The Armour Archive

Face it Brother, we have become legend and myth

The thing that gets me about this style of jousting that Shane and Charlie are advertising is it doesn't encapsulate the things that make jousting the sport it is. Jousting is a complex sport that is meant to demonstrate weapon skill, equitation, athleticism and chivalry. What the guys are doing really is more like Roshambo on horses with sticks!!

Just as a side note, i think you will find that the main reason they are unhorsing people all the time has a lot more to do with the lance design and wood than anything else. Being that the lances have no taper to them, that they are just dowel they act more like springs rather than lances.

For an explination of Roshambo :-
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1604909

Luke

I did that style of jousting for 8 years. Luke nails the reason dead on. All we did was go to the local big box hardware store between faire weekends and buy up all the 10 foot pine closet rods. Add the copper cap at the end and you have one awesome springboard.
Back in the 90's we had three shows a day for two days six lance passes a show. We averaged at least one unhorsing a day. Our record in our "squad" was myself and Cyril Oatley who had nine unhorsings in one show. We were hot tempered, and refused to stop even after three double unhorsings. Like I said, I'm glad I grew up.

You've seen my videos from when I was there in slow mo. The lances are just like big springs. Basically a lot of this style of joust comes down to just who is bigger and heavier.

It was a source of constant surprise to them that I could do well at it when I was so much smaller.

Yep! You get a good hit, and the lance didn't bust? Dirt nap.

Like a big finger bending and shooting out pushing you right off.

Leo Medii wrote:Yep! You get a good hit, and the lance didn't bust? Dirt nap.

Like a big finger bending and shooting out pushing you right off.

Yep, that is exactly it. I would always try to lock in and give it a big pull upwards to break the damn thing 'cause I knew if I didn't my 120kg in armour was getting catapulted out of there.

Damn, thought I was long past putting my foot in my mouth during internet discussions.
I really am sorry about that.

Your lance tips actually collided, and that's what caused the accident? Damn.
Whichever news article I read (doubt it was the NY Times, I don't usually read it, print or online), they made it sound entirely like competing with an injury led to really bad targeting. Nor do I remember it mentioning that you were competing under contract. Again, the implied reason was that you were choosing to compete while injured because of a culture of machismo.

Is Jousting the Next Extreme Sport?

In one much-talked-about incident a few years ago, the Australian jouster Rod Walker suffered a partly severed penis when a lance veered south during a match at a Renaissance fair in Michigan — a targeting failure that might not have happened if both he and his opponent hadn’t been competing with broken hands. -pg 3

[i]Back in the stable area, other dramas were unfolding. Several jousters were complaining that Lambke was “ducking outâ€

Posted on my FB and on the ESPN video page.

What a surprise. Charlie Andrews lied about being a Navy Seal.

http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1142.htm
Scroll down to Andrews.

Rod Walker wrote:Posted on my FB and on the ESPN video page.

What a surprise. Charlie Andrews lied about being a Navy Seal.

http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1142.htm
Scroll down to Andrews.

Wow LOL

The marine I knew was in fact a liar

Put the research librarian on him.

...RELEASE THE HOOONDS!!!......

Best,

John

Mike England wrote:Why I hate "heavy armour jousting",

at 4:50 on that clip Jessica post lost her balance and fell off unstruck. I don't mean to besmirch the lady but she certainly was not ready to be competing.
Shane and Charlie have had a lot of people joust with them over the years. Why are still filling the lists with novices?

I mean its fun to watch a smash up derby but isn't formula 1 just a bit more interesting with "slightly" higher caliber drivers and actual authentic race cars?

With all due respect, Miss Post came in 4th place in the heavy armour division the first day of competition in Estes, despite unhorsing herself during one of the passes. She came in 4th, of a field of about 12, behind Charlie, Shane and Ripper Moore. Not too shabby if I do say so myself. They allow newbies to compete because they pay dearly for the training, and they pay for the horse, and the cost of transport as well. It is just the same as if someone who wanted to go on a hunt with their local group. You put out money, the rest follows, quite easily. There are more newbies who are going to compete at Estes this year. Newbies that dont have one full year of jousting under their belt. Money talks, bullshit walks baby.

You put out money, the rest follows, quite easily

Although I am quite sure you didn't mean it that way, truer words were never spoken. 'The rest' that follows is the primary reason we do not and never offer cash prizes for our events. People get invited, they all get paid the same amount to compete, and the winner gets bragging rights and a trinket.

I suppose the value placed on 'renown' is one of the key differences in approaches.

Gwen

Equestria wrote:

Mike England wrote:Why I hate "heavy armour jousting",

at 4:50 on that clip Jessica post lost her balance and fell off unstruck. I don't mean to besmirch the lady but she certainly was not ready to be competing.
Shane and Charlie have had a lot of people joust with them over the years. Why are still filling the lists with novices?

