I've heard a lot of people complain of being used as pin-cushins in melees, but I haven't heard a lot of advice in how to prevent that from happening.
While we don't have heavy horse to go chase archers and their ilk down, what can we do as heavy fighters to reduce their effectiveness?
Fighting Combat Archery on the Field
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Kenwrec Wulfe
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Get a small unit of quick-moving, light armored fighters and make them harrier troops to flank and run around the main body.
Would not work in a bridge battle, but we did that in a small field battle (about 25 per side) - I lead a group of 3 around the left flank and we totally eliminated their archers - We were ganked by a group of spears, but it was worth the sacrifice. Our side only lost 7 total, and we were 4 of the loss...
I have seen other strategies work in the more open battles as well, but it often deals with a flanking group.
Of course - this is based upon limited experience, so take it for what it is worth.
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"It is not the oath that gives me faith in the man, but the man that gives me faith in the oath."
With Honor,
Kenwrec Wulfe
Squire to Sir Galen of Bristol
The 1/2 Scottish, 1/2 Norman, English-raised Irishman of the Early-Late Mid Period.
Would not work in a bridge battle, but we did that in a small field battle (about 25 per side) - I lead a group of 3 around the left flank and we totally eliminated their archers - We were ganked by a group of spears, but it was worth the sacrifice. Our side only lost 7 total, and we were 4 of the loss...
I have seen other strategies work in the more open battles as well, but it often deals with a flanking group.
Of course - this is based upon limited experience, so take it for what it is worth.
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"It is not the oath that gives me faith in the man, but the man that gives me faith in the oath."
With Honor,
Kenwrec Wulfe
Squire to Sir Galen of Bristol
The 1/2 Scottish, 1/2 Norman, English-raised Irishman of the Early-Late Mid Period.
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Vitus von Atzinger
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Ivar here,
As Wulfe said, use a small force of lightly armoured, fast moving flankers to get into the opponents backfield and scatter and/or kill the opposing archers. Even if you do not kill them all, you will reduce their effectiveness through being an immediate distraction.
A few caveats for flankers:
1. Make sure your flankers have shields! Narrow kites work pretty well for this purpose. You don't want a particularly broad shield to block your vision. Flankers need to a more archer-like perception of the battlefield. Their threats and oppotunities are much broader and deeper than line fighting.
2. Add a couple of your own archers (by preference not crossbows) to your flanking party. They give your flankers a better chance against spearmen who may be defending the opposing archers. Also the opposing archers will tend not be looking for arrows coming in from their flank. Besides killing a couple, your friendly flanking archers can disorient the opposing archers and allow your swordsmen to close with them with less chance of taking fire.
3. Do not fixate on chasing one particular archer or group of archers. (Unless of course you have been tasked with eliminating a particularly dangerous archer). The danger of getting into a chase is that the archers you don't chase can end up chasing you, or if the group you are chasing is large enough, they can split up and present you with the dilemma of either splitting up or ignoring the group that split off. If the opposing archers have any training as a group, they'll be using horse archer tactics. Don't get suckered.
4. Think light cavalry tactics. Keep moving. Don't get bogged down in a stand up fight. The longer you can keep moving around in your opponents backfield, the longer you are preventing their archers from being effective.
The above tactics would be applicable to an open field battle where a flank is accessable or to some woods battles. (It also emulates the ancient Greek tactic of utilizing Ekdomoi, {runners-out}, fast, unarmoured Hoplites who would break out of a spear and shield formation to run down and kill harassing Peltasts. They had the same problem but couldn't change the rules by fiat.)
For bridge battles, about the only thing I've seen to affect archers short of breaking through the bridge is counter-battery with either you own archers or artillery. These tend to be attrition battles so staying alive is important. One thing that can make it a little easier for every one else is if some of your crossbowmen have pavises, put them right up against the river edge near the bridge. This will make them a target for just about every archer on the other side and will reduce the number of arrows sent against the rest of your side.
Castle/fortification battles are too dependant on the individual design, TRPs, and terrain to give consistant advice. Some are properly designed and allow a small force to succesfully defend against and defeat a larger force, (restricted fronts, overlapping kill zones, well-protected against missiles) others are big deathtraps for the defenders (think of the walled orchard the Athenians took "refuge" in when retreating from Syracuse.) All I can say is study the opposing side. Where do they put their archers? Where can they shoot? Where can't they shoot? What are they defending? Keep in mind that corners, (and towers in corners), are very often weak points. The archers in corner towers may very well have a wide field of fire. It also means that they can be shot at from several sides. Needless to say, shields and pavises are very important. Another thing to remember, you don't necessarily have to kill the opposing archers to make them ineffective. If your own archers can get the upper hand on them, they can keep them supressed. If every time someone raises their head or bow to shoot and attracts 5+ arrows immediately, they are eventually not going to shoot too much. This makes your pikemen much happier.
