The Armour Archive

Glaukos the Athenian wrote:I was wondering whether there is a discernible difference between minimal torso (i.e. Kidney belt and garb) Maille and kidney belt

Anecdotally, from my experience, adding mail is a significant upgrade in protection over just the kidney belt. I fought in a kidney belt over a thin gambeson with a tunic overall for years. When I added the mail shirt (welded Ti, belted) over this, I literally could not feel body shots. I no longer user the gambeson, just a tshirt under the belt. The mail was far more protective against our blunt force impacts than I ever expected.

I never thought the minimums were good protection for the new fighters; they basically cover up the hard to fix areas of the body (skull, upper spine, elbows, knees, wrists, hands, and groin).

If you feel you are good enough to not cover the rest it is on you; you know the dangers.

All I know is this, I am not worried about winning the game I am worried about work on Monday so I wear real armor.

Yeah, I never recommend minimums for new guys. They get hit too much. I'm on the close approach to 30 years of SCA fighting, I know what can happen, what works for me and what my body can take.

i dont think a physical defect that allows injury should be a reason to create more armour requirements. thats kinda like banning swimming pools because a quadruple amputee rolls himself off the diving board and drowns.

regards
logan

Angusm0628 wrote:Yes, as a matter of fact he is doing rehab right now and will be out of fighting until next year.
Now he was unaware of a shoulder issue he had regarding the tendons supporting his arm into the socket of his shoulder. For whatever reason the socket was too small to accept the ball portion of his arm. He had it dislocate a few times on him playing football, snowboarding etc. He attributed it to "doing stupid shit". The last time however which put him out of commission was a sword blow (single handed sword) that came down on him during a press in the field battle at Pennsic 38. It exascerbated (sp) the condition to developing a small tear in the tendons making his shoulder dislocate at the smallest blow to that area.
He had surgery early last year, but is doing the total rehab before he puts on armor again.
So yes, a blow did do injury. No it wasn't just the blow itself but it had help from a previously undiagnosed condition.

dukelogan wrote:im not aware of a single incident in which injury was done to a shoulder joint from the impact of a weapon. are you?

regards
logan

Raeven wrote:

Aaron wrote:Given no change in current calibration and weapon standards, what armour standard would get everyone (OK almost everyone...some people are born brittle) down to between #6 and # 7

I don't think the armor standards need to go to 6 or 7. The only change I would make to make the current standards safer and more consistent is to require shoulder protection also. The long bones heal pretty easily. Joints do not.

dukelogan wrote:i dont think a physical defect that allows injury should be a reason to create more armour requirements. thats kinda like banning swimming pools because a quadruple amputee rolls himself off the diving board and drowns.

regards
logan

As much as I am a fan of being well protected, I agree with HG Logan. We are all familiar with the minimal requirements, but it is up to each one of us to choose how much we wear above that and why.

I believe the armor requirements are satisfactory in that they will protect the largest number of fighters from the worst injuries that can be suffered in the majority of the cases. But this does not preclude people from wearing more if they so wish, though the choice is theirs.

There is a difference between a suggestion and a mandate.

Glaukos the Athenian

dukelogan wrote:im not aware of a single incident in which injury was done to a shoulder joint from the impact of a weapon. are you?

regards
logan

14 years ago I dislocated a guys shoulder with an overhand offside wrap. He rolled around on his face for a bit screaming and crying. It was disturbing to say the least. A couple of his buddies carted him off to get medical attention. It was fighter practice up in the woods in flagstaff. Very small area. It was never reported.

Edit: AND he was wearing heavy leather pauldrens. It was a freak incident. I don't think additional armor would have prevented it.

dukelogan wrote:i dont think a physical defect that allows injury should be a reason to create more armour requirements. thats kinda like banning swimming pools because a quadruple amputee rolls himself off the diving board and drowns.

regards
logan

Angusm0628 wrote:Yes, as a matter of fact he is doing rehab right now and will be out of fighting until next year.
Now he was unaware of a shoulder issue he had regarding the tendons supporting his arm into the socket of his shoulder. For whatever reason the socket was too small to accept the ball portion of his arm. He had it dislocate a few times on him playing football, snowboarding etc. He attributed it to "doing stupid shit". The last time however which put him out of commission was a sword blow (single handed sword) that came down on him during a press in the field battle at Pennsic 38. It exascerbated (sp) the condition to developing a small tear in the tendons making his shoulder dislocate at the smallest blow to that area.
He had surgery early last year, but is doing the total rehab before he puts on armor again.
So yes, a blow did do injury. No it wasn't just the blow itself but it had help from a previously undiagnosed condition.