I mean its fun to watch a smash up derby but isn't formula 1 just a bit more interesting with "slightly" higher caliber drivers and actual authentic race cars?

With all due respect, Miss Post came in 4th place in the heavy armour division the first day of competition in Estes, despite unhorsing herself during one of the passes. She came in 4th, of a field of about 12, behind Charlie, Shane and Ripper Moore. Not too shabby if I do say so myself. They allow newbies to compete because they pay dearly for the training, and they pay for the horse, and the cost of transport as well. It is just the same as if someone who wanted to go on a hunt with their local group. You put out money, the rest follows, quite easily. There are more newbies who are going to compete at Estes this year. Newbies that dont have one full year of jousting under their belt. Money talks, bullshit walks baby.

Let me get this straight. Her half assed training didn't include enough of the basics to be able to balance her self on the horse, while travelling in a straight line on smooth level footing without falling off and because she paid someone for this training she is qualified to joust? I mean just because she can't control herself in the saddle her magic lance should be able to target OK? Do you think she finished forth because her she's awesome or maybe her competitors were actually worse?

Even Roy will ground you if you suck bad enough.

If bullshit walks I name thee Pedestria.

Roy is different than Shane and Charlie. For one, Shane charges about $150/hour and makes you ride with no stirrups at first. Jessica is an accomplished horsewoman, and definitely knows how to stay in the saddle. Yes, things are totally different in armour. Let me put it to you this way. Say you do want to go on a hunt, but dont have much experience, or a horse of your own. You go to the local "hunt barn" and tell them you want to go on a hunt. They dont care how much experience you have, they just care if you have money. You give them X amount of dollars and they will meet you at the hunt field with your horse impeccably groomed and ready to rock. It is the same exact thing in jousting. If you have enough money to put down on the table, and you say "I want to joust", you will have a ride. When these joust troupes are already losing their shirts, any further income is welcome.

OH! And I think she finished fourth because she does actually have some skill.........I havent seen or heard of another female jousting that well in "Heavy Division" since Kate.

AND should I ask you how your first tournament went??

Signed, lovingly,
Pedestria

LOL!!

---$150 AN HOUR?!?!?!?!?!-----

Now I know what we're doing wrong, we don't charge enough!!!

I'd like to state once again for the record, the same thing I told Charlie and his [entourage/production company/promoters/posse/groupies/whatever they were] at our event- all the posturing and chest beating aside, as far as I'm concerned, we're doing different things, so there's no reason to be on each other's case. I have little or no interest in extreme sports for money, and they have little or no interest in history, so why waste time and effort fighting about it? I wish them luck with their endeavours, and if they will just stop bad mouthing my competitors, I'll consider that a reciprocal act of well wishing.

Go look at the Brian Price thread- if Charlie is really the fraud that public record seems to report him to be, then it's just a matter of time before it catches up with him. With the current pro-America/pro-military attitude in this country, lying about military service will eventually cut him off at the knees. Football fans may be willing to forgive Michael Vick for abusing dogs, but very few people are going to look the other way from a guy who misrepresented military service. It's going to be nothing short of a boat anchor around his ankles. I feel sorry for him that he was so short sighted as to lie about it in the first place.

Equestria, I seem to remember having a discussion with you on another thread, and the tone was very cordial. I'm not interested in starting a tempest in a teapot with you now.



I hope you have realized your goal of competing at the Maryland RenFest. Did you ever get in touch with the IJL people to participate in any of their tournaments? I know Fred is always looking for women to compete.

Gwen

I have been working with horses most of my life.
I have trained with World Champion trainers, on Million dollar horses.

I have NEVER seen anyone charge $150 an hour.

Thank you so much Gwen!

I have absolutely no interest in starting a fire, either, with anyone. I simply wanted to put the FACTS out there. Miss Post is my friend, I know exactly what she went through, and I aim to defend her. I have been meaning to get in touch with you about the IJL, but life has been crazy. I do intend on pursuing that avenue. Should I get in touch with Fred instead?

XOXO

I think he is your most direct link. If you don't mind, would you drop me a line at gwen @ historicenterprises.com, please? That way it is very easy for me to send a letter of introduction to both you and Fred at the same time so you are in direct contact. He's already started his event year and is probably lining up competitors for events now.

Thanks!!

Gwen

Will do.

Thanks again, Gwen!

Equestria wrote:AND should I ask you how your first tournament went??

Signed, lovingly,
Pedestria

LOL!!

You do know that I was at MD for your first tournament. I didn't see every time you fell off unstruck but I was there for one of them, the others I gathered from hearday.

