Better marshal inspection at events due to new spearheads?

twoswords · Post by **twoswords** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:12 pm

The discussion about the new 2" spearheads vs. 3" spearheads may continue to go on in the OTHER thread.

What I wish to discuss here is if there is a need for a more focused and controlled inspection at events. For many years our biggest safety flaw in the entire armor has been the gap presented between neck and head, and thereby the exposed throat area. When I write "fighters" I do not mean each an every one, I am only stating the word for ease of reading.

For a long period of time, those of us who have inspected other fighters have seen it; when asked to lean their head backwards the fighter pushes the head back, creating a narrower throat gap, instead of leaning the head back to allow the marshal to see the gap. It is a very common thing, and most marshals let it slide and figure that "It's that fighters problem".

Another issue is the gap created when fighters twist their head slightly upwards and back in order to dodge a spear shot. This does much to expose the throat and side of the neck.

So far it has not been a big issue, since the three inch spearheads need to hit at a specific angle combined with a bit of bad luck for anything to happen. But with the new ones things will be different. 1 inch different to be specific. This means that where it was earlier hard to hit, the new tips will slide in easier, thus exposing the fighter to a greater damage risk.

With one handed or two handed weapons this has not been such a big issue due to the angle of attacks. The 3" spear had its surface to rely on for a form of safety, even with a better angle of attack for shots hitting the throat. However, the new spear tip has the perfect angle to slide in between the helmet and gorget when these don't help support/overlap each others protective areas, and it will be helped along with the smaller tip.

With this in mind, will there be a need to tighten up inspections at events, and in particular events such as Pennsic? Using Pennsic as an example, the inspections performed are very basic. I have never had anyone check if my helmet had a strap, check if the helmet twists, or how big of a gap there is if I bend my head backwards or sideways.

I have witnessed many people at inspection point as well as on the field with very exposed throats, who pass inspection. In my opinion this needs to change with the introduction of a smaller weapon.

Thoughts?

Livia Tasia · Post by **Livia Tasia** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:30 pm

It's a scary thought that there is more of a possibility the tip could get to the throat area easier because it's smaller. It'll be interesting to hear how the other guys weigh in on this.

chris19d · Post by **chris19d** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:23 pm

You shouldn't need a marshal to tell you your kit is legal or not, as a fighter you should be knowledgeable of the rules (and if you are unsure be proactive and find out) and take steps to ensure that your harness is safe and legal every time you step onto the field. That includes asking Chiv or more experienced fighters for help if you are unsure of the safety of your equipment or have a question about how something should work, and inspecting it regularly. One thing that I cant comprehend is the guys who show up for a practice etc and something that broke last week still isn't fixed and they're taping their harness together before the practice even started. Personally, I inspect my gear before and after every practice. I'll typically inspect my harness the night before and fix any deficiencies, then the day of practice before I leave I lay it out again to make sure i have everything and didn't miss any issues. Then after practice while I'm wiping down the armor I'll inspect it again and note any deficiencies and fix them between then and the next practice. Yea Im abit OC about my gear (habit I picked up int he Army), but whats so hard about being proactive and making sure your kits serviceable and safe.

Livia Tasia · Post by **Livia Tasia** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:33 pm

That's good advice. It still makes me wonder about the original point of whether the 2" can get to the neck easier and what you would need to do to avoid it. I had to add an extra piece of leather on the bottom of the grill on my regular helm after getting it by a regular size pole.

Tasia

hrolf · Post by **hrolf** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:39 pm

well, what about 1.25" swords with thrusties? your gorget and helm had better stop /those/ - so why care about anything that's bigger? You know it'll be stopped.

Livia Tasia · Post by **Livia Tasia** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:40 pm

Good point.

chris19d · Post by **chris19d** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:53 pm

hrolf wrote:well, what about 1.25" swords with thrusties? your gorget and helm had better stop /those/ - so why care about anything that's bigger? You know it'll be stopped.

