A note form the BoD that effects the Historical Combat Serie

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:40 pm

this was from the BoD's minutes:

A. Society Marshal's Policy Interpretations - remanded from April 2003
meeting

Two policy rulings which had been remanded from the Society Marshal's
April
2003 report were approved by the Board:

1. The Frameas thrust-and-throw javelin is approved for SCA use.
This has been added to SCA Missile Combat rules.
2. The Society Marshal reported that some Pas d'Armes-type tournaments,
particularly "As Real Men Fought" tournaments, are being held in various
kingdoms with certain combat dispensations, i.e., grappling. It is the Society Marshal's interpretation of the Pas rule in the current handbook that this is not allowed and should not be allowed.
Section V.C. of the handbook, under acknowledgement of blows, clearly limits Pas dispensations to one method of alternate blow calling, counted blows and nothing else.
Therefore, all and any special combats may not include any form of grappling and all such actions will cease immediately.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:01 pm

Unless there is some "unwritten rule" about grappling, I don't see anything about it at the Historic Combat Series Website...

Verbatim from website:

"As Real Men Fought" (Period Victory Conditions Tourney)
The purpose of this tournament is to focus on period methods for determining victory in a bout. This will be done through rules taken from period tournaments of the 14th and 15th century and modern rules used to simulate a period victory condition. Combatants will be assumed to be wearing late 14th century armour with either an open faced or close face helm depending upon what the combatant is actually wearing.

Either a double elimination or round robin style format will be used depending upon number of attendee's.

Period rules:
Anyone who is driven from the list has lost.
Anyone who falls with 3 points to the ground has lost (knee, knee, hand for example)
A dropped weapon does not stop the fight.
A combatant may yield at any time.

Modern rules:
Anyone receiving a thrust to an open faced helm has lost

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:46 pm

(sorry no spell check on this machine)

Neat, I've actually managed to get inderect mention in a BOD rulling.

Like Broadway stated grappling is not mentioned in the rules of the tourney. The tourney runs according to the rules of the list of the SCA which allow for different assumed armour. The assumed armour is 15th century which seems to be relatively impervious to blows.

V. ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF BLOWS
A. When judging the effect of blows, all fighters are presumed to be fully armored.
Special tournaments or combat may be held which may redefine what areas of the
body are armored, and to what extent, so long as all the participants are made
aware of the special conditions prior to the start of combat.

I wish the Society EM would have emailed me directly and I could have clarified it with him. I guess I'll have to email him after Pennsic.

Thanks for the heads up Sarnac.

Asbjorn

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:47 pm

Invite him to come play with you.

jester · Post by **jester** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sarnac:
this was from the BoD's minutes:

A. Society Marshal's Policy Interpretations - remanded from April 2003
meeting

Two policy rulings which had been remanded from the Society Marshal's
April
2003 report were approved by the Board:

1. The Frameas thrust-and-throw javelin is approved for SCA use.
This has been added to SCA Missile Combat rules.
2. The Society Marshal reported that some Pas d'Armes-type tournaments,
particularly "As Real Men Fought" tournaments, are being held in various
kingdoms with certain combat dispensations, i.e., grappling. It is the Society Marshal's interpretation of the Pas rule in the current handbook that this is not allowed and should not be allowed.
Section V.C. of the handbook, under acknowledgement of blows, clearly limits Pas dispensations to one method of alternate blow calling, counted blows and nothing else.
Therefore, all and any special combats may not include any form of grappling and all such actions will cease immediately.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh?

Can someone please explain this to me.

It reads like a reminder that grappling is not allowed but I fail to see how the Pas Dispensation rule has anything to do with this.

Are they referring to the period victory conditions? (driven from the list, three points of contact, yield)

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:12 pm

There was some grappling done in both "As Real Men fought" and "Real Plate and Mail" tourneys last year. The rules for this year have been changed (prior to the board ruling).

-Dmitriy

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:47 pm

Just as a side note, grappling, depending on the definition may have occured, but it wasn't a part of the rules.

Asbjorn

Malachiuri · Post by **Malachiuri** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:02 pm

Grappling was allowed in some of the past Pas with the assumption that since it was a historical "cool thing" the marshallate would overlook it.

The Pas mention in the handbooks states that the only devience from the traditional rules is a "counted blows" variant, not what was becoming a "whatever the hell we feel like"

Body-to-body grappling is strictly against SCA combay conventions. Now if you are just moving them with your weapon...