dukelogan wrote:im not aware of a single incident in which injury was done to a shoulder joint from the impact of a weapon. are you?

regards
logan

Raeven wrote:

Aaron wrote:Given no change in current calibration and weapon standards, what armour standard would get everyone (OK almost everyone...some people are born brittle) down to between #6 and # 7

I don't think the armor standards need to go to 6 or 7. The only change I would make to make the current standards safer and more consistent is to require shoulder protection also. The long bones heal pretty easily. Joints do not.

IMO, and perhaps its just a mis-perception on my part, but in my 30 plus years of being involved in boxing, various MA's, football, power-lifting. SCA etc., I don't think I have been around a group that seems to make more of injuries than the SCA. I don't mean to make light of injuries involved in combat but it just seems the volume level is greater in the SCA. I could be wrong.

Entirely possible. We have a poor record of tracking them, so it's all anecdotal. But we also have some 10,000+ guys doing this. And have zero fitness requirement to start or participate. So pudgy computer geeks and trained athletes and martial arts guys can be all on the same field, and usually are. All things considered, I think we do pretty damn well.

calgofo wrote:IMO, and perhaps its just a mis-perception on my part, but in my 30 plus years of being involved in boxing, various MA's, football, power-lifting. SCA etc., I don't think I have been around a group that seems to make more of injuries than the SCA. I don't mean to make light of injuries involved in combat but it just seems the volume level is greater in the SCA. I could be wrong.

Perhaps the average participant in the other activities you mention are more focused on athletics and fitness/health than the average sca combatant.

If ALL highschool or college football teams did at practice was tackle drills, there would be more injuries. Instead, they run laps, lift weights, stretch... things which are not necessarily common parts of the average SCA practice. How much of boxing training is spent throwing punches and getting hit compared to stretches, weights, running, jumping rome, chasing chickens, etc? How many martial arts studios would takea new person off the street and have them sparing at half speed on the first night?

Now, on average, the SCA does a good job of addressing calibration to the local norm and basic technique at practices. I know from our own local practice that stretching as a group comes and goes, and cardio is rarely addressed except as an object lesson. Individual health and fitness is up to individuals in the SCA where its built into the culture of hs/college football, boxing, or MA.

True I suppose. Conditioning could well play a part.

so ive asked, for a long time, for evidence of how fragile some folks think the human body is. including, of course, examples of light pokes to the face that kill or arrows that hit folks and drop them with a single shot (even without armour). ive been gathering evidence to the contrary and was just forwarded this one: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pples.html

it proves nothing really but is another example that this thought of insta-death some people suggest isnt an automatic.

it will be added to the web site im putting together with arrows in the skull, face smashed in, etc.

regards
logan

dukelogan wrote:im not aware of a single incident in which injury was done to a shoulder joint from the impact of a weapon. are you?

Yes. Myself. When I was first starting to fight I was using loaner gear that didn't have shoulder protection. I got hit by a single handed sword, in a chop that landed right next to the shoulder socket. It wasn't an overly hard blow (thankfully), but I did not realize how serious it hurt me until layer when my shoulder would get irritated and inflamed from mild use. It wasn't serious enough to require immediate medical attention, but it took years to fully heal.

Like I said...bones heal fairly quickly. Joint damage can take time to fully realize, and repair almost always requires surgery, if it is repairable.

I'm having on again off again shoulder problems I think mostly from BLOCKING shots. I have always fought round shield center grip and this can put a lot of strain on the shoulder. This is cumulative though over time, and not really related to individual shots.

Upon further reflection, I would amend my statement.

I would add vambraces and shoulder protection to the current minimums....up until the fighter is authorized. After that, you could fight naked for all I care. New fighters should be required to armor up more until they can show they are capable and can follow the rules. For their own protection.

Raeven wrote:Upon further reflection, I would amend my statement.

I would add vambraces and shoulder protection to the current minimums....up until the fighter is authorized. After that, you could fight naked for all I care. New fighters should be required to armor up more until they can show they are capable and can follow the rules. For their own protection.

