The Armour Archive

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:41 pm**

You know you've had the conversation in the past, right?

The one with the person that just doesn't get why you do Fighting? The person that actively denegrates fighting, espically to new people?

Doesn't that piss you off? How do you handle it? Don't just tell me to ignore them either. While most folks aren't like this, there are people in the SCA for whatever reason that go out of thier way to be rude and dismissive of Heavy fighting.

Any horror stories?

(Yes, i'm really, really bored at work today...)
Byram

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http://bdeb.diaryland.com/

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:51 pm**

Tell them that only by venting your pent-up aggression through fighting keeps you from kicking their ass.

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:57 pm**

What is worse is fighters who just don't get fighting for the same reasons you do.

I have recently had a run-in with a group of fighters in Caid who have a significantly different set of "rules" which they fight under than mine. Let us just say it made my last six months (my reign) absolutely miserable.

Trust me- it is much worse when denegrating words about fighting come from either people you respect or people who you thought were brother/sister warriors than from someone who is just "wallpaper."

Alaric

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:04 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by DukeAlaric:

Trust me- it is much worse when denegrating words about fighting come from either people you respect or people who you thought were brother/sister warriors than from someone who is just "wallpaper."

Alaric<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Har!

Christian calls them "Colour"...like they are all the background players in his life...but that's my boy!
*tear*

:-)

byram

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:15 pm**

"Oh dear, don't start fighting! You'll never speak to us again!"
"Every time you put a helmet on, you lose 5 IQ points, and when you take it off, you only gain back 2."
"Dear, you'll never be pretty if you fight."

Some of the comments I got from friends when I started making the move to cross that invisible line between combatant and non-combatant.

The main complaint I heard was that fighters were isolated, cliquish, all off doing their own thing and ignoring the rest of the populace.

To combat that attitude? Sigh. Takes a lot of time out of armor. I make sure to circulate at least once through the non-combatants at our regular meetings, say hi, smile and nod at people, let them know I'm still their friend after introducing a lot of metal to my wardrobe. Sit down at the scribe's table when I need a rest. Stuff like that.

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:26 pm**

Granted, I'm not too active, and I've never been very high on the food chain...but I don't understand why there are people who don't fight, except for medical reasons.

How can you not love it?

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Lord William Ringlancer of Locksley

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard."
--Henry V

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:39 pm**

I've got several friends who play DnD and other types of Role-play. A couple are very large, norse looking viking som'bitches...

I have tried repeatedly to get these guys in armour, yet... they think I'm crazy for wanting to actually swordfight.

They prefer their dice.

It's unimaginable to me.

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Matthew Broadway
(SCA: Dante de la VallÃ©e)

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:00 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by BdeB:

The one with the person that just doesn't get why you do Fighting? The person that actively denigrates fighting, especially to new people?

Byram

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The guy who doesn't get why we fight, I don't understand. But then again I can't get through my thick head "fantasy football"... it's just dumb (to me).

About the person that actively denigrates fighting, this is all together different. Talk to them, away from the new people, about PR stuff, if a new person is on the fence about the SCA the last thing they need to hear is how we don't like each other or how we don't gate along with each other. Get your seneschal in on this if you need to.

Edited for spelling
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Ceddie

[This message has been edited by ceddie (edited 12-11-2003).]

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:10 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ceddie:

About the person that actively denigrates fighting, this is all together different. Talk to them, away from the new people, about PR stuff, if a new person is on the fence about the SCA the last thing they need to hear is how we don't like each other or how we don't gate along with each other. Get your seneschal in on this if you need to.

Edited for spelling[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not talking about a specific situation that i'm dealing with...i've had a lot of these experiences over the years tho... sometimes from group officers and even seneschals and chatelians. Demos and new people are a problem for this, certainly but so are business meetings and practices and events.

BTW, I love the "this keeps me from Killing you" line...

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:10 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by lyonnete:
"Oh dear, don't start fighting! You'll never speak to us again!"
"Every time you put a helmet on, you lose 5 IQ points, and when you take it off, you only gain back 2."
"Dear, you'll never be pretty if you fight."

Some of the comments I got from friends when I started making the move to cross that invisible line between combatant and non-combatant.

The main complaint I heard was that fighters were isolated, cliquish, all off doing their own thing and ignoring the rest of the populace.