The above is based on about 15 years of An Tirian and Western war fighting. Your milage will obviously vary in other kingdoms, (perhaps not Lochac). Still, the basics of using manuver and your own archers to reduce the effectiveness of opposing archers should still apply.
Ivar Hakonarson
As Wulfe said, use a small force of lightly armoured, fast moving flankers to get into the opponents backfield and scatter and/or kill the opposing archers. Even if you do not kill them all, you will reduce their effectiveness through being an immediate distraction.
A few caveats for flankers:
1. Make sure your flankers have shields! Narrow kites work pretty well for this purpose. You don't want a particularly broad shield to block your vision. Flankers need to a more archer-like perception of the battlefield. Their threats and oppotunities are much broader and deeper than line fighting.
2. Add a couple of your own archers (by preference not crossbows) to your flanking party. They give your flankers a better chance against spearmen who may be defending the opposing archers. Also the opposing archers will tend not be looking for arrows coming in from their flank. Besides killing a couple, your friendly flanking archers can disorient the opposing archers and allow your swordsmen to close with them with less chance of taking fire.
3. Do not fixate on chasing one particular archer or group of archers. (Unless of course you have been tasked with eliminating a particularly dangerous archer). The danger of getting into a chase is that the archers you don't chase can end up chasing you, or if the group you are chasing is large enough, they can split up and present you with the dilemma of either splitting up or ignoring the group that split off. If the opposing archers have any training as a group, they'll be using horse archer tactics. Don't get suckered.
4. Think light cavalry tactics. Keep moving. Don't get bogged down in a stand up fight. The longer you can keep moving around in your opponents backfield, the longer you are preventing their archers from being effective.
The above tactics would be applicable to an open field battle where a flank is accessable or to some woods battles. (It also emulates the ancient Greek tactic of utilizing Ekdomoi, {runners-out}, fast, unarmoured Hoplites who would break out of a spear and shield formation to run down and kill harassing Peltasts. They had the same problem but couldn't change the rules by fiat.)
For bridge battles, about the only thing I've seen to affect archers short of breaking through the bridge is counter-battery with either you own archers or artillery. These tend to be attrition battles so staying alive is important. One thing that can make it a little easier for every one else is if some of your crossbowmen have pavises, put them right up against the river edge near the bridge. This will make them a target for just about every archer on the other side and will reduce the number of arrows sent against the rest of your side.
Castle/fortification battles are too dependant on the individual design, TRPs, and terrain to give consistant advice. Some are properly designed and allow a small force to succesfully defend against and defeat a larger force, (restricted fronts, overlapping kill zones, well-protected against missiles) others are big deathtraps for the defenders (think of the walled orchard the Athenians took "refuge" in when retreating from Syracuse.) All I can say is study the opposing side. Where do they put their archers? Where can they shoot? Where can't they shoot? What are they defending? Keep in mind that corners, (and towers in corners), are very often weak points. The archers in corner towers may very well have a wide field of fire. It also means that they can be shot at from several sides. Needless to say, shields and pavises are very important. Another thing to remember, you don't necessarily have to kill the opposing archers to make them ineffective. If your own archers can get the upper hand on them, they can keep them supressed. If every time someone raises their head or bow to shoot and attracts 5+ arrows immediately, they are eventually not going to shoot too much. This makes your pikemen much happier.
The above is based on about 15 years of An Tirian and Western war fighting. Your milage will obviously vary in other kingdoms, (perhaps not Lochac). Still, the basics of using manuver and your own archers to reduce the effectiveness of opposing archers should still apply.
Ivar Hakonarson
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James of York
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bela of kaffa
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wonderfully solid advice!
people target the obvious threats; if you're taking a sunday stroll through the melee, people tend to overlook you!
b
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vitus:
Calmly walk through opposing lines- never run. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
people target the obvious threats; if you're taking a sunday stroll through the melee, people tend to overlook you!
b
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vitus:
Calmly walk through opposing lines- never run. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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mattmaus
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vitus:
<B>Calmly walk through opposing lines- never run. If you run, they will notice and club you to pieces.
Walk up to archer- stab them with dagger.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you recomend whistling innocently while you do this?
<B>Calmly walk through opposing lines- never run. If you run, they will notice and club you to pieces.
Walk up to archer- stab them with dagger.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you recomend whistling innocently while you do this?
