Foam is Bad

[Thorstenn]

So, are you a danger to yourself

Thor-

Hang on...when has a thrust broken a bone? Is there any documentation on this?

I have personally had ribs broken by thrusts on 3 occasions. All of them were more my own fault than the perso hitting me, and would not affect my willingness to fight with stiffer tips.

[Thorstenn]

You are absolutely correct! but they are the reason that rules are stricter than they otherwise might need to be.
Prepare for the worst hope for the best.

Thor-

...but we have a shitload of weekend or by monthly warriors out there who are taught to throw as hard as they can no matter what.

Thor-

That is a problem that NO weapon rule can fix.

[Blaine de Navarre]

So, are you a danger to yourself

Thor-

Hang on...when has a thrust broken a bone? Is there any documentation on this?

I have personally had ribs broken by thrusts on 3 occasions. All of them were more my own fault than the perso hitting me, and would not affect my willingness to fight with stiffer tips.

Not most of the time, Your Grace, but apparently I have a bad habit of swan-diving onto spears.

[Aaron]

Blaine de Navarre,

Thank you for the laugh and smile. I had this vision of a SCA heavy fighter climbing a high-diving ladder and doing a swan dive with a triple spin and corkscrew into an Olympic sized pool filled with SCA spearmen, with all the spears sticking up.

I'll head back to lurking again.

[Sir Omarad]

Some clarifications.
1. I didn't ban anyone from any Marshal lists. I closed the lists and created a forum where each Kingdom was allowed to register a few people.

2. There have not been helmet penetrations since the larger heads were introduced.

3. A few Kingdoms experimented with no foam tips and it met with mixed success.

[William de Faleston]

Okay, I'm game, but as long as we're hatin' on foam, lets talk about foam requirements on polearms. I'm convinced that one of the reasons for spear superiority in melee is that we usually aren't allows to have clackers on polearms and one-handed axes. Some guys will take hits that move their head a foot to the side because they don't hear a clank. I would love to see clackers or unpadded built-up leather in weapon heads, even if we had to further restrict weight. In line with what Sir Falcone says, I think squishy foam makes us lazy and uncontrolled there too.

[Sir Omarad]

That is probably a Kingdom requirement.
Check the marshal's handbook.
http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/doc ... ndbook.pdf

Okay, I'm game, but as long as we're hatin' on foam, lets talk about foam requirements on polearms. I'm convinced that one of the reasons for spear superiority in melee is that we usually aren't allows to have clackers on polearms and one-handed axes. Some guys will take hits that move their head a foot to the side because they don't hear a clank. I would love to see clackers or unpadded built-up leather in weapon heads, even if we had to further restrict weight. In line with what Sir Falcone says, I think squishy foam makes us lazy and uncontrolled there too.

[Thorstenn]

Just say NO!!!

Thor-

So, are you a danger to yourself

Thor-

Hang on...when has a thrust broken a bone? Is there any documentation on this?

I have personally had ribs broken by thrusts on 3 occasions. All of them were more my own fault than the perso hitting me, and would not affect my willingness to fight with stiffer tips.

Not most of the time, Your Grace, but apparently I have a bad habit of swan-diving onto spears.

[Leo Medii]

Okay, I'm game, but as long as we're hatin' on foam, lets talk about foam requirements on polearms. I'm convinced that one of the reasons for spear superiority in melee is that we usually aren't allows to have clackers on polearms and one-handed axes. Some guys will take hits that move their head a foot to the side because they don't hear a clank. I would love to see clackers or unpadded built-up leather in weapon heads, even if we had to further restrict weight. In line with what Sir Falcone says, I think squishy foam makes us lazy and uncontrolled there too.

DING!

And my opinion is moot. I'd still be fighting just as hard if we switched to steel, and the spears had those european 1" steel balls on the end.

[Duke Patrick O'Malley]

I have had cracked ribs from padded thrusting tips on swords. There are people I would trust with no padding. There are others that will never have that level of control.

[benz72]

You are absolutely correct! but they are the reason that rules are stricter than they otherwise might need to be.
Prepare for the worst hope for the best.

Thor-

...but we have a shitload of weekend or by monthly warriors out there who are taught to throw as hard as they can no matter what.

Thor-

That is a problem that NO weapon rule can fix.

This IS a problem that a Society can, well... if not fix, then at least control. Teaching this is, IMO valuing your home teams' win above the safety of your opponent. In any game that purports to value good sportsmanship, the society overseeing the game should reject such teachings. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the post as an absolute, or maybe I've been lucky enough to fight in a lot of places and not encounter this, but "as hard as they can no matter what" seems like the fast track to blue card confetti.

[Peikko]

Okay, I'm game, but as long as we're hatin' on foam, lets talk about foam requirements on polearms. I'm convinced that one of the reasons for spear superiority in melee is that we usually aren't allows to have clackers on polearms and one-handed axes. Some guys will take hits that move their head a foot to the side because they don't hear a clank. I would love to see clackers or unpadded built-up leather in weapon heads, even if we had to further restrict weight. In line with what Sir Falcone says, I think squishy foam makes us lazy and uncontrolled there too.