I agree, a 2" spear should be a non issue (why I didn't address it directly in my earlier post) a properly constructed harness should offer sufficient protection against penetration by a threat with ~38% less diameter, and the 2" spear itself is not new, there have been 2" ratan (and for a while hardwood) spears for years. Personally I don't see changing my kit (atleast in terms of helm/gorget interface) in response to the rule change, the combination of gorget and aventail I currently wear, in my opinion, provides a sufficient level of protection, if i can take a stout blow to the front of the throat and not experience undue discomfort, I feel confident facing the new 2"-fiber-spears-of-death/maiming without fear of death or dismemberment.

twoswords · Post by **twoswords** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:32 pm

hrolf wrote:well, what about 1.25" swords with thrusties? your gorget and helm had better stop /those/ - so why care about anything that's bigger? You know it'll be stopped.

As I said earlier; "
With one handed or two handed weapons this has not been such a big issue due to the angle of attacks."
Attacks with one handed weapons usually come at the head at a different angle; either horizontally, or from a 65-80 degree angle. This makes hitting a vital spot much more harder. Two handed attacks are normally also coming in from a straight horizontal angle.

While the thrusts from these weapons also can have dangerous angles, they are more controlled and maneuverable, and thrown with less force, especially when a person is tired. A spear has an angle of attack which is perfect for hitting the neck/throat, and especially the larynx area. Attacks come in at 30-60 degree angle. When a fighter with a spear is tired, they often try to throw harder to increase the speed. This drops accuracy and add forward force, making the spear shot much more dangerous.

Hrolf, while I appreciate that you feel you have sufficient protection to "take a stout blow to the front of the throat", there will still be a fairly large number of people out there who did not have adequate protection from start. Those people are the reason for my original post.

Cris10d; "whats so hard about being proactive and making sure your kits serviceable and safe"
One issue which appears over and over at larger events are people who come out to fight a few times a year. Many of them are not up to speed on new rules, and a significant number of them do have the mentality of "my armor has worked so far".

As I mentioned earlier; ,y original post was not about all fighters. There are a number out there who have well constructed, very safe armors. I am advocating stricter marshal inspections to find the people who are in the risk zone and allow them time to change their armor to make it safe, especially at larger events such as Pennsic where I have experienced over and over that this issue (exposed throat) is hardly being checked at all.

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:59 pm

It is the responsibilty of fighters I face to make sure their gear will protect them from me so that I do not have to worry about injuring them.

If they fail in that responsibility I have no sympathy for them.

chris19d · Post by **chris19d** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:03 pm

twoswords wrote:"With one handed or two handed weapons this has not been such a big issue due to the angle of attacks."
Attacks with one handed weapons usually come at the head at a different angle; either horizontally, or from a 65-80 degree angle. This makes hitting a vital spot much more harder. Two handed attacks are normally also coming in from a straight horizontal angle.

There have been 2" spears on the field for years though, its not some completely new threat. Yes, ratan spears are less common currently than fiber but 2" tipped spears have existed for decades.

Nissan Maxima wrote:It is the responsibilty of fighters I face to make sure their gear will protect them from me so that I do not have to worry about injuring them.

If they fail in that responsibility I have no sympathy for them.

+1 Stupid hurts :lol:

I wont say I'd be completely unsympathetic, I wouldn't be happy about the situation, but they have no one to blame but themselves.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:04 pm

twoswords wrote:
hrolf wrote:well, what about 1.25" swords with thrusties? your gorget and helm had better stop /those/ - so why care about anything that's bigger? You know it'll be stopped.

As I said earlier; "
With one handed or two handed weapons this has not been such a big issue due to the angle of attacks."
Attacks with one handed weapons usually come at the head at a different angle; either horizontally, or from a 65-80 degree angle. This makes hitting a vital spot much more harder. Two handed attacks are normally also coming in from a straight horizontal angle.

I would tend to disagree with this assumption or at least clarify the assumptions. STRIKES with single handed weapons may come in from the angles described but THRUSTS from single handed weapons frequently do not. Angle of potential thrusts my be significantly limited by a targets shield and shield hand but not eliminate them entirely.

An upper thrusting tip on a ma-don't is a prime chin-gap seeker. A lot of florentine fighters who fight in A-frame defense will find thrusts to the upper chest and face a prime target. Even fighting basic weapon and shield I have had the opportunity to land 3 thrusts to chins in my 20 years of fighting (inconsistent). It is a rarity but not impossible.