Some of the ideas that have been mentioned are good, but they don't prepare you for the melee field. If I got a unit for light cavalry work, I would want them to know their jobs before we even got into armor.
I think that it would be ideal to train with a group of combat archers. However, that might be a bit of a logistical problem.
Another training aid might be a tennis machine. I'm from An Tir, and we have the dreaded tennis-ball crossbow firing at us. Perhaps such a thing might be used to get us used to blocking with our shields more proactively.
Thank you all for the good advice thus far.
Gao Li
I think that it would be ideal to train with a group of combat archers. However, that might be a bit of a logistical problem.
Another training aid might be a tennis machine. I'm from An Tir, and we have the dreaded tennis-ball crossbow firing at us. Perhaps such a thing might be used to get us used to blocking with our shields more proactively.
Thank you all for the good advice thus far.
Gao Li
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InsaneIrish
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MichaelAAF
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Otto von Aachen
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Get rid of your spear and pick up a shield. I'm a (part-time) combat archer, and our order of targets is generally: 12 foot spears, enemy archers, enemy commanders, polearms/greatswords, florentines and at the very bottom of the list are folks with shields. Any semi competent shield user can block arrows all day long, so most archers wont waste an arrow on them. Just make sure you keep your shield up fairly high and stay alert and you wont have any trouble.
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Bruce S.
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Bruce S.
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Otto von Aachen
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by James of York:
<B>In addition to the above mentioned, have your front line constanly yelling reports of where they are,which ones are loading, if they are moving, etc. This will allow your unit to know where the imminent danger is coming from and also keep them aware of the flying arrows.
James of York</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While what you suggest is good advice, be aware that smart CA's go out of our way to avoid being noticed. I typically roam around right behind the front line with my bow down out of sight until im ready to shoot, at which time ill step up, tell the guy in front of me to duck, draw and release my shot and then immediately step back behind the lines and move to a new location before firing again. I also rarely target the people that are more or less directly in front of me. I'm much more likely to aim at the spearman 8 fighters down the line and go for an oblique shot into their bargrill then shoot at the guy right in front of me thats going to see the arrow coming and try to dodge. And just to keep people from getting too used to equating my armour with an archer, i trade off weapons between battles(and sometimes during battles), so that even if you recognize me you won't know for sure how im armed until i step onto the front line.
Like i said in my post above- if you dont want to be bothered by archers, carry a shield.
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Bruce S.
<B>In addition to the above mentioned, have your front line constanly yelling reports of where they are,which ones are loading, if they are moving, etc. This will allow your unit to know where the imminent danger is coming from and also keep them aware of the flying arrows.
James of York</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While what you suggest is good advice, be aware that smart CA's go out of our way to avoid being noticed. I typically roam around right behind the front line with my bow down out of sight until im ready to shoot, at which time ill step up, tell the guy in front of me to duck, draw and release my shot and then immediately step back behind the lines and move to a new location before firing again. I also rarely target the people that are more or less directly in front of me. I'm much more likely to aim at the spearman 8 fighters down the line and go for an oblique shot into their bargrill then shoot at the guy right in front of me thats going to see the arrow coming and try to dodge. And just to keep people from getting too used to equating my armour with an archer, i trade off weapons between battles(and sometimes during battles), so that even if you recognize me you won't know for sure how im armed until i step onto the front line.
Like i said in my post above- if you dont want to be bothered by archers, carry a shield.
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Bruce S.
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Raibeart Lok De la Haye
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vitus:
<B>Calmly walk through opposing lines- never run. If you run, they will notice and club you to pieces.
Walk up to archer- stab them with dagger.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I followed Vitus in sortie at last Gulf Wars, and we knocked out about 9 archers in one minute with the above.
<B>Calmly walk through opposing lines- never run. If you run, they will notice and club you to pieces.
Walk up to archer- stab them with dagger.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I followed Vitus in sortie at last Gulf Wars, and we knocked out about 9 archers in one minute with the above.
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FrauHirsch
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gao Li:
While we don't have heavy horse to go chase archers and their ilk down, what can we do as heavy fighters to reduce their effectiveness?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Use the buddy system, point out to each other where the archers are. Commanders should be calling out - "Archer to the left.", "Archer in Tower." etc. A lot of times this doesn't happen.
If you are a shield, use some sense and stop LOOKING over the shield. Keep it high. Put big shields in front. Especially when you are not engaged.