Ya know, there is some merit in this.

thats not joint damage, its soft tissue damage.

regards
logan

ps st damage sucks, i know. but thats not what i was asking.

Raeven wrote:

dukelogan wrote:im not aware of a single incident in which injury was done to a shoulder joint from the impact of a weapon. are you?

Yes. Myself. When I was first starting to fight I was using loaner gear that didn't have shoulder protection. I got hit by a single handed sword, in a chop that landed right next to the shoulder socket. It wasn't an overly hard blow (thankfully), but I did not realize how serious it hurt me until layer when my shoulder would get irritated and inflamed from mild use. It wasn't serious enough to require immediate medical attention, but it took years to fully heal.

Like I said...bones heal fairly quickly. Joint damage can take time to fully realize, and repair almost always requires surgery, if it is repairable.

unauthporized fighters should NEVER be taking shots at full power until the three weeks of practice just before they are ready to authorize.

at least in my opinion and based on the way i train new fighters.

regards
logan

Raeven wrote:Upon further reflection, I would amend my statement.

I would add vambraces and shoulder protection to the current minimums....up until the fighter is authorized. After that, you could fight naked for all I care. New fighters should be required to armor up more until they can show they are capable and can follow the rules. For their own protection.

dukelogan wrote:unauthporized fighters should NEVER be taking shots at full power until the three weeks of practice just before they are ready to authorize.

at least in my opinion and based on the way i train new fighters.

regards
logan

Not disagreeing, I just wish I could get that kind of commitment from new guys. The opportunity to hit is the only hook that consistently keeps them coming back.

dukelogan wrote:thats not joint damage, its soft tissue damage.

regards
logan

ps st damage sucks, i know. but thats not what i was asking.

Now you're just splitting hairs. If the soft tissue that is damaged is part of the joint, its joint damage, isn't it?

Anyway, this is just my opinion. I will recommend to anyone that asks me, they cover al all the hard points of the body with some sort of protection. I'm not in any way mandating a rule change, just giving my opinion on how I would change it.

not at all. the joint is comprised of the bones, connective tissue (like the labrum in the case of a shoulder), the little cusions between the bones (bursae). my question was simple, has a joint been damaged by a blow.

when you suggest "im not mandating a rule change, just giving my opinion on how I would change it" you suggest that if you were in charge you would force people t wear a certain piece of armour because you feel they should. this problem has raised its head too many times with those that have been in charge. the shield elbow rule is a great example of this as is the vambrace rule here in trimaris. neither really serve a purpose (hell, the four broken arms in trimaris were all "protected" by a vambrace) and both were instituted, by mandate, because someone with the authority to make rule change felt like doing it.

again, to bring things back into context, it was suggested that we should have a rule requiring the shoulder be armoured because bones heals and joints dont so well. so i asked if there has been an actual joint injury to the shoulder from a weapon blow. not at all splitting hairs.

im all for folks wearing as much armour as they wish. im all against someone telling folks what to wear just because they "think" its a good idea. clearly taking blows to unarmoured shoulders, for example, isnt a safety issue as we havent seen damage to that particular joint. having someone in power that just thinks its a bad idea not to wear armour over it is a terrible idea.

regards
logan

Raeven wrote:

dukelogan wrote:thats not joint damage, its soft tissue damage.

regards
logan

ps st damage sucks, i know. but thats not what i was asking.

Now you're just splitting hairs. If the soft tissue that is damaged is part of the joint, its joint damage, isn't it?

Anyway, this is just my opinion. I will recommend to anyone that asks me, they cover al all the hard points of the body with some sort of protection. I'm not in any way mandating a rule change, just giving my opinion on how I would change it.

dukelogan wrote:my question was simple, has a joint been damaged by a blow.

Maybe you missed my post.

14 years ago I dislocated a guys shoulder with an overhand offside wrap. He rolled around on his face for a bit screaming and crying. It was disturbing to say the least. A couple of his buddies carted him off to get medical attention. It was fighter practice up in the woods in flagstaff. Very small area. It was never reported.

Edit: AND he was wearing heavy leather pauldrens. It was a freak incident. I don't think additional armor would have prevented it.

I hit him and his shoulder blew up. I've hit thousands of fighters with that same shot, same power and many with no shoulder protection at all with no injuries but that one time...