DING!

And my opinion is moot. I'd still be fighting just as hard if we switched to steel, and the spears had those european 1" steel balls on the end.

+1

[Diglach Mac Cein]

I agree with some sort of clacker - even if it was a strip of silo-flex.

Or train fighters to take the shot in the first place.

Not allowed in the Midrealm right now, though.

Okay, I'm game, but as long as we're hatin' on foam, lets talk about foam requirements on polearms. I'm convinced that one of the reasons for spear superiority in melee is that we usually aren't allows to have clackers on polearms and one-handed axes. Some guys will take hits that move their head a foot to the side because they don't hear a clank. I would love to see clackers or unpadded built-up leather in weapon heads, even if we had to further restrict weight. In line with what Sir Falcone says, I think squishy foam makes us lazy and uncontrolled there too.

DING!

And my opinion is moot. I'd still be fighting just as hard if we switched to steel, and the spears had those european 1" steel balls on the end.

+1

[Stahlgrim]

we should just go back to ash spears

[Thomas MacFinn]

I agree with some sort of clacker - even if it was a strip of silo-flex.

Or train fighters to take the shot in the first place.

Not allowed in the Midrealm right now, though.

However split and laminated polearms are both allowed. One of the things in the midrealm rules I never quite understood.

[Thomas MacFinn]

If we put foam inside them instead of a washer, aren't all of these things legal now? Once upon a time, I used a trailer hitch cover over my foam for my thursting tips.

Not to derail, but how about rubber chair feet for sword thrusties:



(washer keeps it from tearing)


and cruch feet for spears/poles:

[Stahlgrim]

Absence of the Audible
Foam thrusties and edge padding remove from the acknowledgment process the audible information used with every other strike.

but in a melee how are you going to tell if that was on your armor or your buddies by sound?I mean your saying you can't feel it so...

Foam Fails Far Faster
Foam wears out over time and it's inspection is a time consuming factor for both fighters and the marshals. Rely on foam and people get f&*ked up when it fails, and it will fail.

two points
1. Due diligence,don't be lazy check your own stuff, a properly made tip can out last a sword.I have had to replace foam, not a big deal, I can do it while watching t.v adding new foam isn't that time consuming.I also have only had my tips fail while fighting a handfull of times and never since Master Feral aught me how to make them properly
2. I know a lot of guys starting with my own knight that can pulp a stick in a couple of practices.They aren't hitting excessively. just doing it properly

CA
just ban C.A.....just kidding. this is one area I could see where we could experiment with to make it better

Expense
Foam, tape, rubber, and everybody's time is expensive. Don't put a proper protective tip on your rattan spear and your spear fails faster.[/quote]
We make people buy specific footwear strictly for appearance, not that I disagree with that, but asking them to take a little time and money to make a proper thrusting tip and check it every couple months?heck just throw some duct tape on that armor cause replacing a rivet takes sooo much more time.

Foam Makes Us Lazy
Ever tried to get a real spear to thrust into a plate or a helmet? How many times did it skip of before you figured out how to make it stick?

we also have indestructible shields and many other anomalies why not change to a osb or melamine shield in a canvas cover/bag so they falls apart as we fight with them?hafts don't get cut or break. swords don't bend or break There are a lot of things we do that make our fighting unrealistic.
I am sorry that thrusting tips are harshing your medieval mellow.but i am just not buying a lot of your arguments
again I say lets bring back hardwood spears while we are venturing down this path.
I am sure His Grace Duke Gavin remembers them.

[D. Sebastian]

I have the 1.25" chair foot on the bottom of my mace, hand axe, dagger...
They are hard rubber and fit very snug.

I think with foam, it would still fail the "compression" test.

Did I understand the question, or were you thinking of something else?

If we put foam inside them instead of a washer, aren't all of these things legal now? Once upon a time, I used a trailer hitch cover over my foam for my thursting tips.

Not to derail, but how about rubber chair feet for sword thrusties:



(washer keeps it from tearing)


and cruch feet for spears/poles:

[BdeB]

3) the only time I bleed in this game is when I get tip-cut from swords without thrusties on em.

While it is certainly not the only time I have bleed in sca combat, I have a nice one inch scar from a 'tip cut' with a Windrose pre-made rubber thrusting tips.

S#$% happens.

[Murdock]

" I used a trailer hitch cover over my foam for my thursting tips. "



OHhhhhhhhh


Trailer hitch _covers_.

I made mine wrong, oops. They were heavy but man did they hit solid.

[B. Amos]

Singles yes, meele no

[William de Faleston]

Umm, I still have a trailer hitch cover thrustie on the pole arm that I plan to actually authorize to use eventually. Lots of people squeezed it and said it was fine. It's actually squishier than my windrose single-sword thrusting tip and and my leather cup and foam tip.