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by BaronMal:


(sorry no spell check)

Body-to-body grappling is strictly against SCA combay conventions. Now if you are just moving them with your weapon...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think here we have the essence of one of the problems.

What grappling means is different from area to area. For example, sections of the East take a very strict interpretation of what "grappling" means. Grappling means to "grasp". I can't grab my opponent, however body contact is fine. Other areas define any contact body to body to be grappling. This is one of the confusing issues.

Asbjorn

Magnus The Black · Post by **Magnus The Black** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:30 pm

Your right. If I grab my opponents weapon for more than a few seconds here it is considered grappleing. Frankly I think if can toss him about by the shaft of his pole arm then he is consenting as long as he holds on to it and since I am not touching his person on the handle of his weapon I'm not grappleing him. What harm could come of this? Lets face it I smack wim with a two handed sword that will smart but how will moving his wepon and gaining contol of it hurt him?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Asbjorn Johansen:
 I think here we have the essence of one of the problems.

What grappling means is different from area to area. For example, sections of the East take a very strict interpretation of what "grappling" means. Grappling means to "grasp". I can't grab my opponent, however body contact is fine. Other areas define any contact body to body to be grappling. This is one of the confusing issues.

Asbjorn<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:59 pm

Make them defing grappling, there was no ground fighting. So last years rules should be fine.

Trust the bod to choose the staus quo.

How does this effect the Tuchuck list, or just the HCS lists.

Or are the Chucks allowed to have their own speical rules again.

Asbjorn did anyone on the BOD talk to you before this to actually find out what was going on?

Talk to the SEM afaik he used to do some similar stuff to the ARMF list and might be helpful.

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:33 pm

I'm almost afraid to have the grappling rule clarrifed. It possibly could remove the more the Easts limited interpretation.

Neither the BOD nor the SEM contacted me concerning any of this. I wish they had, but you know what they say about publicity...

Murdock if you were say kidnapped and forced to go to Pennsylvanai your job wouldn't hold it against you... would they

....

Asbjorn

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:40 pm

How does this effect the Tuchuck list, or just the HCS lists.

Or are the Chucks allowed to have their own speical rules again. 

Nope. The head marshal of pennsicposted something about all combat at pennsic being done under the rules of combat.

Then he mentioned that anyone caught violating this would eb tossed off site.

I applauded him for his smooth manoevering, as it seemed that he disliked the chux, and perhaps the goal of the clarification was to allow an easy excuse to kick the tuchux out.

-+G

Ulrich · Post by **Ulrich** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:07 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Asbjorn Johansen:
Just as a side note, grappling, depending on the definition may have occured, but it wasn't a part of the rules.

Asbjorn<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/images/HCS/Men/4.jpg

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/images/HCS/Men/6.jpg

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/images/HCS/Men/14.jpg

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/images/HCS/Men/16.jpg

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/images/HCS/Men/17.jpg

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/images/HCS/Men/20.jpg

hmm looks like grappling to me...certainly has the appearance of some "ground fighting" as well. if that's not grappling...I'd hate to see what is.

If this is what went on. I can see where the ruling came from.

Ulrich
*edit to fix a link*

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 07-31-2003).]

Roderick · Post by **Roderick** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 8:08 am

Oh, those two guys are just dating......

;-)

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 8:18 am

wow.....I hadnt seen those pictures.

I guess I can see why they clarified this.

Asbjorn.....I guess you made the "big time" now.... how does it feel???

Ian Mac D · Post by **Ian Mac D** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 8:43 am

As far as I recall the "grapling" in ARMF was a choice of the two combatants. The victory conditions were decided upon be both combatants. In my first bout is was five counted blows. In my second bout it was until the opponent yeilded, was face thrusted or was driven out of the list. A combantant was to be assumed to have yeilded if they went to the ground. My worthy opponent and I had chosen to fight great sword and had chosen to mildly "grapple". I unfortunately lost the bout (landed on the ground) and was out of the tourney but I felt it was one of the best tournaments I have fought in EVER. I (as my shires knightmarshal) had my own ARMF tourney at my next shires event and it also was a complete blast. The newer fighters were on a much more even field against the more experienced fighters then they normally would be. Thank you Asbjorn for some of the best fighting I have been apart of in my 13 years in the SCA. I hope the BODs insistance in NO GRAPPLING doesn't ruin the spirit of HCS.
Ian Mac Donald

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'I had an epiphany once, then I mercilessly beat someone till it went away'- Tyr Anasazi (Andromeda)

jester · Post by **jester** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:03 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sarnac:
wow.....I hadnt seen those pictures.