Baron Eirik wrote:

dukelogan wrote:unauthporized fighters should NEVER be taking shots at full power until the three weeks of practice just before they are ready to authorize.

at least in my opinion and based on the way i train new fighters.

regards
logan

Not disagreeing, I just wish I could get that kind of commitment from new guys. The opportunity to hit is the only hook that consistently keeps them coming back.

I read HG's post as stating that the new guy would not RECIEVE full force shots until it was time to get ready for auth. thus limiting the possibility of injury due to not knowing how to move / block / parry at least a little. They could still swing with good force, but would be subjected to less of a pummeling.

In most of the trianing I've seen, there is some kind of 'intro calibration', to the helmet at least, along the lines of 'this is what light feels like, this is good, this is more than you need...' fairly early but all the other fighters give them a break on powe shots for a few months until they can get their defences coordinated. AKA the 'Don't be a dick' rule.

Is the original post stating that the new guy is not throwing normal force shots? If so, how does that prevent injury to the new guy?

dukelogan wrote:
when you suggest "im not mandating a rule change, just giving my opinion on how I would change it" you suggest that if you were in charge you would force people t wear a certain piece of armour because you feel they should. this problem has raised its head too many times with those that have been in charge. the shield elbow rule is a great example of this as is the vambrace rule here in trimaris. neither really serve a purpose (hell, the four broken arms in trimaris were all "protected" by a vambrace) and both were instituted, by mandate, because someone with the authority to make rule change felt like doing it.

again, to bring things back into context, it was suggested that we should have a rule requiring the shoulder be armoured because bones heals and joints dont so well. so i asked if there has been an actual joint injury to the shoulder from a weapon blow. not at all splitting hairs.

Two points. My comment was in direct response to Aarons post where he requested suggestions for how minimums should be changed to make them safer. I gave my opinion.

After having taken a look at the build of the shoulder, I was hit at the end of the acromium from directly above. So either I damaged the bursa directly underneath (most likely in my opinion) or the rotator cuff itself. Soft tissue damage of the shoulder. If you still disagree that I suffered solder joint damage, there is nothing else I can say to change your mind so consider yourself unbeaten in yet another internet debate and the matter settled.

and i think you missed my point.

but you make it for me. you hit one guy, 14 years ago, with a shot to his ARMOURED shoulder and he cried. clearly, or it seems, armour causes injuries (broken forearms that are armoured again!! ).....

ok, so, you hit some cat 14 years ago and he cried and was in pain. was the joint damaged? what did his mri reveal?

beside the whole "this and that injury wasnt reported" which in your narrative seems to be a factual pain issue the whole "we all know most injuries are not reported" is such bullshit. if its not reported we actually dont know a damn thing. lets stop guessing that our safe sport is so dangerous and getting sucked in to the chicken little syndrome mentality!

anyway, back to you dude. yes, he was clearly in pain. poor guy, i do not think any of us ever want to see a brother in pain and i am sure it weighed on you as much as it has me any time ive cracked a dude just "right" and his weekend fun got altered in a bad way. im not making light of it, just trying to be funny is all.

but here is the thing that is actually relevant to my point. you say this happened once some decade and a half ago. then you state youve hit THOUSANDS of guys with the same shot since then with not a single repeat of the rolling around apparent injury (and it seems we dont know if it was an injury or just a guy with a low threshold. ive seen grown folk pass out 10 minutes into a tattoo and i fall asleep around 2 hours in. so we all react differently to pain).

surely you would not, should you become sem (which i would support so long asyou appoint me grand poo-bah of fightin'), that we all must wear shoulder armour because of this issue. the shield elbow rule, which is way weaker than this one since nobody has ever had an elbow injured behind a properly strapped shield which covers their elbow, would be a great example of a rule based on stupid.

i would argue that you have supplied perfectly acceptable evidence that you can, indeed, hit some cat upon his shoulder many times without fear of our little (i would callthem almost harmless in a real conflict) rattan clubs.

regards
logan

Count Johnathan wrote:

dukelogan wrote:my question was simple, has a joint been damaged by a blow.

Maybe you missed my post.

14 years ago I dislocated a guys shoulder with an overhand offside wrap. He rolled around on his face for a bit screaming and crying. It was disturbing to say the least. A couple of his buddies carted him off to get medical attention. It was fighter practice up in the woods in flagstaff. Very small area. It was never reported.

Edit: AND he was wearing heavy leather pauldrens. It was a freak incident. I don't think additional armor would have prevented it.

