The Armour Archive

jester wrote:I'd rather pay more for a Paul Binns and go through the approval process (which might be easier given the vast amount of experimental data available from the European groups) and have a sword that looks like an arming sword. Not that I don't really appreciate all the effort y'all have put into helping me find an acceptable alternative, I do.

Excellent, its always nice to see new blades approved. Do you have a link to these Paul Binns weapons?

I'll caution you that getting a new blade approved, at least in 2006 when I went through it, involved sending samples to the SRM and allowing him to deliberately break one, as well as a test period with frequent reporting. Its not bad a a manufacturer to send a few that are "seconds" or have cosmetic blemishes... but as a consumer for a first time blade, you're stuck buying at least 2 blades and sending one off to its death.

I would very much like to do C&T. I recently authed in all the rapier forms, but there was no C&T in our area. As I've been doing more WMA stuff recently, I am looking at modifying my faceplate for my SCA helm (not the grill) to have a perf plate insert. So, if it ever does become more mainstream in the SCA I'll be waiting with bells on.

Marco-borromei wrote:

jester wrote:I'd rather pay more for a Paul Binns and go through the approval process (which might be easier given the vast amount of experimental data available from the European groups) and have a sword that looks like an arming sword. Not that I don't really appreciate all the effort y'all have put into helping me find an acceptable alternative, I do.

Excellent, its always nice to see new blades approved. Do you have a link to these Paul Binns weapons?

I'll caution you that getting a new blade approved, at least in 2006 when I went through it, involved sending samples to the SRM and allowing him to deliberately break one, as well as a test period with frequent reporting. Its not bad a a manufacturer to send a few that are "seconds" or have cosmetic blemishes... but as a consumer for a first time blade, you're stuck buying at least 2 blades and sending one off to its death.

Unless Paul's interested in expanding his market. I'll e-mail him and ask if he'd be willing to send a couple of blades for testing if I agreed to buy two additional blades for my own use. If he says no I'm no worse off than I was before.

You can see his swords in action on YouTube by searching for Hammaborg. He also has a website: http://www.paul-binns-swords.co.uk/Index.htm

I've talked to the DSEM Rapier, since he's local to me. He's open to getting the Hanwei Tinker and 5th gen arming swords approved (and the tinker longswords...). What he wants is people to go to their KRMs and ask to get experiments started in the kingdoms. (Assuming the blades pass the flex test) He wants to hear lots of feedback before he issues a ruling on the different blades.

As far as I know, he's also not looking at the older very time intensive process that Marco had to go through for MKA, but wants to make the process a bit quicker and with less of an up front cost for those who want weapons approved (i.e. if we wanted to get say... the arms and armor single hander approved, we wouldn't have to buy 2: one for me, and one for the DSEMR).

So get to your KRMs and start asking. He's quite open to approving the experiments. I'd love to see the Tinker single handers (They're experimental in the West), the 5th gen Hanwei arming swords, or the Arms and Armor feders approved.

That's great news!

Regarding historical arming swords, did any variants of them survive past the 15th century? I'm curious about civilian self-defense swords used between the era of the arming sword and that of the rapier, especially by lower-class people. According to the Osprey Border Reivers book and a thread on MyArmoury or SwordForum, there was a one-handed, short, civilian sword called a whinger used in 16th-century Lowland Scotland (and England, too, I presume). My SCA persona is a Scottish Borderer in the first half of the 16th century, and if I ever did C&T, I'd like to have something like a whinger.

On the subject of changes in armor requirements for Cut and Thrust, I suppose the most likely change would be disallowing fencing masks. That might be good in the long run, and not just for safety. An increased demand for helmets with perf plate faces might prompt many more SCA armorers to offer such things routinely, in a wide range of prices, which in turn would attract more fencers and heavy fighters to Cut and Thrust.

So, if it ever does become more mainstream in the SCA I'll be waiting with bells on.

You'll never sneak up on anyone in the Woods Battle like that.



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LOGOS wrote:I was in that list as well, so we must have fought. Both the knights I fought comported themselves well as I recall and I had a real fight on my hands with both. I also recall that both were models of chivalry, unlike a couple of other people I faced . But, to your point, being unarmored can really make a difference in your outlook, and yes, there are some skilled scholars and combatants in C&T. I've had my head handed to me on occasion as well.

We did! You were the guy dressed in brown, English Civli War style, right? I was the very tall green Norman.

Yeah, when I thought about how thoroughly I got whipped, my bout with you particularly came to mind. I still recall how (frankly, overly) gracious you were regarding my total misunderstanding of the way the "2 out of 3 bouts and what to do with double kills" thing was run.

That tourney format still makes me scratch my head.

And yes, unarmored makes a huge difference to those of us used to years of built-up reflexes that "know" that any block is enough block. I lost several bouts because I minimally blocked, and the sword still got through to cut me.

Count Johnathan wrote:Here is an honest question that I am sure some will fume at me for but why have those so interested in C&T and Rapier and little interest in the sport that dictates our structure not started their own group?

