensive projections.

No thrusting shall be allowed, at least at first. Grappling shall be allowed to a limited degree, as joint locks can get icky.

What do you think?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Trevor:
<B>Why make a plastic face protector? Why not a visored helmet? (Or perhaps you're pre-12th century...)

I had in mind 14th c. armor for my experiment.

I wanted, as a minimunm, a gambeson with metal or cuir boili reenforce over the elbows, shoulders, forearms, and chest. Metal full guantlets. Cuir boili or metal full leg harness. Helmet with aventail (and reenforced with some sort of neck protection). Visor shall not allow entry of a 1" wide X 3/16" thick blade.

Weapons shall be no narrower than 1", with the exception of the tip, which must be rounded over the radius of a quarter. Edges must be a minimum of 1/8" thick. No restriction on shields, so long as there are no offensive projections.

No thrusting shall be allowed, at least at first. Grappling shall be allowed to a limited degree, as joint locks can get icky.

What do you think?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If the blade edge is 1/8th and the visor won't allow a 3/16th's edge to enter, you have a problem.

Personally, I think it's unacceptably hazardous to hit people at anything like "full force" with steel. An 1/8th edge means a tremendous amount of energy focused on a very small area. Armor doesn't have to be cut for the person inside it to be hurt.

Of course, I get the impression that "full force" means very different things to different people.

Gavin

Endre Fodstad: The fighting styles of Scandinavia and Northen Germany sound pretty close to the Aussie target areas, although joints are out for us, removing the need for elbow protectors and (theoretically) knees. Only vertical head shots as well, as we are playing with open faced helmets.

Trevor: heavy armour can be very protective and in our cross-timeperiod re-enactment events, we often hit the plate guys pretty much full force to make them feel the blow. They do get dented armour, a lot more from steel then rattan. One guy I saw had a crease 3/4 inches deep in his metal legs.

Your idea sounds good, no face thrusts is probably a good start, it also means you can dispence with tiny eyeholes. You must also remember that although your armour will protect you from the edge, a full force shot to the side of the head can still do some damage. Same as front of the shin. It isn't the blade that is doing the damage but the impact of stoping your leg when your body wants to keep moving.

Do you play SCA at the moment? Have you got in contact with any of the historical fencing groups? My understanding is that they go as fast as they have to too get the shot in.

Fighting in 15th century Armor is pretty well proof against sword-cuts, so there is little point to practicing them.

The same is not true of 12th century mail, which is our assumed standard. (OK, swords won't generally cut mail, but it still hurts.)

Trevor, about the proposed rule, a 3/16" gap should admit a sword with a 1/8" edge about 1/2". Making the openings 3/16x1" seems safer, but not absolute. And if you want to practice 14th century combat you have to include thrusts.

I keep looking for the perfect sword-simulator. Until I find it I think using steel for low-speed practice and full force pell work and rattan for free-form combat makes the most sense.

The 3/16" gap isn't the point. It's the 1" wide blade that provides the modicum of safety.

I'm thinking about the vertically slotted, cheese-grater type occularia that you see around 1400 AD. That should prevent a blade from getting in.

As to the perfect fight simulator, I can't think of any way to really simulate real combat unless you're in real combat, unfortunately. I have to admit that I briefly entertained the thought of starting a real fight (with seconds present to break it up if imminent life-threatening situations occur), but that's a Taaaad bit extreme.

Head over to www.jousting.co.nz, the IJA holds a competitive steel foot combat as part of the overall tournament.

------------------
Cheers
Rod
Sweat more in Training.
Bleed less in War.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Trevor:
<B>Why make a plastic face protector? Why not a visored helmet? (Or perhaps you're pre-12th century...)

What do you think?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sound good. I'd stuff some modern materials underneat the armour - especially at joints, and perhaps also at the sides of the head. You can never bee too safe with the joints, it's cheap, and rigid plastic compounds are the perfect blade buffer.

