The Armour Archive

Count Johnathan wrote:So Logan what do you where on your arm when fighting? Long sleeve shirt? Padding of any kind? Just an elbow cop with pad?

Virtue!

Running away from the duke and the count,

-Aaron

i know, for a fact, atlantia doesnt own a lawyer. when a scumbag had his hack lawyer write me a letter threatening me (as king) for heading an investigation on his behavior i was told very clearly "do not respond to this lawyer, any and all communication will be handled with the scas legal council". so, i suspect, that a corporation based in one town would have its legal council centered in that town.

regards
logan

raito wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:Kingdom lawyer????

WTF? Never heard of such a thing.

But you're apparently qualified to speak about it.

dukelogan wrote:i know, for a fact, atlantia doesnt own a lawyer. when a scumbag had his hack lawyer write me a letter threatening me (as king) for heading an investigation on his behavior i was told very clearly "do not respond to this lawyer, any and all communication will be handled with the scas legal council". so, i suspect, that a corporation based in one town would have its legal council centered in that town.

Rather makes you wonder how the multiplicity of SCA, Inc.'s are going to handle that part of things, doesn't it?

Balin50 wrote:

Maeryk wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:And the outcome of said suit was.....?

And which Kingdoms lawyer handled the case?

You can make up any nonsense to bring a lawsuit against any party. It doesn't prevent a judge from laughing in your face and tossing your idiotic case into the circular file.

As you said, Kingdoms don't have lawyers. THe BOD (via SCA, Inc) does have lawyers.

Simply put, Society Minimums are what the SCA, Inc has deemed "reasonably safe" for the purposes of combat, vis-a-vis the SCA waiver.

If someone requires a higher coverage than that, it's proof, basically, that they are intentionally being more damaging than "sca minimum" will protect from.

Like I said, believe it or don't, that's your choice. Get your own fucking legal secretary and do some digging.

not my job to make you happy.

Not all Kingdoms are Soc. Mins. Atenveldt has extra rules. heck Pennsic has extra rules over Soc mins.
You are a Liar.

Balin

Yes, anyone disagreeing with your worldview must be lying.

dukelogan wrote:i only wear a professional hockey elbow under the sleeve of my tabard which is two layers of cotten "sport cloth". of course now i am forced to change that as my new kingdom requires a vambrace. so i have tofigure something out that is tiny and will not ride up into my wrist.

ive considered shoulders as i know all about the cursing when taking a really hard shot right on the point. just too lazy to do aything about it.

regards
logan

Point the vambrace to your elbow pad and wrap your forearm with a strip of cloth a couple of times (the wrap doesn't even need fasteners). When the vambrace is pointed in the right place, plus the wrap to prevent metal or strap chaffing, you won't ever notice it.

Raeven wrote:

dukelogan wrote:i only wear a professional hockey elbow under the sleeve of my tabard which is two layers of cotten "sport cloth". of course now i am forced to change that as my new kingdom requires a vambrace. so i have tofigure something out that is tiny and will not ride up into my wrist.

ive considered shoulders as i know all about the cursing when taking a really hard shot right on the point. just too lazy to do aything about it.

regards
logan

Point the vambrace to your elbow pad and wrap your forearm with a strip of cloth a couple of times (the wrap doesn't even need fasteners). When the vambrace is pointed in the right place, plus the wrap to prevent metal or strap chaffing, you won't ever notice it.

Good advice. Also, make a 3" or so wide soft leather strap inside the vambrace and pull it down snug at the wrist.

sure. of course i wouldnt even notice it if i wasnt forced to wear something that after 20 years of fighting ive never needed nor is required on a societal level just because somebody here heard that four folks had their arms broken (not sure if that is actually confirmed or not) while wearing vambraces. its just dumb to require something that has such a long and clear history of not being needed.

i think that if i can fudge something super light and attach it to my elbow it might work. are you suggesting wrapping something around my wrist to prevent chaffing or wrapping it around the silly vambrace? i guess either would work if i cant figure out something that will not interfere with my wrist movement.

regards
logan

Raeven wrote:

dukelogan wrote:i only wear a professional hockey elbow under the sleeve of my tabard which is two layers of cotten "sport cloth". of course now i am forced to change that as my new kingdom requires a vambrace. so i have tofigure something out that is tiny and will not ride up into my wrist.

ive considered shoulders as i know all about the cursing when taking a really hard shot right on the point. just too lazy to do aything about it.

regards
logan

Point the vambrace to your elbow pad and wrap your forearm with a strip of cloth a couple of times (the wrap doesn't even need fasteners). When the vambrace is pointed in the right place, plus the wrap to prevent metal or strap chaffing, you won't ever notice it.

raito wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:Kingdom lawyer????