To combat that attitude? Sigh. Takes a lot of time out of armor. I make sure to circulate at least once through the non-combatants at our regular meetings, say hi, smile and nod at people, let them know I'm still their friend after introducing a lot of metal to my wardrobe. Sit down at the scribe's table when I need a rest. Stuff like that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lyonnete,
How long were you in the SCA before you started to fight?
As a lady who fights how are you treated by the other fighters?
My wife also fights but she has been dong it for so long that she is 'just one of the guys'.
BTW It sounds like your on the right path.

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Ceddie

[This message has been edited by ceddie (edited 12-11-2003).]

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:20 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by BdeB:
 sometimes from group officers and even seneschals and chatelians. Demos and new people are a problem for this, certainly but so are business meetings and practices and events.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Officers should know better! It's also harder to deal with without coming off surly but that may be what they need, someone to tell them to shut their pie-hole!

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Ceddie

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:17 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ceddie:

My wife also fights but she has been dong it for so long that she is 'just one of the guys'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi, I've been fighting since 1978 or so, but I had a break for a few years due to injury, then having babies. During that break I almost immediately became "wallpaper", even with some of the guys _I TRAINED_ and could always kick their butts. So even after fighting heavily in the tournament curcuit and wars for over 15 yrs, I noticed an EXTREME attitude change and moreso from the newer fighters who didn't know me "back then".

We didn't do much SCA during that time, because it just wasn't much fun for me to sit around watching toddlers at an event. I'm really not that good at arts or politics chatting, even though I'm a Laurel :-)

.

One of the things I do notice with many male fighters, is that they will often introduce all the fighter guys to a new person using full titles, and either the ladies are just ignored in the introductions, or just introduced with first names "Janet, John's lady", when "Janet" may be "Countess Janet, Mistress of the Laurel" and the introducer knows that quite well.

There is some excuse when an introducer doesn't know their names, but then the other fighters need to interject for the ladies and be sure to introduce them properly. The unfortunately side is that many of us fighters know each others names, but we don't necessarily know the non-fighters names. But in introductions or discussions, that can be remedied to some degree by making sure you are attentive and ask.

I find a good comraderie with other lady fighters for the most part. I have two female Squires (Adria) who are basically man-at-arms/students in the SCA.

I have much more fun fighting at an SCA event, than not fighting, though its not so bad if I marshal. What is funny is that sometimes I have more fun at Adrian events when not fighting. Weird. Slightly different culture though.

Juliana

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:25 pm**

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lyonnete:
"Dear, you'll never be pretty if you fight."

Lyonette,

My lady does not fight in the SCA, but when she fights German longsword, It Is Pretty and terrifying all in one action. Do it for you, and no one else.

Regards, Jon

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:58 pm**

Originally posted by lyonnete:
"Dear, you'll never be pretty if you fight."

I must admit that my hands are pretty scarred up, mostly knuckles... but beauty fades anyway whether you fight or not... What is funny is that women who fight tend to be in a position to meet and get to know more men. Also many men find a lot of beauty in women who fight.

I always made a point of dressing in pretty dresses when not fighting, but the backlash to that is that some people will assume you are not a serious fighter if you don't look "manly" all the time.

Juliana

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:13 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by FrauHirsch:
Also many men find a lot of beauty in women who fight.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You just said a mouth full there! Personally, there is something truly beautiful about a lady who knows how to use that stick of rattan in her hand. It truly is lovely.

Back to the topic at hand. Personally, I've never really encountered that mindset. However, I'm from a fighting shire. For years, you were either a fighter or you were there to cheer for our fighters. It was that simple. A&S and other things were always more of an issue here (and to some extent still are, but I'm trying to change that).

However, this thread did make me realize that most of the people that I know are either fighters, or the significant others of fighters. I may know the names for some without any link to fighting, but for the most part, I don't really KNOW them. Mostly it's been a lack of contact. I'm fighting while other stuff is going on. I guess I'll need to figure out a way to fix that.

Bran

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Courage is not the absence of fear, it's the ability to overcome it.

Authenticity Pledge can be found at http://www.kylosa.com/Pledge

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:58 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by FrauHirsch:

Originally posted by lyonnete:
"Dear, you'll never be pretty if you fight."

Also many men find a lot of beauty in women who fight.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Both my Lady and very dear Ex are lady fighters. I defy you to find anything sexier. They are two of the most beautiful women I know. There is a special bond that is shared in combat, even SCA combat, and to have your lover fight beside you...