This said I don't think a 2" tip is inherently less safe but I WILL be paying more attention to certain marginal gaps while inspecting. Not every fighter is on the AA or a kingdom e-mail list. Quite a few will be damn surprised that weapon standards have changed and may elect to modify their own armor after being informed of what they will be facing.

Sean

twoswords · Post by **twoswords** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:32 pm

Nissan Maxima wrote:It is the responsibilty of fighters I face to make sure their gear will protect them from me so that I do not have to worry about injuring them.

If they fail in that responsibility I have no sympathy for them.

I agree with you in what you wrote above Nissan. I am just worried when I see some of the people out there fighting, and I can see the huge gaps in their armor.

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:33 pm

twoswords wrote:
Nissan Maxima wrote:It is the responsibilty of fighters I face to make sure their gear will protect them from me so that I do not have to worry about injuring them.

If they fail in that responsibility I have no sympathy for them.

I agree with you in what you wrote above Nissan. I am just worried when I see some of the people out there fighting, and I can see the huge gaps in their armor.

You are nicer than me.

jester · Post by **jester** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:38 pm

This was discussed here. As I recall the discussion, that area doesn't have to be armored. I personally armor that area with the mail that hangs from my helmet. Required or not, I've been hit there before.

Angusm0628 · Post by **Angusm0628** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:43 pm

I don't see this becoming an issue. 2" and smaller tips have been around for a while (As previously pointed out). The standards as they are should be plenty enough. If not, the issue will be noted and either our armour standard will increase (doubtful) or we will be back to pillows on fiberglass sticks.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:07 pm

So am I list legal?

I'm not "Nissan Legal" because I don't have a Clovenshield tabard...yet...but it's on order! :lol:

Cedric · Post by **Cedric** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:20 pm

Legal?

"You're armoured enough for 3 Ansteorrans!"

chris19d · Post by **chris19d** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:33 pm

Cedric wrote:Legal?

"You're armoured enough for 3 Ansteorrans!"

more like 1.5 :twisted:

[img]http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad259/chris19delta/006-4.jpg[/img]

Unfortunately no pics of me in it, currently wearing a COP until either the jupon or the westland gambison i have on order to hide the kidney belt show up, and I get around to ordering a globose BP

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:36 pm

Nissan Maxima wrote:It is the responsibilty of fighters I face to make sure their gear will protect them from me so that I do not have to worry about injuring them.

If they fail in that responsibility I have no sympathy for them.

But that's not the question being asked. I pretty much agree with you on this count.

The question being asked relates to the institution's responsibilities, not the individual's.

Putting itself forward as arbiting the safety of the heavy fighting occurring under its aegis, what impact does the decision of the Marshalate to change the minimum diameter of spear thrusting tips have on marshals' inspection of participants' armour (and weapons) ?

I would argue that it should have no impact whatsoever, because it does not change the nature of the obligation to perform proper inspections in accordance with the rules of the SCA.

I would not want to have to make the case that such proper inspections were uniformly happening throughout the SCA at all fighting events and that all marshals were properly trained in performing inspections, competent to perform proper inspections and actually conducting proper inspections.

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:22 pm

I don't think the neck gap issue will actually be an issue at all. We have already been using 2" tips on other weapons and no such problems arose really. I'll not say that it couldn't happen but It does not appear to be the main concern of those who aren't so sure about the 2" tips on fiber idea.

The neck gap thing has always bothered me when looking at other fighters and it is my main opposition to lo pro thrusties. I am actually very surprised those didn't cause more of a problem in that regard.

So far they have not (that I know of) but I wouldn't be surprised to hear of a couple neck gap penetrating thrusts where there was little or no harm done so nobody bothered to consider it a real problem.

