Foam is Bad

For those of us who wish to talk about the many styles and facets of recreating Medieval armed combat.
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Thomas MacFinn
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Post by Thomas MacFinn »

D. Sebastian wrote:Hadn't thought of siloflex for the clacker...

Siloflex over foam - brilliant!


The only material I know of allowed for clackers is rattan. I believe Siloflex is the only place where a weapon shape is specified (tubular, and I assume unbroken).

I had an idea for a half-circle Siloflex clacker on a shaped rattan sword but couldn't find any justification for allowing it in the SCA rules.
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Johann ColdIron
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Post by Johann ColdIron »

Sir Patrick O'Malley wrote:I have had cracked ribs from padded thrusting tips on swords. There are people I would trust with no padding. There are others that will never have that level of control.


I would agree. I love Falcone like a brother and believe he has only good intentions with this but I do not think it is a good idea. I have a bad neck from arthritis that set in after a bad thrust from a padded polearm. I've had ribs seperated by a fiberglass spear. Perhaps that makes me a little gun shy on allowing for more force to be transmitted than we do now. As Patrick said "some will never have that level of control"

Single swords with a thrusting tip can impart plenty of force through the tip. I can up end a pell with one. I know that without using restraint and using period technique I could toss a person off their feet with one. A properly made thrusting tip is both safe and capable of delivering a killing blow.

I am also concerned about going to the Mandrake tips on fiberglass spears as well but that is for a different thread.
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Aaron
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Post by Aaron »

The probem I have with the foam and the thrusting tip is that people call them light.

It's covered for your safety. Calling it light is taking deliberate advantage of an opponent's safety-consciousness.


Any behavior that takes deliberate advantage of an opponent’s chivalry or safety-consciousness, or that takes deliberate unfair advantage of an opponent, is prohibited.


By the rules calling any padded weapon (tip or sides) light is illegal Behavior on the Field but it's followed all the time. :(

What I've seen on the Archive follows a pattern:

1. "I don't allow my squires to use thrusting tips, they don't work."

2. "If we don't pad the weapons or use thrusting tips, there will be death and mayhem and big people bleeding internally and spears stuck clean through dukes and kings."

There is a VERY easy way to make sure the thrusting tip stay on the weapons for safety. ANY padded weapon CANNOT be called LIGHT and any touch is good. Otherwise take OFF the padding and then see what happens. People scream and run.

Those with padded weapons would tone down their shots because the extra effort isn't necessary, and the shots would land lighter. Or we can go to solid rattan weapons and throw lighter shots that hit reasonably hard because we don't have the safety foam.


The situation with just going to the "Scottish Tips" on spears rather than straight PVC pipe ends with some duct tape for splinters shows that people are taking deliberate advantage of safety regulations to call something "light" due to the padding when they would yell "MEDIC!!" if we removed the pad and did the same shot...and drag you to Marshal's court for your lack of chivalry and safety. :roll:

It's sleazy IMO. And I'll say it again, it's gamesmanship. When you make something safe but still demand to be hit with a clack it's odd.

People can hit me with rattan swords willy-nilly but I've had to hit people hard enough to take them off their feet to accept a shot with my padded pollaxe. It's not them, it's the weapon. When I've added clackers I've had to put much less effort into the shot to get acceptance. If we took the foam away entirely it would act like a pollaxe, the feared weapon of the Middle Ages.

That was the problem I had on the other thread discussing the "Scottish Tips".

I've wanted to go to a solid rattan pollaxe for awhile and see what the change is in acceptance levels. We have solid swords, why not solid pollaxes?
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Noe
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Post by Noe »

I have experience that backs up both sides of this.


Pro-no padding thrusting tip:

The local standard of armour here locally is...rather high. As Lord Aaron can attest our guys -- and the influence of the Archive cannot be overstated here-- like armour and they like a lot of it.

But what I find is that, with the padded tip, you have to really crank up in order to get a thrust called to plate armour. And that is fine, except when you say, miss the breast breastplate with a dagger and stab them in the armpit. And then someone gets their ribs broken.

I would maintain that a hard tip would get more consistent responses, so that the thrusting guys wouldn't have to up their power.

Pro-padding thrusting tip:

Although getting a consistant hit would reduce required power significantly, the problem is it is not a forgiving system. Even the best fighter can at some point put too much umph on it, or have the experince of an opponent throwing himself on his thrust. I've seen damage done that way, even will fully padded spears, and I cannot help but to believe that a hard thrusting tip would be worse.

So my answer is inconclusive. I'm willing to be the test dommy, though.
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juan
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Post by juan »

D. Sebastian wrote:Not to derail, but how about rubber chair feet for sword thrusties:



I've used them, on homemade dagger wasters made out of lengths of 3/4" wood dowel. It hurts, even through a gambeson, but no one ever got killed with them.
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Post by Peikko »

Noe wrote:...But what I find is that, with the padded tip, you have to really crank up in order to get a thrust called to plate armour. And that is fine, except when you say, miss the breast breastplate with a dagger and stab them in the armpit. And then someone gets their ribs broken...


Well, there's yer problem right there. Why are you stabbing the man's armour in the first place? There's a perfectly good armpit just waiting to be stabbed. Thrusts, especially daggers, directed at armour are martially unsound and poor form.

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Jonathon More
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Post by Jonathon More »

Broadway wrote:I'd be comfortable thrusting without doing anything other than rounding the edges of the rattan at the tip a small bit.


and a little heat shrink electrical tube to keep the splinters out of my eye. I would be cool with that for rattan.
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Armand d'Alsace
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Post by Armand d'Alsace »

I've never been stabbed with an unpadded tip, but I would be willing to recieve a few stabs with it in order to form an opinion.
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Count Johnathan
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Post by Count Johnathan »

The reason we pad thrusting tips is due the the reduced surface area at the point of contact. While our armor is intended to reduce the trauma of impact, our weapon construction and safety features are intended to reduce the impact trauma when an unarmored area is struck, at least in regards to thrusting tips.

Stab an unarmored area with a rounded rattan stick and you will see what I mean.

A thrust to armor, no problem.
A hit to the armpit, rib, or pelvis...nasty.
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olaf haraldson
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Post by olaf haraldson »

I have. We played with it outside official SCA practices. I like it.

Count Johnathan wrote:The reason we pad thrusting tips is due the the reduced surface area at the point of contact. While our armor is intended to reduce the trauma of impact, our weapon construction and safety features are intended to reduce the impact trauma when an unarmored area is struck, at least in regards to thrusting tips.

Stab an unarmored area with a rounded rattan stick and you will see what I mean.

A thrust to armor, no problem.
A hit to the armpit, rib, or pelvis...nasty.
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