FYI my record at DL in 2005 was,
Victory over Mike Elderkin (called after third pass, he has trouble during qualifying and was only given provisional admission, during the joust his horse balked).
Unhorsed vs Pat Bjerke on the third pass. Left a nice dent in my 14GA SS breastplate. Blew half my rivets and had my armour duct taped back on but withdrew after a crush of ground support personnel spooked my horse at the mounting block.
The next morning I got a concussion during a double unhorsing with Cassandra Adams and withdrew from the competition on doctors orders.
I entered that competition knowing I needed work, as would anyone in their first competition and I felt proud that I had legitimately qualified on my own horse in my own armour. I wasn't bobbling all over the place, I hit no one in the crotch.

For the record I fully support women in jousting. Jessica needed more time to develop her balance and should have waited until she had that. I am irked that they feel obliged to fill a roster with bodies so they can brag about all the competitors they have. Bullshit is having some buffoon who slept in a Holiday Inn express last night come bobbling down the chute with their lance all over the place and striking your horse or your groin (and I ain't talking about Lloyd).

Riding without stirrups is a good exercize but a weekend or even a 2 week training session doing that won't get you ready for anything. For years I have ridden a lap at the trot at every lesson and practice as part of my warm up. But there are many exercizes to improve balance and just sticking to that one won't get you far. FYI Roy used to have stirrup less riding in his training.

FYI that pic up there of Christine, she's wearing Kates armour on one of the Freelancer horses.

If you were there to see my first tournament, then you would have seen my horse stopping at the exact point of impact. I only came off once and it was because of that. IF you are trying to insinuate that I have hit someone in the crotch, you are sadly mistaken. I have NEVER EVER hit anyone in the crotch. Nor have I EVERRR had a low blow, K?
Mike, I have no interest in bantering with you, therefore am not wasting any more of my time on you.

Equestria wrote:Roy is different than Shane and Charlie. For one, Shane charges about $150/hour and makes you ride with no stirrups at first.

$150 an hour?

And he can't even afford stirrups?

Equestria wrote:If you were there to see my first tournament, then you would have seen my horse stopping at the exact point of impact. I only came off once and it was because of that. IF you are trying to insinuate that I have hit someone in the crotch, you are sadly mistaken. I have NEVER EVER hit anyone in the crotch. Nor have I EVERRR had a low blow, K?
Mike, I have no interest in bantering with you, therefore am not wasting any more of my time on you.

I think you know the crotch striker of which I spoke very well.

zachos-

Dry, very dry.

Mike you sure seem intent on snidely negating whatever Equestria and I have to say.
What's your agenda? Whom are you trying to impress?

Mike England wrote:

Equestria wrote:If you were there to see my first tournament, then you would have seen my horse stopping at the exact point of impact. I only came off once and it was because of that. IF you are trying to insinuate that I have hit someone in the crotch, you are sadly mistaken. I have NEVER EVER hit anyone in the crotch. Nor have I EVERRR had a low blow, K?
Mike, I have no interest in bantering with you, therefore am not wasting any more of my time on you.

I think you know the crotch striker of which I spoke very well.

You speak in riddles.
It's not chivalric to be mealy mouthed.
Say what you mean or don't bother.

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:Mike you sure seem intent on snidely negating whatever Equestria and I have to say.
What's your agenda? Whom are you trying to impress?

Mike England wrote:

Equestria wrote:If you were there to see my first tournament, then you would have seen my horse stopping at the exact point of impact. I only came off once and it was because of that. IF you are trying to insinuate that I have hit someone in the crotch, you are sadly mistaken. I have NEVER EVER hit anyone in the crotch. Nor have I EVERRR had a low blow, K?
Mike, I have no interest in bantering with you, therefore am not wasting any more of my time on you.

I think you know the crotch striker of which I spoke very well.

You speak in riddles.
It's not chivalric to be mealy mouthed.
Say what you mean or don't bother.

I did not intend a riddle. Merely left a name out to protect the guilty. I said that Chris knows him well as do you and that is no riddle. You can tell him and if we cross paths we may discuss it in person if he wishes.

As far as agenda I tire of hearing "heavy armour jousting" lauded. What the IJL and RA are doing is awesome. I tire of showing good riders my armour and being asked about jousting and hearing them get psyched about it only to have them see the heavy's and become disgusted. I think my speach has been too easily irked and that would impress no one.

Mike England wrote:I did not intend a riddle. Merely left a name out to protect the guilty. I said that Chris knows him well as do you and that is no riddle. You can tell him and if we cross paths we may discuss it in person if he wishes.

I still don't know who you are talking about. I know a lot of riders.
As for the "You can tell him..." well, you can talk your own shit. You don't need me to ride your drama llama for you.
That little chest thump at the end pretty much killed whatever curiosity I had about WFT it is you think you're talking about.

Mike England wrote:As far as agenda I tire of hearing "heavy armour jousting" lauded. What the IJL and RA are doing is awesome. I tire of showing good riders my armour and being asked about jousting and hearing them get psyched about it only to have them see the heavy's and become disgusted.