WTF? Never heard of such a thing.

But you're apparently qualified to speak about it.

Yeah never heard of one because it's not a position that kingdoms hire someone to do. SCA legal matters are dealt with by the SCA Inc. legal team.

Show me the list of these Kingdoms lawyers that exist.

Er, Johno...you were the first one that said anything about kingdoms having lawyers.

Maeryk just said that "Der Lawyers" advised kingdoms going to Society minimums. I just read that as him meaning the SCA's lawyers, and the grand council.

dukelogan wrote:i think that if i can fudge something super light and attach it to my elbow it might work. are you suggesting wrapping something around my wrist to prevent chaffing or wrapping it around the silly vambrace? i guess either would work if i cant figure out something that will not interfere with my wrist movement....

YG,

For whatever it may help, I wear a set of these, made by Duke Maelgwn.
http://strawberryfieldsarmory.com/armprotection.html
[img]http://strawberryfieldsarmory.com/images/susanvambracershelmcups_021.jpg[/img]
They are leather with an aluminum elbow cop and a splint of aluminum in the front. Actually, I only wear the right one, as I fight mostly sword and shield.

If the leather of the vanbrace is cut to the correct length for your arm (easy to adjust with a cutter), and the straps are properly pointed, it virtually feels as if it were not there and it does not chafe at all. Super light and completely unobtrusive.

Respectfully,

Glaukos the Athenian

Count Johnathan wrote:

raito wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:Kingdom lawyer????

WTF? Never heard of such a thing.

But you're apparently qualified to speak about it.

Yeah never heard of one because it's not a position that kingdoms hire someone to do. SCA legal matters are dealt with by the SCA Inc. legal team.

Show me the list of these Kingdoms lawyers that exist.

Point 1. I claim no knowledge of other Kingdoms.

Point 2. Pro bono is not the same as hiring. And just because there's nothing on the org chart does not mean that there's no one who's supposed to do the job.

Point 3. Read carefully. 'Acted' has a specific meaning. In this case, we had him for a particular incident, as was needed at the time. I never said that there was one on anything resembling a permanent retainer.

Count Johnathan wrote:

raito wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:Kingdom lawyer????

WTF? Never heard of such a thing.

But you're apparently qualified to speak about it.

Yeah never heard of one because it's not a position that kingdoms hire someone to do. SCA legal matters are dealt with by the SCA Inc. legal team.

Show me the list of these Kingdoms lawyers that exist.

Point 1. I claim no knowledge of other Kingdoms in this matter.

Point 2. Pro bono is not the same as hiring. And just because there's nothing on the org chart does not mean that there's no one who's supposed to do the job.

Point 3. Read carefully. 'Acted' has a specific meaning. In this case, we had him for a particular incident, as was needed at the time. I never said that there was one on anything resembling a permanent retainer.

dukelogan wrote:sure. of course i wouldnt even notice it if i wasnt forced to wear something that after 20 years of fighting ive never needed nor is required on a societal level just because somebody here heard that four folks had their arms broken (not sure if that is actually confirmed or not) while wearing vambraces. its just dumb to require something that has such a long and clear history of not being needed.

i think that if i can fudge something super light and attach it to my elbow it might work. are you suggesting wrapping something around my wrist to prevent chaffing or wrapping it around the silly vambrace? i guess either would work if i cant figure out something that will not interfere with my wrist movement.

regards
logan

While we may not like all the rules, they are still the rules we have to play by. You're influential enough you can get in the position to have those rules changed.

The wrap should be around your forearm, underneath whatever you use as a vambrace. With the vambrace pointed to your elbow, the end of it should not come closer than one inch from the bone that sticks out near the wrist. You should also be able to get at least a finger under the vambrace near your wrist. If it is cinched up tight at your wrist, it's a bad design or too small for your arm. The strap that cinches up around the forearm should be snug and fit though.