Hell we've heard of fiberglass rods the diameter of a #2 pencil going into grills but no deaths so f##@ it! No harm no foul right? Seems to be where the organization has gone too as a measure of potential problems with equipment.

chris19d · Post by **chris19d** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:04 am

I think the society even with thin arrows and the new +2 fiber spears of maiming the society rules are far safer than most other systems of combat. Some of the rebated steel stuff can be truly scary at times (like no shit maiming/death/life altering injury scary) I almost poked a guys eye out (while doing everything right on my end), I thrusted over his shield to his rt shoulder and instead of parying as he'd been taught he tried tried knock the thrust high with his shield (presumably to set me up for a low thrust) and in the process deflected my sword up into his face (whole reason people are taught not to do that), with the thrust landing just (<1/2") to the left of his rt eye. Perhaps my experience with much more dangerous reenactment combat makes me a bit cavalier about the potential hazards of SCA combat, but short of the silly foam games (which imo don't really count) you'd be hard pressed to find a safer game than the SCA.

Thomas MacFinn · Post by **Thomas MacFinn** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:40 am

Yes, I think that marshals doing armor inspection should do their job instead of assuming the fighter knows his part. This should not be a change from what is currently happening.

Most fighters do a fine job, know their equipment well and don't really need a marshal's intervention. However, just once in twenty years, I personally have dashed across a field because people had blades up ready to fight at an authorization and all involved had failed to notice that a novice with a door shield only had shorts and shoes under his waist: he may have had a cup, but had no thigh or knee armor of any kind. When they inspected his helm, everybody had stood on the wrong side of his dangling shield.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:36 am

I've seen fighters go to inspections forgetting their gorget, 1/2 gauntlet, and other pieces of armor.

Inspected one guy when I noticed he didn't have knee pads on.

Not everyone realizes that the bars in their helm have bent enough to fail.

Having some 3rd party look things over isn't a bad thing. Having a poorly TRAINED 3rd person is.

.

chris19d · Post by **chris19d** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:03 pm

Thomas MacFinn wrote:Yes, I think that marshals doing armor inspection should do their job instead of assuming the fighter knows his part. This should not be a change from what is currently happening.

Most fighters do a fine job, know their equipment well and don't really need a marshal's intervention. However, just once in twenty years, I personally have dashed across a field because people had blades up ready to fight at an authorization and all involved had failed to notice that a novice with a door shield only had shorts and shoes under his waist: he may have had a cup, but had no thigh or knee armor of any kind. When they inspected his helm, everybody had stood on the wrong side of his dangling shield.

Is thigh armor required in your kingdom? I know here its highly recommended but optional

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:05 pm

Cedric wrote:Legal?

"You're armoured enough for 3 Ansteorrans!"

What? He doesn't even have a shield big enough for one Ansteorran!

chris19d · Post by **chris19d** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:10 pm

Saritor wrote:
Cedric wrote:Legal?

"You're armoured enough for 3 Ansteorrans!"

What? He doesn't even have a shield big enough for one Ansteorran!

A shield big enough for 3 of my countrymen would be mighty indeed, and I know just the place to find one. On second thought it may be a little on the small side but should be suitable for practice, it would never do in a mele... :p

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:15 pm

chris19d wrote:A shield big enough for 3 of my countrymen would be mighty indeed, and I know just the place to find one. On second thought it may be a little on the small side but should be suitable for practice, it would never do in a mele... :p

I think you linked the wrong, picture, good sir. Clearly you meant the other wall of the barn.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:41 pm

Thigh armor falls under "highly reccomended" - I beleive the issue in Thomas' example is the lack of KNEE armor.

I know few guys in the Midrealm that fight without any thigh armor, and I just cringe to think about it.

chris19d wrote:
Thomas MacFinn wrote:Yes, I think that marshals doing armor inspection should do their job instead of assuming the fighter knows his part. This should not be a change from what is currently happening.

Most fighters do a fine job, know their equipment well and don't really need a marshal's intervention. However, just once in twenty years, I personally have dashed across a field because people had blades up ready to fight at an authorization and all involved had failed to notice that a novice with a door shield only had shorts and shoes under his waist: he may have had a cup, but had no thigh or knee armor of any kind. When they inspected his helm, everybody had stood on the wrong side of his dangling shield.