I surmise that if you have riders walking away from you it ain't because of what other people say or do.

Mike England wrote:I think my speach has been too easily irked and that would impress no one.

I have no idea what this means but I'm ok with that.

We're having a practice at Paul's again in April.
Why don't you come joust some of us instead of just talking shite on tha Intarwebz?

Funny I never mentioned Paul & Co.

Hey Mike-

I understand your frustration, but try not to let it get the best of you. I don't like hearing my guys called 'girls' and 'poofters' either, but hey, consider the source.

Having talked to him in person, I assure you that Charlie is someone to be pitied, not someone to get all worked up over. The man is -desperate-, and I do not use that word lightly. Beneath the bragging and the 'tough guy' show is a middle aged guy who is very beat up, and looking at the end of the only career he knows. He is frustrated, disenchanted and scared, and like most bullies, he hides it behind an act.

He can't for the life of him understand why what we are doing is gaining momentum, and why we have a queue of people lined up to compete, when offering money and begging people won't get competitors to their events. He's got nothing to fall back on, and he's trying to figure out how to pay the bills and support his wife and kid/s when he's too beat up to joust any more.

He came to our event to plead his case, tryingto sell me the idea that we could work together, to have some sort of 'light' and 'heavy' division. He just can't wrap his brain around the fact that what we are doing is so far apart that there is no way we can work together. I tried to encourage them to exploit what they're doing, to be even more WWF/extreme, because that was where the money is. Maybe he or his guys listened, and this is the result. I don't know, but it is definitely something I suggested to his promoter.

As far as the bone you're picking with Trystan and Equestria, think twice before you continue on a public forum. I'm not saying you don't have a right to be pissed about something, maybe you do. I don't know, and I don't want to know. I do know that this sort of squabbling does none of you any good, it's just a cheap show for the spectators. If you want to be taken seriously, you don't have the luxury of acting like an ass in public. That's as true for me as it is for you.

Pax dudes. Tell these folks about your passion, and make them understand how important it is to you. You take it seriously, make the people understand too.

Gwen

For what it's worth, the problem I have with putting people up to joust before they're really ready is that the horses may take the brunt of it. Anyone who truly cares about their horses will NOT put a lance (especially a solid one) in the hand of someone who is not properly trained, because the horse has no choice in the matter-- and who's fault is it if the horse gets struck??

We use all 4 of our horses for schooling new riders and in about 6 years of instructing people, we have only let one of our students actually break lances against another rider, and that was after over a solid year of training him. A few days or perhaps weeks of training, even for an "experienced" rider, does not necessarily make someone a jouster. It usually takes a lot more.

The safety of horses is paramount in our minds, well behind that of the riders' safety. Horses don't choose to be out there. Riders do, but a rider with a wild lance can forever ruin a horse for jousting.

Mike England wrote:Funny I never mentioned Paul & Co.

I don't understand why you said this either.
I was just telling you about an upcoming opportunity to joust that is very near where you live.
We invite you repeatedly yet you decline repeatedly - not so good for your martial renowne.

Is Paul your super-triple-secret crotch destroyerer?
If so, I cannot seem to recall the incident(s) in question.
Is this like some conspiracy theory?
Is your tinfoil armet on too tight?

We seem to be having two different conversations here.
I'm happy to be done with this nonsense if you are inclined to take Gwen's good advice.

Here's my (unsolicited) advice: Don't talk shit about people that have more martial accomplishments than you - it makes you look skeezy.

. I feel sorry for him that he was so short sighted as to lie about it in the first place.

This baffles me too. People who joust are already some pretty tough folks, and have something that 99.999999999999% of the people in the world to talk smack about and yet they feel the need to embellish it with being some Nepalese renegade ninja master. Baffled!

Having talked to him in person, I assure you that Charlie is someone to be pitied, not someone to get all worked up over. The man is -desperate-, and I do not use that word lightly. Beneath the bragging and the 'tough guy' show is a middle aged guy who is very beat up, and looking at the end of the only career he knows. He is frustrated, disenchanted and scared, and like most bullies, he hides it behind an act.

He can't for the life of him understand why what we are doing is gaining momentum, and why we have a queue of people lined up to compete, when offering money and begging people won't get competitors to their events. He's got nothing to fall back on, and he's trying to figure out how to pay the bills and support his wife and kid/s when he's too beat up to joust any more.

This is the #1 reason I got off the faire circuit as a jouster. I realized that I would end up broken, bashed, broke and with nowhere to live. I noticed the only people who ended up stable at the end of the game were those who owned their own companies. I'm glad I got out when I did, and made a life instead of "making it through the winter" to the next season. This is a very astute observation Gwen, and I bet you're dead on.