*sigh*

As to not being taken seriously when they put on thier "girl" clothes, I have to say that has never been the case as i've noticed it. Here in Atlantia at least, we say Viva la Difference!

(ok, maybe not literally that...Stinking Cheese-eating Surrender Monkeys...)
;-)

Byram

Ack! I've hijacked my own thread! ;-)

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:18 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ringlancer:
Granted, I'm not too active, and I've never been very high on the food chain...but I don't understand why there are people who don't fight, except for medical reasons.

How can you not love it?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A while back, I had to step down from sword and board because of a medical issue. I had full support from my house. As time went by, I couldn't stand to not fight. So, this Estrella XX will be my first time back for a while. Because the medical issue will never go away, I will come back as a combat archer. In my Kingdom, we all fight heavy, so the danger is less then sword and board, but it is still there. The thing I have changed is my attitude, like knowing when to yield (or not), and my armor. I have more protection and because CA isn't allowed on all the fighting, it gives me time to rest.
All I could tell people is "I can't not fight". I would rather not play at all if I cannot fight.
So, screw the nay sayers.
Madok

[This message has been edited by Madok ap Gruffydd (edited 12-11-2003).]

Posted: **Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:44 pm**

There is a geographic group that I am intimately aware of that would fail to mention anything about fighters to the new members. The people who call corperate other official channels are handed off through the senseschalate to the local group who is often their first contact. I helped convince a friend of my to take a superior seneschal position to the group that was problematic (he was baronial seneschal, the problem lay in a canton). It took 8 years from start to finish, but as a result, the canton that refused to acknowledge fighters actually has in residence more fighters than the other cantons combined. A side benifit is the overall growth in population of both the barony and that canton from about 90 to over 120 in a few years. The canton grew from 10-15 to almost 40 if you count those in residence versus alliegance. The trick is to stay positive. I would introduce new people to the 'other side' and give them no warnings beyond the fact that they don't particularly like me socially. I would serve this warning to keep them from being classified as 'mine' before the original core of the canton got to know them.

My attitude towards the SCA is that the fighting is the flash and inspiration that brings most people into our society. The arts are what give us dimension and reality to what we are doing, and without service, nothing would be organized or advanced in our society.

If you have problems in your group, they can be easily solved with new people. Dilute the situation, most people can't be changed by others. Be polite and positive, and always work to better the society in all areas, not just the fighting. I can't recall how many dance practices and sewing workshops my wife and I have led....now its woodworking

Hope this helps,
Lothar

Posted: **Fri Dec 12, 2003 12:19 am**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Broadway:
I've got several friends who play DnD and other types of Role-play. A couple are very large, norse looking viking som'bitches...

I have tried repeatedly to get these guys in armour, yet... they think I'm crazy for wanting to actually swordfight.

They prefer their dice.

It's unimaginable to me.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ran into the same thing when I played rugby in college, the football players thought WE were nuts.
OHHHH, and if someone wonders wht I fight, I try to introduce them to my ex <snicker>

Posted: **Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:54 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Broadway:
I've got several friends who play DnD and other types of Role-play. A couple are very large, norse looking viking som'bitches...

I have tried repeatedly to get these guys in armour, yet... they think I'm crazy for wanting to actually swordfight.

They prefer their dice.

It's unimaginable to me.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've had exactly the same thing going on. I had been in an Amber role play group for about seven years. One guy is truly awesome at aikido....I couldn't hit him if he didn't want me to hit him. Another is in shape, thin and strong with a martial arts background and a scrapper besides.

Got them to one event, they watched Atlantian Northern War practice and thought I was a lunatic.

As an aside, my friend stole Count Thorbrandr for his Amber campaign. Yep, turns out T-bone is a son of Oberon.

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Lord William Ringlancer of Locksley

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard."
--Henry V

Posted: **Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:01 pm**

I wonder how many D&D campains have an "Evil Duke Logan" as the bad guy...

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Matthew Broadway
(SCA: Dante de la VallÃ©e)

Posted: **Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:36 pm**

Evil Duke Logan? Not me. However, I HAVE used more than one Knight of Meridies as NPC's. SCA names are a great source of names for characters

And since the SCA Knights already have a persona, I don't have to do to much to bring them into a game

Bran

Posted: **Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:46 pm**

As for what fighting does for your looks; most people find me far more attractive with my helmet on.