Is thigh armor required in your kingdom? I know here its highly recommended but optional

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:09 pm

At West Crown tournament they have a "Grand Melee" in between each set of fights. Everybody who is authorized can get on the field and mix it up for fun. Wonderful, enjoyable fights.

So I'm at West Crown touranment and they call "Grand Melee" (I'd been knocked out of the competition very early) and I toss on my helmet and run out onto the field. And after Achilies of Sparta smacks his spear into my midsection I trot back off the field to see my wife and chat. And she says, "Where are your arms?"

:shock:

I'd run out on the field with my arming coat and elbow pads. The arming coat is THICK (it's part of the "flight suit" now) and I think it would have taken a incredible shot to hurt me...but man I ran out there without my ARMS on! :shock:

I can see people missing armour pieces. I've done it. Sometimes it's so fun you forget you need a parachute when you jump out of the plane I guess.

Still fun though.

Jonathon More · Post by **Jonathon More** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:25 pm

Someone go ask Sir Ephriam of the mid about how he reported to the list field without his helmet at one of the first Eastwatch "iron weasel triathalons"

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:44 pm

Jonathon More wrote:Someone go ask Sir Ephriam of the mid about how he reported to the list field without his helmet at one of the first Eastwatch "iron weasel triathalons"

I know a fellow who is 3 and 0 without his helm. And one of those was a formal tourney bout. Yep - marshal was inattentive enough to have called lay on while one of the fighters in his list was not wearing a helm...

Cedric · Post by **Cedric** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:02 am

Saritor wrote:
Cedric wrote:Legal?

"You're armoured enough for 3 Ansteorrans!"

What? He doesn't even have a shield big enough for one Ansteorran!

Once upon a time (12+ years ago) a friend and I went to a household event in Ansteorra. They called for armour inspection, and my friend was the first in line. The marshall took one look at him and said "Shit, son, you got enough armour on for 3 Ansteorrans! Get out of here...". I was next, he glanced at me and said "yeah, you too... I don't need to inspect you either - go have fun". I think we were the only two guys there with any thigh armour on at all.

It has been a running joke in our household ever since.

ThorvaldR Skegglauss · Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:10 am

Marcus,

I think it is a non-issue. Because we have had 2" thrusties on spears for years. Yes rattan but that doesn't change the ability of it to get through as you are concerned about. What you are really talking about is the quality of inspections not any real need for change.

regards
ThorvaldR

Thomas MacFinn · Post by **Thomas MacFinn** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:09 pm

Diglach mac Cein wrote:Thigh armor falls under "highly reccomended" - I beleive the issue in Thomas' example is the lack of KNEE armor.

Correct. This guy had *nothing* between his shorts and his shoes. He lived near the campground, had attended the war the previous year, thought heavy combat looked like fun, and had purchased some equipment somewhere. He had never attended a single practice.

Thorbrandr · Post by **Thorbrandr** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:26 am

I think with the level of concern over the new 2" tips on fiberglass it is prudent for the marshals to be more vigilant on the thrusting points, and weapons in general.

Should it be different just because of the points? No. But in my opinion inspection on thrusting points has become more and more of a token action. Some I have seen passed the past few years are total bricks. In the past I remember multiple cases of fighters at wars being told to put more padding on.

I am less concerned on each individual's armor. They wear what they wear by choice, as long as it is legal. Newer folks and some less, er, mechanically inclined I will keep a closer eye on. They may have done something they though would work, but doesn't. There there are things like protruding bolts on the inside of the helm, broken bars, sharp edges, and breakages they may not have realized.

Checking armor to make sure nothing is forgotten is always good. I have more than once forgotten to put something back on after a break or when changing forms.

The neck thing is a fine balancing act. I have seen it go too far. I remember a Pennsic where a marshal was determined that he could force a sword onto my throat. I was wearing a barbute, and steel collar/gorget that overlapped 1" under the helm in normal position. The fool almost caused a neck injury trying to force my head back. The audience he attracted was laughing at him. On the other side there is a lot of exposed neck out there. When I got my new helmet from Duke Maelgwyn, it left a lot of neck exposed with my old gorget. I made a new gorget to fix the problem. But I think most marshal's would have passed the old one.

T