I'm early 14th/late 13th(1299-1319). Full helmets(from that period) were usually not used much on foot historically - for a reason: they obstruct vision too much. Fighting on foot against a single opponent, with the mobility needed there, is just too restricting - don't think we haven't tried!
A plastic face shield will still look like shit, but you'd be able to thrust against the face.

Iachedaon: I know. Some of our guys were in contact with several Aussie groups earlier and it was their arguments that got us to include head attacks.

To me, a full-force blow usually also includes the amount of control needed to get a proper cut in. Force is perhaps only 1/3 of the equation.
In regards to the protection of mail, a sturdy gambeson and mail seems to take most of the oomph out of a sword blow. A thrust is, of course, another matter.

EF

True, mail and padding us usually enough but if he is talking full force, I would suggest more.

I'm glad you fight head blows, much more fun.

Some of the members of our group went along to a few SCA trainings, just to get to know the local boffer brigade. They were "encouraged not to come back" as they were hitting to hard. 'Cause our normal fighting uses full swings, and more of a follow through, as opposed to the SCA flick, they were literally knocking people off their feet with the force of their shots.

As you say, it's not about how fast the blow comes in but how you do it.

The other option for helmets is to use a farily close helmet and put fencing mesh on the inside.

Let's not get too arrogant here , there's some worth in almost all fighting styles in trying to approach the real thing from different angles. There also seems to be a great deal of difference between SCA groups in how they fight.
Of course I'd never abandon steel. And head blows have to to stay!

EF

To me a good blow requires control and geometry.

A full-force blow requires speed. If my opponents controling a blow means that I get an extra 3/100 seconds to slip it, it ain't full force.

This isn't a big deal if you fight 15th century style, since a sword cut isn't going to break the armor anyway. But it does make a difference in 11-13th century armor and weapons.

And it is just as big a mistake to assume 15th century fectbuchs apply to 12th century combat as it was for us to assume 19th century epee play worked for 16th century rapier.

Hi Lylef,

From Bob Charrons (and others)work, there is every reason to think that the martial arts forms of Europe have a very ancient heriatage, and basic principles of form (especially unarmed combat) in part go back to Greece.

The disconnect between 19h century epee work and clasical rapier mark the difference between an ahletic sport, and a real comba skill. Looking o simlar weapons (the single hand arming sword in the case of 'earlier' weapons), here would be every reason to hink the form of use would match from the latter to the earlier.

What you should look to is some of the recent work in Scottish (18th century) broadsword and targe as a possible source of enlightenment. Recent examination of sources like he 'Pennechuck artists' sketches of Highland sword practice, by people working in HWMA, shows what looks to be a style of use *exremely similar* to the common wards and footwork of he German schools of swordsmanship - the difference being he sword in one hand, and of course the target. Medieval and ancient artwork show the shield and sword used in precisely similar fashion - there is no reason to think that there is not a connection. Keep in mind the shock of British commentators at he power and effectiveness of the cutting blow of the highlanders (administered with passing footwork - very mobile, no static - when static it lost it's effectiveness), and compare the descripions to what you find in Livy, Caesar, and Tacitus regarding he Norhern Barbarians.

At any rate, some work has been done by adapting some of what we know about German technique, and the forms shown in the Pennechuck sketches and other sources in reconstruction of technique, or so I am told.

------------------
Bob R.

The similarities of the different European styles can also be exported into the asian martial arts department. Kendjutsu practiconers who actually bother to look at the western styles find quite a lot of similarities. This is reasonable enough: You've got a human body and a blade(though single-egded in kenjutsu)...it's like sex - only so many ways to do it.

This is the reason my primarily I.33 crowd looks a lot at later styles, and also why Bob Charron has held Fiori seminars for us and Jörg Bellinghausen has lectured on Talhoffer. With the small amount of surviving WMA manuals, a broadening of study seems, to us, necessary for developing our freestyle and step-by-step training.

EF

I didn't say it was a big mistake.