I guess I can see why they clarified this.

Asbjorn.....I guess you made the "big time" now.... how does it feel???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the Marshal of the Society was specifically targeting anyone. The HCS is simply a perfect example of a something that goes on all the time in the SCA. Most of the marshals I have met have adhered to the "no complaint, no foul" standard. People deviate from the rules all the time, generally when they are fighting with long-time associates. I have seen fighters wrestling on the ground get up laughing. I've seen them throwing each other around by the polearm haft. Just about everybody has seen combats that really push the limits of the rules (and sometimes exceed them). I believe the MotS was simply restating the existing rules: Grappling is not allowed.

Exactly what is grappling? Well, we've had that conversation before. As I understand the rules (Society level) I may not grab or entrap my opponent or anything attached to his body. Pushing, punching, kicking, and tripping are all okay, though. Grabbing non-blade portions of a weapon are also perfectly fine (provided that weapon is not attached to the body by, say, a lanyard).

Bedlam · Post by **Bedlam** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:32 am

Jester said, "I don't think the Marshal of the Society was specifically targeting anyone. The HCS is simply a perfect example of a something that goes on all the time in the SCA. Most of the marshals I have met have adhered to the "no complaint, no foul" standard."

We'll see, my friend, we'll see.

BEDLAM
Bear Clan,
TUCHUX

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:38 am

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/images/HCS/Men/6.jpg

damn yall made the earth tilt with all your testosterone driven fighting

H
look Trevor, your famous

but your ability to mount men on the ground is a bit scarey

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:49 am

Keep in mind those pictures are generally the points in the fights that were slow enough not to be a blur but still interesting. That's why so many of them are of people on the ground after the fight from being driven backwards to remove them from the list or a well timed shove to have them land on the ground. Everything was agreed upon by the two participants and each fight had a set of rules to suit the participants. I lost every fight I was in but I had a blast with all of my opponents.

I dont have a problem with pushing people around in this type of controlled environment, I'm already bashing them with a stick. Grappling in the form of locks/kicks/punches/etc are against the rules, potentially more dangerous, and unnecessary to have a hell of a good tourney like we had last year, which is why they were not used.

The best thing to do is to clarify with your opponent what you want to get out of the fight, and then you can get the most out of it.

Heairn · Post by **Heairn** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:11 pm

Grappling is pretty explicitly defined in the conventions of combat:

IV Use of weapons and shields
A.3 Wrestling with or grappling the opponent, to include grasping the opponent's torso, limbs, shield or weapon's striking surface, blade or head is prohibited.

By explicitly defining what part of the weapon you may NOT touch.. I believe that they leave it as quite acceptable on what "to" touch. Here in Aethelmearc, it is quite acceptable to grasp the haft of your polearm so long as I can do it with an armored hand.

Malcolm

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:57 pm

(sorry no spell check)

Comments on the pictures. Several of these are of Trevor who won the tourney. He had a trick of knocking folks off balance. Unfortunately it would result in both fighters ending up on the ground at times, if he didn't do it right. At times, someone who was falling over would reflexively grab the other combatant.
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/images/HCS/Men/4.jpg

I fell down and lost, he fell over on me. (not intentional) The fight is over at this point. We are not fighting on the ground. Trevor is trying to stand up. (or laughing I remember someone fell on top of me and started laughing)

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/images/HCS/Men/6.jpg

I'm not sure, but my guess is the fighter in burgundy stuck his arm between the other fellows and turned and tried to run off with the weapon. If you notice both fighters have grips on the weapons not each other.

I won several fights like this earlier in the week.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/images/HCS/Men/14.jpg

Drawbacks to being pushed out of the list. One guy falls, the other falls on top.
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/images/HCS/Men/16.jpg

Only one that looks like a true grappling move, but we can't see his left hand. Where is his weapon? His right hand looks like it is on the other fellows haft.

Is there a dagger in his left hand? I don't know.
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/images/HCS/Men/17.jpg

I go to grab his weapon, get off balance. He knocks my hand asside in the process of grabbing my weapon.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/images/HCS/Men/20.jpg

Trevor does his nifty knock you off balance move but manages to lose his balance as well.

Trevor didn't need to grab you to knock you off balance. He used a well placed leg or used your weapon to force you down.