I hit him and his shoulder blew up. I've hit thousands of fighters with that same shot, same power and many with no shoulder protection at all with no injuries but that one time...

well i could explain to you how the bursae can be damaged and how it is unlikely that a single impact can do that. especially from a low powered impact such as those from our rattan sticks. i actually am pretty up to date on shoulder injuries and how they occur.

however, it is clear by your snide ass little comment about winning internet debates that you have little interest in open discourse and you clearly suffered an injury to your whatever. im really sorry that you feel the need to attempt little jab like that. talk with your ortho (if youve actually seen one or just go with your very well guessed.... errr.... educated opinion) and ask him how it works. i have, i learned a lot, then i studied it more, then i had surguries, then i went through years of rehab and relearning how to work with the most complicated joint in the human body.

just so i could win an internet debate........

Raeven wrote:

dukelogan wrote:
when you suggest "im not mandating a rule change, just giving my opinion on how I would change it" you suggest that if you were in charge you would force people t wear a certain piece of armour because you feel they should. this problem has raised its head too many times with those that have been in charge. the shield elbow rule is a great example of this as is the vambrace rule here in trimaris. neither really serve a purpose (hell, the four broken arms in trimaris were all "protected" by a vambrace) and both were instituted, by mandate, because someone with the authority to make rule change felt like doing it.

again, to bring things back into context, it was suggested that we should have a rule requiring the shoulder be armoured because bones heals and joints dont so well. so i asked if there has been an actual joint injury to the shoulder from a weapon blow. not at all splitting hairs.

Two points. My comment was in direct response to Aarons post where he requested suggestions for how minimums should be changed to make them safer. I gave my opinion.

After having taken a look at the build of the shoulder, I was hit at the end of the acromium from directly above. So either I damaged the bursa directly underneath (most likely in my opinion) or the rotator cuff itself. Soft tissue damage of the shoulder. If you still disagree that I suffered solder joint damage, there is nothing else I can say to change your mind so consider yourself unbeaten in yet another internet debate and the matter settled.

Hey I was just answering the basic question "has a joint been damaged by a blow" and the answer is yes. I got your point. I intended to make it obvious that it was a freak occurance AND through relatively heavy armor no less. I didn't like the elbow cop behind my strapped heater rule either. I never wore one (15 yrs) until they told me I had to. No I wouldn't make shoulder armor manditory based on my own experience. I've put them on and taken them off and put them back on again but mostly for aesthetic reasons. I've been hit god knows how many times without them and it sucks every time but not long lasting or severe enough to warrant that kind of change.

Man that guy screamed like he'd been run over by a truck! It was fubar and did require medical attention but it wasn't even a sanctioned practice I don't think which was why it was never reported.

If I were to do the SEM thing ever I think many folks would be surprised how little would actually change.

And yeah if I ever do try it and in the unlikely event I was found acceptable to do it you could be the grand poo-bah of fightin'

You would have to wear rigid protection on your forearms though and publicly defend my right to put my imperial mark on the game.

dukelogan wrote:and i think you missed my point.

but you make it for me. you hit one guy, 14 years ago, with a shot to his ARMOURED shoulder and he cried. clearly, or it seems, armour causes injuries (broken forearms that are armoured again!! ).....

ok, so, you hit some cat 14 years ago and he cried and was in pain. was the joint damaged? what did his mri reveal?

beside the whole "this and that injury wasnt reported" which in your narrative seems to be a factual pain issue the whole "we all know most injuries are not reported" is such bullshit. if its not reported we actually dont know a damn thing. lets stop guessing that our safe sport is so dangerous and getting sucked in to the chicken little syndrome mentality!

anyway, back to you dude. yes, he was clearly in pain. poor guy, i do not think any of us ever want to see a brother in pain and i am sure it weighed on you as much as it has me any time ive cracked a dude just "right" and his weekend fun got altered in a bad way. im not making light of it, just trying to be funny is all.

but here is the thing that is actually relevant to my point. you say this happened once some decade and a half ago. then you state youve hit THOUSANDS of guys with the same shot since then with not a single repeat of the rolling around apparent injury (and it seems we dont know if it was an injury or just a guy with a low threshold. ive seen grown folk pass out 10 minutes into a tattoo and i fall asleep around 2 hours in. so we all react differently to pain).

surely you would not, should you become sem (which i would support so long asyou appoint me grand poo-bah of fightin'), that we all must wear shoulder armour because of this issue. the shield elbow rule, which is way weaker than this one since nobody has ever had an elbow injured behind a properly strapped shield which covers their elbow, would be a great example of a rule based on stupid.

i would argue that you have supplied perfectly acceptable evidence that you can, indeed, hit some cat upon his shoulder many times without fear of our little (i would callthem almost harmless in a real conflict) rattan clubs.

regards
logan

Count Johnathan wrote:

dukelogan wrote:my question was simple, has a joint been damaged by a blow.