Cuan

Posted: **Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:02 pm**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Broadway:
I wonder how many D&D campains have an "Evil Duke Logan" as the bad guy...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't know about D&D but i've heard that there is a Wizards of the Coast Card Game that has "Logan Ebonwolfe" as a high level Thief Assasian Player Character....

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http://bdeb.diaryland.com/

Posted: **Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:35 am**

What i don't get is the people who have all their stff and never show up.

I mean their home, they have armor and they have a car why would you not fight?!?!

We have a few big gys with rigs ranging from awesome to just pretty good. 2 are pretty good one sed to be damn good, they never show up.

then there is the "why do you wear so much armour" crap.

Must..

not..

rant..

again..

Oh if i only had a good place to hide bodies.

Posted: **Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:34 am**

I had one drunk softball player wanted to know if he could hit me...with his bat. I said, Oh sure. If I can hit you with my stick. Oh by the way, mine weighs 'bout 50 oz., what does your bat weigh? And you might want to borrow your buddy the catcher's gear. He decided he was hungry and needed another beer...

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Sir Theodrik of Skane,
West, Mists, Blackwood Company
'Lude Fortier, Lude Juste, Nemini Damnum!'

Posted: **Sat Dec 13, 2003 12:20 pm**

Fortunately this is a mindset we don't have much here in coppertree. If you fight you fight. If you don't you don't. Not to mention the fact that I think every member of the chiv we have here are great people who are also into the arts it really helps. I love bladesmithing and armoring even more than I do fighting. I fight because I can do that at least once a week. Good exercise and anger control program.

And an officer who trys to turn someone away from fighting needs to be taken out of office immediately. Not because they are turning them from fighting but simply because they are restricting what people can do in that group and that goes against what an officer should be doing. They should help them find what they want to do and help them find a teacher for it.

Bjorn Swiftaxe
Castellain, Shire of Coppertree, AE

Posted: **Sun Dec 14, 2003 2:19 pm**

In our canton we've had several people over the years who really put off fighting to all new members and killed heavy weapons as a "canton-supported" activity. (Sir Arion and I have had practices for a long time whether "Canton-approved" or not, but it has gotten down to very small numbers at times. Let the naysayers try to tell a Knight and a Laurel we can't hold a practice at our own home and announce it on our own in the local publications. Too bad so sad.

One of the problems was the seneschal a few years ago and he just hated all heavies fighters and would push newbies into shinai (a Caidan phenominon). He would tell people not to come to practice as it was an "Unofficial" back yard practice and we were brutes who liked to hurt new people. It was an official practice, but what did they know? He had a lot of other more serious and offensive problems and ended up convicted in the only Court of Chivalry Caid has had in the last 14 yrs or so...

In any case, our fighting community has grown tremendously since he has been gone, yet I believe our group is well balanced. Out of 38 displays at the Arts Event in Calafia, 10 were from our canton Summergate and all but one were also fighters and also in our Company. We displayed armor, costumes, needlework, illumination, tools, woodturning, pyrography, woodwork, and other really cool items out for display.

The key is to be well-rounded. We don't get to fight without the support staff, so if there's a time you cannot fight, get your butt out and marshal, or herald or help with setting up lists fields, or whatever is needed. We wouldn't have beautiful tournaments without the arts and sciences. Someone has to make those things that create our period environment, costumes, armor, banners, furniture, period eating ware, music, etc.

While I am totally against dissing the support staff, I also have low tolerance for those dissing the fighters.. The biggest hot button for me is when I hear:

"Armored combat isn't fair/too brutal/too dangerous] because women can't do it."

When my husband hears this kind of thing, he gets great glee in pointing out that his wife has no problems kicking butts out there. (I am 5'2, 45, overweight, and asthmatic. There are days when I don't fight due to asthma issues and I know I am not fighting now like when I was on the tourney circuit 14 yrs ago, but I try to keep myself to at least average fighter level. I love my husband :-)

Obviously being 45 and fighting since 19 is going to give me certain muscle memory and combat sense that a person starting out at 45 isn't going to have right away, but its still a case in point that fighting is not the sole purview of the healthy young athletic man.

I authorized a man at 69. He was still fighting occasionally at 70.

-J

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