If you are a spear, stand behind the shields. Too many just HAVE to go look and stand in front of the shields or off to the side. Especially when not engaged. I always stand behind someone with a big shield. Also when waiting for engagement, with a spear, I hold the spear virtically directly in front of my face grill and put my guantlets up over part of my face. This allows a faster reaction to block arrows or bolts with the spear haft. And if they hit your guantlets... oh well..
90% of the casualties are people waiting to engage, standing as nice still targets. Don't be a target.
Juliana
[This message has been edited by FrauHirsch (edited 08-16-2003).]
While we don't have heavy horse to go chase archers and their ilk down, what can we do as heavy fighters to reduce their effectiveness?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Use the buddy system, point out to each other where the archers are. Commanders should be calling out - "Archer to the left.", "Archer in Tower." etc. A lot of times this doesn't happen.
If you are a shield, use some sense and stop LOOKING over the shield. Keep it high. Put big shields in front. Especially when you are not engaged.
If you are a spear, stand behind the shields. Too many just HAVE to go look and stand in front of the shields or off to the side. Especially when not engaged. I always stand behind someone with a big shield. Also when waiting for engagement, with a spear, I hold the spear virtically directly in front of my face grill and put my guantlets up over part of my face. This allows a faster reaction to block arrows or bolts with the spear haft. And if they hit your guantlets... oh well..
90% of the casualties are people waiting to engage, standing as nice still targets. Don't be a target.
Juliana
[This message has been edited by FrauHirsch (edited 08-16-2003).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FrauHirsch:
<B> 90% of the casualties are people waiting to engage, standing as nice still targets. Don't be a target.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are so right!
Just from watching wars, I've seen this pattern.
1. Archer paces back and forth (as not to be a stationary target) 20 feet behind the shield wall.
2. Great sword or polearm fighter runs in from resurrection point, either performing the standard broken field running to avoid the arrow, or running straight toward the shield wall.
3. The archer nochs an arrow, and waits.
4. About 20-40 feet before the shield wall, the greatsword or polearm fighter stops, flat footed, and scans the crowd in the shield wall in front of him to find a good spot. His weapon is at rest.
5. The archer draws, aims…
6. The greatsword or polearm fighter finally finds out where he wants to go, and brings up his weapon to the guard position before engaging into the line…
7. The archer fires…
8. The greatsword or polearm fighter gets an arrow in the grill, after staying perfectly still with his weapon down for nearly a full minute.
At the Great Western War this happened again, and again and again. I saw one archer shoot ten in a row using this method.
A moving target is difficult to line up on, especially if they use a jagged pattern of running.
A stationary target is an archers dream.
My advice (having only encountered archers once on the field) is scanning the line and thinking out your plan while running in a jagged pattern with unpredictable changes in direction, finalized with a diagonal insertion into the line or flanking around to get the archers.
NEVER be stationary….think while moving in a random pattern.
I've only had 6 "kills" in the only war I've been in.
One was a truly exhausted knight who was about to pass out completely (2 hours straight of non-stop engagements, no resurrection point yet)…my six year old son could have taken him…
The other five were archers from doing jagged pattern running.
-Aaron
<B> 90% of the casualties are people waiting to engage, standing as nice still targets. Don't be a target.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are so right!
Just from watching wars, I've seen this pattern.
1. Archer paces back and forth (as not to be a stationary target) 20 feet behind the shield wall.
2. Great sword or polearm fighter runs in from resurrection point, either performing the standard broken field running to avoid the arrow, or running straight toward the shield wall.
3. The archer nochs an arrow, and waits.
4. About 20-40 feet before the shield wall, the greatsword or polearm fighter stops, flat footed, and scans the crowd in the shield wall in front of him to find a good spot. His weapon is at rest.
5. The archer draws, aims…
6. The greatsword or polearm fighter finally finds out where he wants to go, and brings up his weapon to the guard position before engaging into the line…
7. The archer fires…
8. The greatsword or polearm fighter gets an arrow in the grill, after staying perfectly still with his weapon down for nearly a full minute.
At the Great Western War this happened again, and again and again. I saw one archer shoot ten in a row using this method.
A moving target is difficult to line up on, especially if they use a jagged pattern of running.
A stationary target is an archers dream.
My advice (having only encountered archers once on the field) is scanning the line and thinking out your plan while running in a jagged pattern with unpredictable changes in direction, finalized with a diagonal insertion into the line or flanking around to get the archers.
NEVER be stationary….think while moving in a random pattern.
I've only had 6 "kills" in the only war I've been in.
One was a truly exhausted knight who was about to pass out completely (2 hours straight of non-stop engagements, no resurrection point yet)…my six year old son could have taken him…
The other five were archers from doing jagged pattern running.
-Aaron