I have yet to find anything from Saviolo to Alfieri that my epee maitre didn't teach me. The problem is the basic dui tempi moves don't apply well to the heavier rapier. You have to dig out the stop attacks and opposition moves he taught to advanced students.

(This was a real problem for me until M. Adam Crowne explained single time, again,on the rapier list. "Hey," post I, "That is just a riposte with opposition. It can't be that easy?" "Yes, it is" he replied.)

It appears the same applies to Fiore and Talhoffer. The principles are the same and many of the moves carry over but the emphasis is different. It is possible the most important 12-13th century techniques didn't even make it into the books as they weren't particularly useful against plate, just as modern fencing pays little attention to voiding and opposition. But we won't know without study and experiments.

Last time I checked there were quite a few unarmoured techniques in both Fiori and Talhoffer...they'd be applicable, I suppose. And wrestling will never go out of fashion.

Of course, one should choose with care.

EF

Unarmored and armored in plate, yes. Nothing for XIIa warswords and mail hauberks. A lot of the techniques will work, but the fechtbuchs don't say which.

Just like Costello or Gaugler won't tell you which epee moves work with rapiers.

Lyelf wrote:Without controlled blows rebated steel is too dangerous and/or expensive. With controled blows it blurs the line between theatrical display and martial art. I can't see the SCA going there.
-------------------------------------------
I hate to mention this Lyelf, but the SCA most certainly does imploy the use Controlled Blows. The simplest examples being 'excessive force rules' and 'faceshot' rules etc. It is because many people in the SCA ignore these safety concerns that the SCA has far more injuries per event than I have seen at steel shows. When people start having to use metal vambraces because people are breaking arms then someone is not doing what they should be.

Also, if you fought with a steel weapon you would know that the force you use in the SCA would not need to be used in steel combat and if it were you run the risk of loosing or damaging you weapon.

Case in point: Spears. If you ever fought steel spear or used one against a carcas or water mellon you would see that the force needed to penitrate is far less than we use in the SCA. If you imployed the same amount of force in steel combat you would certainly achieve the same effect: a dead enemy. However, you probably would not get your weapon back now that it is buried deeply in flesh, muscle and bone.

SCA combat and steel combat are very close in nature. Much more so than I would have guessed, Though in the SCA I see far more people falling back on brute force to get the job done and not skill and accuracy.

But that is only one oppinion

Camric

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Case in point: Spears. If you ever fought steel spear or used one against a carcas or water mellon you would see that the force needed to penitrate is far less than we use in the SCA. If you imployed the same amount of force in steel combat you would certainly achieve the same effect: a dead enemy. However, you probably would not get your weapon back now that it is buried deeply in flesh, muscle and bone.</font>

Been there, done that. But what about the force necessary to penetrate a carcass wraped in linen, wool, and riveted mail?

It is possible that SCA standards of force are unneccesarily high. They may be too low. AFAIK, a good replica sword will cause crush damage, even through mail and padding, with an SCA-style blow and that will do for the time being.

Historic warriors seldom got in more than 1-2 furballs a year. I doubt they were as concerned as we moderns with protecting their sword blades.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lacheadon:
<B>True, mail and padding us usually enough but if he is talking full force, I would suggest more.

I'm glad you fight head blows, much more fun.

Some of the members of our group went along to a few SCA trainings, just to get to know the local boffer brigade. They were "encouraged not to come back" as they were hitting to hard. 'Cause our normal fighting uses full swings, and more of a follow through, as opposed to the SCA flick, they were literally knocking people off their feet with the force of their shots.

As you say, it's not about how fast the blow comes in but how you do it.

The other option for helmets is to use a farily close helmet and put fencing mesh on the inside.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"the SCA flick" ??? roflmao.

I don't know what group your people visited, but that's a woefully misinformed concept.

As for knocking people over with blows, that usually means it was a push rather than a strike, and as such pretty much ineffective use of any sword.

Velocity is a very real part of the equation for making a sword work.

Gavin