If you don't know the context I can understand the concerns, but any time someone ended up on the ground it was over. Thats right from the rules of the tourney.

Only one image here shows a possible grab but you can't see his hand. It may have been a grab or he may have had a dagger in that hand.

As side note, the only injury in the whole Series last year that I am aware of was due to a blow to a poorly padded/strapped helm.

Asbjorn

[This message has been edited by Asbjorn Johansen (edited 07-31-2003).]

Jantien van Vranckenvoert · Fri Aug 01, 2003 7:18 am

I've grabbed shields and hafts of polearms with an armoured hand in Ansteorra and at Gulf Wars, I found myself sans-spear at GW, left to defend myself with only a dagger, asked a marshall about grabbing shields, he said it was legal, just that he wouldn't do it....but I'm nuts and had a whole bunch of fun right up against the wall that battle.

DukeGareth · Post by **DukeGareth** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:28 am

Jentien, that marshal was wrong. It is not legal to grab a shield.

Gareth, Meridies

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jentien:
I've grabbed shields and hafts of polearms with an armoured hand in Ansteorra and at Gulf Wars, I found myself sans-spear at GW, left to defend myself with only a dagger, asked a marshall about grabbing shields, he said it was legal, just that he wouldn't do it....but I'm nuts and had a whole bunch of fun right up against the wall that battle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

gmandragora · Post by **gmandragora** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:53 am

Greetings,

___________________________________________
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/images/HCS/Men/6.jpg

I'm not sure, but my guess is the fighter in burgundy stuck his arm between the other fellows and turned and tried to run off with the weapon. If you notice both fighters have grips on the weapons not each other.
_______________________________________

I'm the guy in burgandy, fighting with Erinfried. At this point, I had lost old of my pole arm with my right hand as Erinfried had just given me a push with his pole arm toward the gate. I'd turned to avoid his pushand was attempting to regain my hold on the weapon when we got tangled. I then attempted a "big step" to turn and attack. Erinfried took an even bigger step and I found myself still tangled and off balance. A light tap from his pole and I was on the ground.

A tough well fought bout, but not grappling.

Geoffrey

paladin11 · Post by **paladin11** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:21 am

I was present at just about every event for the HCS at Pennsic last year and it was very well run. I did not take part in every event, but if I wasn't fighting, I was watching.

Asbjorn was very clear in the rules and there was absolutely no grappling that would be considered against SCA rules.

The combat was definitely much more physical than your run-of-the-mill SCA fighting, but it was done safely and enjoyably by all combatants.

Tristan d'Elsmere

Rey · Post by **Rey** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:28 pm

Hello All,

For those that don't know me, I am Viscount Sir Rey RiBeaumont. I am one of the Society Earl Marshalâ€™s Deputies. I am also the person heading up the committee to review how or if to incorporate Fechtbuch and limited grappling into the SCA under the Marshalâ€™s office. The Society Earl Marshal, Robert Glendon of Auk has asked that I pass this along to you all. Also you are welcome to contact he or I if you have any questions regarding this.

Rey
sirreyksca@hotmail.com

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I just got done telling the Rapier community about this, so I guess this is timely.

I believe that a common misconception persists about grappling; to wit, it only consists of "grabbing". Now, I know that the Society level rules are not very explicit but I'm about to fix that.

Grappling is any intentional or overt contact of hands/feet/appendages to the other fighters person. Pushing, slapping, tripping, knee leverages and falling on,
head butting,etc., all apply. Incidental contact, during a charge for example, is not the same thing and is going to happen. Allowances have to be made during Melee/close combat. I am not saying incidental contact will not be made during tourney fighting but the occurrence is low and the differences clearer.

I do not know why, but the Pas Dispensation and the current study of later period fighting techniques have bred a host of confusions. Let me state for the record
that no one in the SCA , in any combat form or class, is allowed to grapple.

Having said that, it may interest some to know that I have appointed a committee to study such things as Fechtbuch and other period disciplines. No promises are
made but this office is trying to figure out how/if these things can be done or should be done.

Until you hear from your friendly Society Marshal though, ya'll keep your hands to yourself.
Robert Glendon of Auk
SEM
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V. Sir Rey RiBeaumont
Kingdom of Meridies
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jester · Post by **jester** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:56 pm

How is combat defined?

My reading of Corpora seems to indicate that only competitive martial activities are intended to be considered combat.

Where is the line? I don't think dancing is combat, but I also don't think that a non-competitive martial class is combat.