Maybe you missed my post.

14 years ago I dislocated a guys shoulder with an overhand offside wrap. He rolled around on his face for a bit screaming and crying. It was disturbing to say the least. A couple of his buddies carted him off to get medical attention. It was fighter practice up in the woods in flagstaff. Very small area. It was never reported.

Edit: AND he was wearing heavy leather pauldrens. It was a freak incident. I don't think additional armor would have prevented it.

I hit him and his shoulder blew up. I've hit thousands of fighters with that same shot, same power and many with no shoulder protection at all with no injuries but that one time...

imperial mark i can support..... armouring my forearms..... never needed it, never will, it should be my choice.

like they say, "no means no mister!!"

now if i could find some sort of forearm armour that didnt get in my way, didnt cause me pain in my wrist every singl time i threw a blow, and made any sense at all, i might consider it. not for long, but i might.

regards
logan

Count Johnathan wrote:Hey I was just answering the basic question "has a joint been damaged by a blow" and the answer is yes. I got your point. I intended to make it obvious that it was a freak occurance AND through relatively heavy armor no less. I didn't like the elbow cop behind my strapped heater rule either. I never wore one (15 yrs) until they told me I had to. No I wouldn't make shoulder armor manditory based on my own experience. I've put them on and taken them off and put them back on again but mostly for aesthetic reasons. I've been hit god knows how many times without them and it sucks every time but not long lasting or severe enough to warrant that kind of change.

Man that guy screamed like he'd been run over by a truck! It was fubar and did require medical attention but it wasn't even a sanctioned practice I don't think which was why it was never reported.

If I were to do the SEM thing ever I think many folks would be surprised how little would actually change.

And yeah if I ever do try it and in the unlikely event I was found acceptable to do it you could be the grand poo-bah of fightin'

You would have to wear rigid protection on your forearms though and publicly defend my right to put my imperial mark on the game.

dukelogan wrote:and i think you missed my point.

but you make it for me. you hit one guy, 14 years ago, with a shot to his ARMOURED shoulder and he cried. clearly, or it seems, armour causes injuries (broken forearms that are armoured again!! ).....

ok, so, you hit some cat 14 years ago and he cried and was in pain. was the joint damaged? what did his mri reveal?

beside the whole "this and that injury wasnt reported" which in your narrative seems to be a factual pain issue the whole "we all know most injuries are not reported" is such bullshit. if its not reported we actually dont know a damn thing. lets stop guessing that our safe sport is so dangerous and getting sucked in to the chicken little syndrome mentality!

anyway, back to you dude. yes, he was clearly in pain. poor guy, i do not think any of us ever want to see a brother in pain and i am sure it weighed on you as much as it has me any time ive cracked a dude just "right" and his weekend fun got altered in a bad way. im not making light of it, just trying to be funny is all.

but here is the thing that is actually relevant to my point. you say this happened once some decade and a half ago. then you state youve hit THOUSANDS of guys with the same shot since then with not a single repeat of the rolling around apparent injury (and it seems we dont know if it was an injury or just a guy with a low threshold. ive seen grown folk pass out 10 minutes into a tattoo and i fall asleep around 2 hours in. so we all react differently to pain).

surely you would not, should you become sem (which i would support so long asyou appoint me grand poo-bah of fightin'), that we all must wear shoulder armour because of this issue. the shield elbow rule, which is way weaker than this one since nobody has ever had an elbow injured behind a properly strapped shield which covers their elbow, would be a great example of a rule based on stupid.

i would argue that you have supplied perfectly acceptable evidence that you can, indeed, hit some cat upon his shoulder many times without fear of our little (i would callthem almost harmless in a real conflict) rattan clubs.

regards
logan

Count Johnathan wrote:

dukelogan wrote:my question was simple, has a joint been damaged by a blow.