Saritor wrote:Er, Johno...you were the first one that said anything about kingdoms having lawyers.

Maeryk just said that "Der Lawyers" advised kingdoms going to Society minimums. I just read that as him meaning the SCA's lawyers, and the grand council.

Oh really? You must have missed this.

Count Johnathan wrote:

Kingdoms don't have lawyers dude.

raito wrote : Demostrably false. In Northshield, the former SCa President, Patrick Anderson, filled that function prior to becoming President....

raito wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:

raito wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:Kingdom lawyer????

WTF? Never heard of such a thing.

But you're apparently qualified to speak about it.

Yeah never heard of one because it's not a position that kingdoms hire someone to do. SCA legal matters are dealt with by the SCA Inc. legal team.

Show me the list of these Kingdoms lawyers that exist.

Point 1. I claim no knowledge of other Kingdoms in this matter.

Point 2. Pro bono is not the same as hiring. And just because there's nothing on the org chart does not mean that there's no one who's supposed to do the job.

Point 3. Read carefully. 'Acted' has a specific meaning. In this case, we had him for a particular incident, as was needed at the time. I never said that there was one on anything resembling a permanent retainer.

I see. You know what that means?

It means Kingdoms don't have lawyers.

East Kingdom had a position at the kingdom level, "Chancellor", which was the Kingdom's attorney.

Master Lawrence Thorneguard filled the office for a number of years.

The position has been abolished, but the fact is that it did exist.

Someone please illuminate my ignorance:

I know the SCA, Inc. is a corporate legal person, and therefore can be party to legal proceedings.

Are kingdoms legally recognized entities, (e.g. Kingdom of the East, Inc.) on their own or they exist legally under the corporate aegis of the Society?

I was under the impression that all kingdoms fall under the legal person of the SCA, inc. and therefore they cannot sue or be sued individually, but as part of the society (or individuals in a kingdom may be named in a suit against the SCA) . Therefore the only "person" getting representation in case of legal action is the Society not the kingdom.

An attorney may provide advise to an individual, but I am not sure about separate legal representation for a kingdom. Is this correct?

Anyone?

Glaukos the Athenian

Kilkenny wrote:East Kingdom had a position at the kingdom level, "Chancellor", which was the Kingdom's attorney.

Master Lawrence Thorneguard filled the office for a number of years.

The position has been abolished, but the fact is that it did exist.

Now see that is interesting. When was that? Why did they have it? It's not something that exists today that I know of but interesting that any kingdoms ever did have such a position. Do you know why the position was eliminated?

Did they pay him or was it just a voluntary position?

Glaukos the Athenian wrote:Someone please illuminate my ignorance:

I know the SCA, Inc. is a corporate legal person, and therefore can be party to legal proceedings.

Are kingdoms legally recognized entities, (e.g. Kingdom of the East, Inc.) on their own or they exist legally under the corporate aegis of the Society?

I was under the impression that all kingdoms fall under the legal person of the SCA, inc. and therefore they cannot sue or be sued individually, but as part of the society (or individuals in a kingdom may be named in a suit against the SCA) . Therefore the only "person" getting representation in case of legal action is the Society not the kingdom.

An attorney may provide advise to an individual, but I am not sure about separate legal representation for a kingdom. Is this correct?

Anyone?

Glaukos the Athenian

That is currently how I understand it to be as well.

I believe that a lawyer may offer or be asked for advice from anyone, corporate entity or Kingdom, or person.
If sued, the SCA would have a lawfirm handle the case.

I know of Kingdoms who had a lawyer offer them advice on a consistent basis.
A "rear guard" it was called.

Count Johnathan wrote:

Glaukos the Athenian wrote:Someone please illuminate my ignorance:

I know the SCA, Inc. is a corporate legal person, and therefore can be party to legal proceedings.

Are kingdoms legally recognized entities, (e.g. Kingdom of the East, Inc.) on their own or they exist legally under the corporate aegis of the Society?

I was under the impression that all kingdoms fall under the legal person of the SCA, inc. and therefore they cannot sue or be sued individually, but as part of the society (or individuals in a kingdom may be named in a suit against the SCA) . Therefore the only "person" getting representation in case of legal action is the Society not the kingdom.