[Thomas MacFinn]

I have the 1.25" chair foot on the bottom of my mace, hand axe, dagger...
They are hard rubber and fit very snug.

I think with foam, it would still fail the "compression" test.

Did I understand the question, or were you thinking of something else?

You understand the question. It occured to me when I started messing around with split rattan polearms (and rathbone axes and clickers) that compressable is not the same as soft.

[raito]

Absence of the Audible
Foam thrusties and edge padding remove from the acknowledgment process the audible information used with every other strike. The absence of the audible also let's people lie, or make many honest mistakes, about the face thrust, body or limb thrust, or the padded polearm strike, or any number of other things. Also, fluffy thrusts are harder to evaluate when the thrust is deliberately made less "feely" for lack of a better term.

Wasn't a problem back when every polearm was required to be padded.

[Kilkenny]

Absence of the Audible
Foam thrusties and edge padding remove from the acknowledgment process the audible information used with every other strike. The absence of the audible also let's people lie, or make many honest mistakes, about the face thrust, body or limb thrust, or the padded polearm strike, or any number of other things. Also, fluffy thrusts are harder to evaluate when the thrust is deliberately made less "feely" for lack of a better term.

Wasn't a problem back when every polearm was required to be padded.

That's definitely a YMMV subject. It was my experience that people definitely had trouble acknowledging polearm strikes appropriately and I heard the observation from many people.

Plus, AFAIK, it's never been a universal requirement for polearms to be padded.

Westies ? Were you ever required to pad your pole weapons - beyond thrusting tips - ?

[Count Johnathan]

Not that I am aware of.

[Aaron]

Absence of the Audible
Foam thrusties and edge padding remove from the acknowledgment process the audible information used with every other strike. The absence of the audible also let's people lie, or make many honest mistakes, about the face thrust, body or limb thrust, or the padded polearm strike, or any number of other things. Also, fluffy thrusts are harder to evaluate when the thrust is deliberately made less "feely" for lack of a better term.

Wasn't a problem back when every polearm was required to be padded.

That's definitely a YMMV subject. It was my experience that people definitely had trouble acknowledging polearm strikes appropriately and I heard the observation from many people.

Plus, AFAIK, it's never been a universal requirement for polearms to be padded.

Westies ? Were you ever required to pad your pole weapons - beyond thrusting tips - ?

I hit people with my padded /rubber pollaxe in the armpit and they were unsure if it was good. I hit people with LESS power with the rattan clacker pollaxe and they instantly say GOOD but it's not excessive.

IMO it's the "clack".

[Gorm]

Umm...East Kingdom had golf ball tipped shafted arrows back at a Kingdom Crusades a decade or so ago...and the *overwhelming* consensus was that they hit far, far, far too hard. they also bounced around like nobody's business.

I might think very, very closely before going down *that* road.

[Kilkenny]

Umm...East Kingdom had golf ball tipped shafted arrows back at a Kingdom Crusades a decade or so ago...and the *overwhelming* consensus was that they hit far, far, far too hard. they also bounced around like nobody's business.

I might think very, very closely before going down *that* road.

Aside from any issue of how hard they hit (and I eliminated the golf ball option from consideration after some testing on my own over just that), golf balls on the ground represent a terrible tripping/ankle twisting hazard.

We've got loads of ways to hurt ourselves out there without adding still more ground hazards But then, I put the Fellwalker points in pretty much the same category - both in tripping hazard and in hitting overly hard.

[Ulrich]

Or train fighters to take the shot in the first place.

This!

Regards
Ulrich

[Magnus Ulfgarsson]

Not a big fan of thrusting tips because I never feel dead.

I'd love no foam. I don't use a tip anyways.

The only thing I ever miss a tip for, is thrusting shields, which half the people I talk to feel is fine to do without a tip, and the other seems to think it's not fine to do without a tip.

I really think it should be fine, but I'm biased... I'm getting off track.

No foam? Sweet.

[shinyhalo]

I love the golf ball idea. I could supply my whole shire with golf balls for free. Not the case with baldar blunts.

[D. Sebastian]

Hadn't thought of siloflex for the clacker...

Siloflex over foam - brilliant!

[Thorbrandr]

Hang on...when has a thrust broken a bone? Is there any documentation on this?

Not broken, but three separated ribs from a spear shot once.

T

[Kean de Lacy]

Blaine de Navarre,

Thank you for the laugh and smile. I had this vision of a SCA heavy fighter climbing a high-diving ladder and doing a swan dive with a triple spin and corkscrew into an Olympic sized pool filled with SCA spearmen, with all the spears sticking up.

I'll head back to lurking again.

I once watched a fighter do a forward flip off of a hay bale wall (maybe four or five bales high) onto a shield wall. Not a swan dive, but it was impressive.