Maybe you missed my post.

14 years ago I dislocated a guys shoulder with an overhand offside wrap. He rolled around on his face for a bit screaming and crying. It was disturbing to say the least. A couple of his buddies carted him off to get medical attention. It was fighter practice up in the woods in flagstaff. Very small area. It was never reported.

Edit: AND he was wearing heavy leather pauldrens. It was a freak incident. I don't think additional armor would have prevented it.

I hit him and his shoulder blew up. I've hit thousands of fighters with that same shot, same power and many with no shoulder protection at all with no injuries but that one time...

dukelogan wrote:well i could explain to you how the bursae can be damaged and how it is unlikely that a single impact can do that. especially from a low powered impact such as those from our rattan sticks. i actually am pretty up to date on shoulder injuries and how they occur.

however, it is clear by your snide ass little comment about winning internet debates that you have little interest in open discourse and you clearly suffered an injury to your whatever. im really sorry that you feel the need to attempt little jab like that. talk with your ortho (if youve actually seen one or just go with your very well guessed.... errr.... educated opinion) and ask him how it works. i have, i learned a lot, then i studied it more, then i had surguries, then i went through years of rehab and relearning how to work with the most complicated joint in the human body.

just so i could win an internet debate........

What do you expect when you dismiss or mock those whose opinion you don't agree with?

Look, it isn't relevant whether the injury I would try to prevent is by pure medical definition a joint injury or soft tissue injury. A simple cop, similar to the Wisby shoulder protection, or even a bit of stuff padding is all it would have taken to have prevented my injury. While I don't disagree with you that the human body can take remarkable amounts of damage with no side effect, I don't think you would find anyone who would choose to have been injured, vs never having been injured.

Maybe you missed my addendum to my post, making the min requirements for unauthorized fighters only. You can wear whatever you want after you are authorized. Go naked and helm less if you want. The new fighters are more likely to get injured than not.

i neither dismissed nor mocked you. please show me how i did or withdraw your charge. i simply tried, which apparently annoyed you, to educate the terminology you were using when YOU commented on my post. if you dont know the difference between soft tissue and joint injury thats fine but dont get all bent and twisted at me because of your ignorance (which you admitted in your post about what you "thought" was the injury). if we are trying to examine our sport and we are trying to enter into candid discourse we (meaning you) should really only try to offer "facts" if we know them.

also, i clearly did see your suggestion about requiring a different standrad for "fighters" before they are authorized. i commented on it directly. it makes no sense by the way since until and unless they are authorized they are not any official part of the sca and to make such a requirement would mean a total rewrite of the marshals policy which is just not a good idea for something that should never matter. as i stated in my reply, which you glossed over, no new fighter should ever be hit with that level of force until they are in their final few weeks of training prior to their authorization.

logan

Raeven wrote:

dukelogan wrote:well i could explain to you how the bursae can be damaged and how it is unlikely that a single impact can do that. especially from a low powered impact such as those from our rattan sticks. i actually am pretty up to date on shoulder injuries and how they occur.

however, it is clear by your snide ass little comment about winning internet debates that you have little interest in open discourse and you clearly suffered an injury to your whatever. im really sorry that you feel the need to attempt little jab like that. talk with your ortho (if youve actually seen one or just go with your very well guessed.... errr.... educated opinion) and ask him how it works. i have, i learned a lot, then i studied it more, then i had surguries, then i went through years of rehab and relearning how to work with the most complicated joint in the human body.

just so i could win an internet debate........

What do you expect when you dismiss or mock those whose opinion you don't agree with?

Look, it isn't relevant whether the injury I would try to prevent is by pure medical definition a joint injury or soft tissue injury. A simple cop, similar to the Wisby shoulder protection, or even a bit of stuff padding is all it would have taken to have prevented my injury. While I don't disagree with you that the human body can take remarkable amounts of damage with no side effect, I don't think you would find anyone who would choose to have been injured, vs never having been injured.

Maybe you missed my addendum to my post, making the min requirements for unauthorized fighters only. You can wear whatever you want after you are authorized. Go naked and helm less if you want. The new fighters are more likely to get injured than not.