An attorney may provide advise to an individual, but I am not sure about separate legal representation for a kingdom. Is this correct?

Anyone?

Glaukos the Athenian

That is currently how I understand it to be as well.

Count Johnathan wrote:I see. You know what that means?

It means Kingdoms don't have lawyers.

Whether any Kingdom currently has a lawyer, I couldn't say. But as I did say, I know of a Kingdom that had one in the past. So does Kilkenny. So does Omarad.

Count Johnathan wrote:

Saritor wrote:Er, Johno...you were the first one that said anything about kingdoms having lawyers.

Maeryk just said that "Der Lawyers" advised kingdoms going to Society minimums. I just read that as him meaning the SCA's lawyers, and the grand council.

Oh really? You must have missed this.

Count Johnathan wrote:

Kingdoms don't have lawyers dude.

raito wrote : Demostrably false. In Northshield, the former SCa President, Patrick Anderson, filled that function prior to becoming President....

Didn't miss it. Re-read my first sentence.

Went back and checked chronology.

You're still the first person to make mention of it, and then Raito mentions Gabriel's time doing pro bono work for Northshield about half a dozen posts later.

About number 2 - the bruising part. I've still seemed to get bruises through armor - so I'm guessing my armor isn't quite what it should be.

I've had to be removed from the site once. I tore my ACL in half and cracked the meniscus on my left knee while I was fighting my mentor Knight. I fell like a sack of taters and they were trying to get my leg armor off and I keep saying, "don't cut it!". It was so painful.

Glaukos the Athenian wrote:Someone please illuminate my ignorance:

I know the SCA, Inc. is a corporate legal person, and therefore can be party to legal proceedings.

Are kingdoms legally recognized entities, (e.g. Kingdom of the East, Inc.) on their own or they exist legally under the corporate aegis of the Society?

I was under the impression that all kingdoms fall under the legal person of the SCA, inc. and therefore they cannot sue or be sued individually, but as part of the society (or individuals in a kingdom may be named in a suit against the SCA) . Therefore the only "person" getting representation in case of legal action is the Society not the kingdom.

An attorney may provide advise to an individual, but I am not sure about separate legal representation for a kingdom. Is this correct?

Anyone?

Glaukos the Athenian

Actually, this is currently undergoing a very substantial revision. The SCA is incorporating subsidiaries state by state, taking effect in 2011.
The "Kingdom of X" may not be a corporate entity, but there may be the potential to name "SCA, Inc. of (list states involved)" and effectively tag a kingdom.

We shall have to see how this one plays out. My understanding is that the primary purpose relates to filing tax returns.

Kilkenny wrote:We shall have to see how this one plays out. My understanding is that the primary purpose relates to filing tax returns.

My understanding is a little different. Mine is that it relates to regulation of non-profits having to do with auditing (which is not directly about tax filings). In Wisconsin, apparently, the entire corproation needs to be audited regularly. I seem to recall that by cutting Wisconsin off from the rest of the SCA, not only would the auditing cost be less, but that the Wisconsin portion is small enough to not fall under the same regulations. I believe that the situation was similar in Illinois.

Logan,

Get a couple of these slash guards:

http://warrior.com/hockey/gear/accessor ... ash+Guards

They have plastic in them, and are made to work in conjunction with your hockey elbows to cover the area of the forearm in question. They should pass the letter of the law and not impede your fighting at all.

g-

I misread the first post - I would pick death and include loss of limbs or extreme serious injuries.

I have the expectations when I armor up that I could end up with bruises or possibly a broken bone. I hope that someone isn't going to hit so hard as to break something, but that's not always the case. And I have to work harder to learn to defend myself against those that do those smash you up hits. I understand it's my responsibility to get my armor to the standards where I'm not going to get hurt (things to happen though). And bruises are kinda cool.

not long enough. the rule is:

2. In Trimaris, protection for the outside edge (the ulna) of the foreman is required and must be made of rigid material. It must extend from the wrist to the elbow.

not that ive seen anyone with armour that actually meets this rule as most vambraces stop some distance from the wrist. my guess is that the cuff of my glove, which does cover my wrist, would count for that. however that leaves about 9" of forearm between it and my hockey elbow.