It's not like these people are new to the Society. Their interest has developed inside the SCA. They didn't take up longsword and buckler, then go looking for a group to impose it on.

Marco-borromei wrote:Michael S:
Not all SCA kingdoms have a requirement that C&T candidates for authorization study a historical text. I am grateful to me predacessors and succesors in overseeing the program here that the Midrealm still does.

Frankly, I think this is silly in a competitive activity. Imagine trying to float that to the armored combat community!

At the Inaugural Pennsic Cut & Thrust Tourney, I drew a bout with some guy who, when introducing himself before the bout, asked me which styles I studied. I knew what he was asking, but nevertheless I replied something like "Oldcastle school, sword and shield, TJ high style polearm, that sort of stuff."

Then I flat snapped him in the head.

Corby de la Flamme wrote:

Marco-borromei wrote:Michael S:
Not all SCA kingdoms have a requirement that C&T candidates for authorization study a historical text. I am grateful to me predacessors and succesors in overseeing the program here that the Midrealm still does.

Frankly, I think this is silly in a competitive activity. Imagine trying to float that to the armored combat community!

At the Inaugural Pennsic Cut & Thrust Tourney, I drew a bout with some guy who, when introducing himself before the bout, asked me which styles I studied. I knew what he was asking, but nevertheless I replied something like "Oldcastle school, sword and shield, TJ high style polearm, that sort of stuff."

Then I flat snapped him in the head.

Study a historical text before authorization... not fight only in that style. After authorizing, do whatever you want as long as its within the rules.

Aside from the one example of an opponent who you beat, why do you feel its silly?

C & T legal arming sword

http://www.alcheminc.com/gothic.html

You need to order the broadsword blade, which is C & T legal. If you don't like the ring, he will take it off at no charge.

Corby de la Flamme wrote: We did! You were the guy dressed in brown, English Civli War style, right? I was the very tall green Norman.

Yeah, when I thought about how thoroughly I got whipped, my bout with you particularly came to mind. I still recall how (frankly, overly) gracious you were regarding my total misunderstanding of the way the "2 out of 3 bouts and what to do with double kills" thing was run.

Yep, that was me - the last hold out of the formerly legal early 17th c. (I was told it was to 1650 when I joined - I still have pics of cavaliers behind the thrones from the old days).

Well, you know, brother knights and all.

Maybe we'll get a chance to fight again sometime.

After reading this thread, I'm pretty happy I live in Drachenwald. I'm a knight and rattan is my preferred format but C&T is still something I'd like to start doing. And several knights in the area are considering the same. Not at all to replace heavy but to add something new to it. At longer events, you could easily do both. I think it enriches the game, gives us more variation.

However, the old antenna style fencing pretty much died here in Finland when C&T came along, and that I am ok with. That was not that period nor that exciting, wouldn't ban it but am pretty happy to see people embrace C&T instead.

I honestly think that the WoW and other antisocial media inventions are more dangerous to SCA than any hobbies within the Society.

(And the marriage to an outsider should be banned too. It seems to drag people away in huge numbers )

We haven't lost anyone to fencing here in DW and if fencing was banned we wouldn't gain anyone either. Those that are interested in both, do both, and those that only want to fence, would not go to heavy if fencing was banned. However, if heavy was banned, I (and quite a few other adrenaline junkies) would most likely start fencing to get the kicks somewhere

GrimR

Grimr Hvitulfsson Ulfhamr wrote:
However, the old antenna style fencing pretty much died here in Finland when C&T came along, and that I am ok with. That was not that period nor that exciting, wouldn't ban it but am pretty happy to see people embrace C&T instead.

Did they skip heavy rapier altogether in your kingdom?

Marco-borromei wrote:

Michael of Exton wrote:

Also depends if the standard for C&T combat remains to be "unarmoured". I'd also love for it to encourage armour as worn standards. That might not be for everyone...

Marco-Borromei wrote the above. I have to say I hope that if we do adopt an armoured C&T, harnessfechten if you will, we keep an unarmoured or blossfechten verison as well. I hope the armoured version wouldn't be arrmoured blossfechten, which would make Baby Jesus cry.

Actually, Johann ColdIron wrote that back a page.

Darned lack of edits......

I apologize for the misquote. I was thinking about melee and how C&T melee would let you simulate some of the big city brawls and feuds. You could have longswords, sideswords, rapiers, bucklers, rotellas, crossbows....It would be righteous fun.

Michael of Exton wrote:I apologize for the misquote. I was thinking about melee and how C&T melee would let you simulate some of the big city brawls and feuds. You could have longswords, sideswords, rapiers, bucklers, rotellas, crossbows....It would be righteous fun.

Don't forget longbows...somewhere I have an account of some London apprentices caught on the way to a fight armed with swords and a longbow.

Heavy rapier melee already allows bucklers and rotellas. In some kingdoms, rapier melee allows combat archery.

Dauyd wrote:

Grimr Hvitulfsson Ulfhamr wrote:
However, the old antenna style fencing pretty much died here in Finland when C&T came along, and that I am ok with. That was not that period nor that exciting, wouldn't ban it but am pretty happy to see people embrace C&T instead.