Also meant to mention the reason I never had it checked out was because I did not have insurance at the time. By the time I had means to take care of it properly, the shoulder no longer gave me any discomfort.

dukelogan wrote:i neither dismissed nor mocked you. please show me how i did or withdraw your charge. i simply tried, which apparently annoyed you, to educate the terminology you were using when YOU commented on my post. if you dont know the difference between soft tissue and joint injury thats fine but dont get all bent and twisted at me because of your ignorance (which you admitted in your post about what you "thought" was the injury). if we are trying to examine our sport and we are trying to enter into candid discourse we (meaning you) should really only try to offer "facts" if we know them.

I could keep circling this merry go round with you, bout' my comment was a response to your comment which was a response to my comment, blah blah blah.

You are right. We should stick to the facts as we know them. We (meaning you) should stop injecting facts as you'd like them to be into the discussion. I've had my bursa damaged in a car accident. I was thrown against the window with enough G forces to cause me to black out momentarily. So I know what bursa inflamation feels like. I was injured by a blow from a sword that hit the point of my shoulder, a blow which was thrown under standard calibration. I know how to compare the pain and discomfort of my sword injured shoulder to the feeling of a inflamed bursa from my previous injury. Whatever occured, caused the bursa in my right shoulder to get inflamed and swell after medium to heavy use. Typically from exercises like pull ups or overhead swings. I never went to a doctor, so yes, I can only guess what the name of the particular bit of meat or bone was damaged when I was hit by that sword.

If I didn't damage my shoulder "joint", so be it. Armor or padding would have prevented my injury. The duration of the injury helped me come to my conclusion that armor mins should be increased to cover the points of the shoulders, where there is little muscle or tendon to protect the underlying connective tissue and socket.

also, i clearly did see your suggestion about requiring a different standrad for "fighters" before they are authorized. i commented on it directly. it makes no sense by the way since until and unless they are authorized they are not any official part of the sca and to make such a requirement would mean a total rewrite of the marshals policy which is just not a good idea for something that should never matter. as i stated in my reply, which you glossed over, no new fighter should ever be hit with that level of force until they are in their final few weeks of training prior to their authorization.

logan

Unless I am mistaken, SCA combat rules apply to everyone fighting at SCA sanctioned practices or events, whether they are authorised or not.

dukelogan wrote:im not aware of a single incident in which injury was done to a shoulder joint from the impact of a weapon. are you?

regards
logan

Yup, got hit in the shoulder, and had nothing there but single layer of cloth. blow came in horisotally, end my elbow was by my hip. Strange stance, really low-odds hit. Any way it cased an inflammation an strong swelling of the sinew and a pretty heavy internal bleeding in the shoulder. Took me out of work for about six weeks and required three cortizone shots if I remember correctly.

Healed fine though, and have never happened before nor after in 15 years.

you are not mistaken. a person, say, trying on armour for the first time is supposed to be line with all of the rules of combat.

regards
logan

Raeven wrote:

Unless I am mistaken, SCA combat rules apply to everyone fighting at SCA sanctioned practices or events, whether they are authorised or not.[/quote]

Count Johnathan wrote:If I were SEM I would require rigid protection on the forearm.

I've never understood why it wasn't. Seems a no brainer to me.

I think the disconnect in the conversation is that the question was what do you think an SCA legal suit of minimum armour should be able to protect a fighter from. That is clearly different from what it does do. What it actually does is minimize the chance of a life threatening injury from being bashed with a stick. That's it. Even so it is no guarantee but we have been lucky so far. Let's hope that luck extends for the duration of the SCA existance.

So, back when I was KEM of Atlantia, we had 2 (or was it 4?) broken forearms in one month. The two primary similarities: lack of good vambraces, and lefty/righty W&S fights.

I polled the kingdom and asked for response on a proposal to require rigid vambraces. The response was almost unanimous: NO! Everyone felt that it should not be a rule. Basic sentiment was that a smart fighter will wear a rigid vambrace on the open arm, but that was their choice. Let them figure out the risk trades.

Of course, we should probably have banned righties.

As to the original question, I would take 7 and above, tied specifically to a 10 that is insurance.

The insurance thing is critical. I had Aetna try to force me to sue the site owner and SCA when I broke my thumb at an event. While the vast majority of SCA folks will not sue, there are cases where they may be forced by their insurance carriers.

T

dukelogan wrote:im not aware of a single incident in which injury was done to a shoulder joint from the impact of a weapon. are you?

regards
logan

If you define the joint to include the bone on either side of the connective tissue, yes.

T