i will figure something out and run it by some marshals to make sure im in compliance. so long as i dont run into one that tries to change the definition of "rigid" of course.

regards
logan

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:Logan,

Get a couple of these slash guards:

http://warrior.com/hockey/gear/accessor ... ash+Guards

They have plastic in them, and are made to work in conjunction with your hockey elbows to cover the area of the forearm in question. They should pass the letter of the law and not impede your fighting at all.

g-

I think a lot of the "new" forearm and hand fractures we are seeing are due to hi-res x-ray machines. But I am not an orthopedist. I think that a lot of what we used to call "nasty bone bruise" are actually small fractures.

That being said, I don't think vambraces should be required. I think you are either crazy, a masochist, or "Wolverine", if you don't (although I suppose maybe you never get hit there).

This is mine - it goes to my wrist - all leather.



It looks really short but my forearm isn't that long, it's 10" from elbow to wrist. And my gauntlet covers over for extra protection. It's worked really well, shots taken fine.

I like the ones Glaukos posted though.

raito wrote:

Kilkenny wrote:We shall have to see how this one plays out. My understanding is that the primary purpose relates to filing tax returns.

My understanding is a little different. Mine is that it relates to regulation of non-profits having to do with auditing (which is not directly about tax filings). In Wisconsin, apparently, the entire corproation needs to be audited regularly. I seem to recall that by cutting Wisconsin off from the rest of the SCA, not only would the auditing cost be less, but that the Wisconsin portion is small enough to not fall under the same regulations. I believe that the situation was similar in Illinois.

I would yield to that refined understanding

dukelogan wrote:not long enough. the rule is:

2. In Trimaris, protection for the outside edge (the ulna) of the foreman is required and must be made of rigid material. It must extend from the wrist to the elbow.

not that ive seen anyone with armour that actually meets this rule as most vambraces stop some distance from the wrist. my guess is that the cuff of my glove, which does cover my wrist, would count for that. however that leaves about 9" of forearm between it and my hockey elbow.

i will figure something out and run it by some marshals to make sure im in compliance. so long as i dont run into one that tries to change the definition of "rigid" of course.

regards
logan

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:Logan,

Get a couple of these slash guards:

http://warrior.com/hockey/gear/accessor ... ash+Guards

They have plastic in them, and are made to work in conjunction with your hockey elbows to cover the area of the forearm in question. They should pass the letter of the law and not impede your fighting at all.

g-

I thought your gear was something like these:

http://www.hockey1.com/products-result. ... useqs=true

When I had a pair of those, them plus the slash guards covered everything in question.

g-

I think the problem is the rigid material portion, Alaric.

Personally I'd go with a light leather vambrace with an aluminum or plastic splint. It won't actually offer all that much protection (just a skinny, small splint) but it will meet the letter of the law.

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:I think a lot of the "new" forearm and hand fractures we are seeing are due to hi-res x-ray machines. But I am not an orthopedist. I think that a lot of what we used to call "nasty bone bruise" are actually small fractures.

That being said, I don't think vambraces should be required. I think you are either crazy, a masochist, or "Wolverine", if you don't (although I suppose maybe you never get hit there).

I know that quite a few years ago Duke Vissevald had a hand(s?) x-ray. They asked him how long he had been playing hockey. When he explained that he did not play hockey, they asked about what he did, because hockey was the only place where they were used to seeing the kind of evidence of frequent fracture that his hands showed.

I don't doubt that an x-ray of my hands would likewise show evidence of a number of fractures that have never been diagnosed (or acknowledged) as such.

When I was 35 or so, I had to get a hand x-rayed. The doc said I'd busted a bone in it previously, and asked if I knew when I'd done it. I had to think back, but I'm pretty sure it got broken through hockey gloves back when I was 17-18.

The problem, which the docs never figured out, was that I had in my left hand a sort of RSI that usually happened to keyboard players in their right hands. Seems I was typing more than usual at the time, and I'd picked up the bad habit of shifting exclusively with my left hand. So I was tearing some small muscles. A small adjustment of technique and the problem went away.

To my knowledge, it's the only bone I've broken in any martial art.