Did they skip heavy rapier altogether in your kingdom?

No - but it was never as widespread in the barony Aarnimetsä (mundanely Finland.) AFAIK rules still allow light fencing with foils, and heavy rapier - as well as C&T.

I refuse to fight light rapier. Will not pick one up... if my opponent in a tourney will only fight light, I will forfeit.

olaf haraldson wrote:I refuse to fight light rapier. Will not pick one up... if my opponent in a tourney will only fight light, I will forfeit.

Thankfully, I have not seen an epee or foil used at a tournament in over 4 years in the East, and they have been pretty much been phased out socially. Now if only we can get our KRM to legislate them out of the rules.

So you want something that some people enjoy to be eliminated? Interesting.

olaf haraldson wrote:I refuse to fight light rapier. Will not pick one up... if my opponent in a tourney will only fight light, I will forfeit.

Ditto

Count Johnathan wrote:So you want something that some people enjoy to be eliminated? Interesting.

When it's for safety reasons, sure. I'm pretty sure that's why they have been illegal in Atenveldt for a while.

Nope. I just won't fight against it. People can play with it all they want... but few do. Heavy rapier looks and feels better.

Count Johnathan wrote:So you want something that some people enjoy to be eliminated? Interesting.

Count Johnathan wrote:So you want something that some people enjoy to be eliminated? Interesting.

Epees and foils break easily and can kill, unlike rebated steel blades used in rapier and C&T.

Those kingdoms that have phased it out did it for safety reasons, and the rapier community is responding with approval because they are the ones that pushed for it in the first place.


This has nothing to do with banning an activity simply because it isn't liked.

If you didn't realize this is a safety concern across the Society, I can understand the confusion.

If you knew this, comparing the two issues is unethical and dishonest.

If you said this simply to irritate people or score some sort of point, I say you are better than this.

It was a joke. See the laughy smiley?

Ok then.

Count Johnathan wrote:It was a joke. See the laughy smiley?

Ok then.

Okay, yeah. Fair enough.

I've seen you say some harsh stuff and use that smiley face as a get-out-of-jail card before, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'll try not to use smileys when I am serious from now on to avoid any confusion.

I'm not that harsh. Depends on who I am talking to and the type of treatment they deserve.

I did note that it was unrealistc to think that rapier would be eliminated from the SCA at this point. I could see a splinter group forming though which isn't harsh at all IMO.

Isabella, are the foils and epees still legal for youth rapier in Atenveldt?

Atlantia went to heavy rapier before I joined. Rather than outlawing foils and epees, Atlantia went to heavy rapier "default." That meant, I gather from old posts on the Atlantian rapier e-list, that if two opponents in a tournament were both authorized in heavy rapier, then they were required to fight their bout with heavy rapiers. Heavy rapiers were eventually made the "standard" for melees. Epees have been phased out as adult training weapons; new adult fencers, like my husband, are trained directly on heavy rapiers. When I authorized 3 years ago, I authorized in epee as well as heavy rapier because I was told that an epee authorization might be useful at some out-of-kingdom events. However, since epees aren't being used at any of the events I attend in my kingdom, I donated my epee to the youth fencing program, and I won't renew the epee authorization when my card expires next year.

Epees and foils are still legal (and required) for Atlantian youth rapier. Youth fencers may not use a heavy rapier until they're old enough to train as adults (I believe).

Isn't that completely counterintuitive according to the concerns of the adults over the light blades? Do youth combatants have more control or....what the hell is going on here?

I thought this was a safety concern across the Society but kids can use them?

See, no smiley.

Count Johnathan wrote:Isn't that completely counterintuitive according to the concerns of the adults over the light blades? Do youth combatants have more control or....what the hell is going on here?

I thought this was a safety concern across the Society but kids can use them?

I agree. Not safe for adults, but safe for kids? Either that's dangerous for the kids...or very insulting for the adults. "Yes, you are not safe enough to use children's toys."

-Aaron

Agreed.

That rule runs counter to the primary reason epees and foils are being phased out.

Can't help but wonder if this was a cost vs. safety thing, where some parent said "I can get my boy a foil for 60 bucks. A rapier blade is not only 3 times that, but it is too heavy for him! Are you gonna tell my boy he can't fence when he is a youth champion at his local fencing club?"

The answer should be yes, because we don't use modern fencing rules or techniques, but...

Aaron wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:Isn't that completely counterintuitive according to the concerns of the adults over the light blades? Do youth combatants have more control or....what the hell is going on here?

I thought this was a safety concern across the Society but kids can use them?

I agree. Not safe for adults, but safe for kids? Either that's dangerous for the kids...or very insulting for the adults. "Yes, you are not safe enough to use children's toys."

-Aaron

Either that, or kids just don't have the strength and mass to _BE_ dangerous with them.

but that brings it back down to an issue of control by the adults. Something us heavy fighters are often accused of not having enough of.