The Armour Archive

Actually, part of the issue is that the float goes one way and not the other. Most heavies don't care if a new person or a "crossover" hits them in an armored spot like their hands, or their knee. They just mention it, and point it out if it happens again.

If you were to grab my weapon, I'd just casually say, you can't do that. If you kicked me in the middle of a fight, I'd probably laugh and remind you that you can't do that either.

Fencers, in my experience, blow up immediately and freak out on you for doing something outside of their "norm." And by "norm" I mean you hit them harder or be more aggressive than than they are used to.

The fact that heavy fighters wear armor allows for much more slippage in certain areas than unarmored combatants have.

g-

I think the mindset Duke Alaric mentioned is very much present. I recently crossover from heavy to fencing to support the Kingdom even though the sport holds little to no interest for me. I was given a completely different authorization that normal. They also made a big deal of finding someone willing to fight a heavy crossover. I never used excessive force or was told anything was out of line, yet at every break in the auth my partner was swarmed as asked repeatedly and loudly if I was losing my cool, striking excessively, and seems disbelieving when he said I was being perfectly safe.

Dante, my experience regarding variant calibration in rapier is exactly the same as Duke Alaric's.

Also the perception that the heavy fighters are automatically "out of control". We've seen a number of complaints that seemed to swap the reality of "he hit me too often" but was then spread around as "He hit too hard". Luckily there were sometimes unbiased rapier fighters to rebut that.

I tried for years to support rapier in our canton, but decided I would no longer put any effort toward that at all. I have had too many people return to me frustrated and depressed. If anything, the fact that I still fight usually inspires others to try rattan who would normally think that rapier is their only option.

Rattan is fun! You don't have to be a superhero to make a difference in a melee. There is nothing as exhilerating as walking off the field sweaty and dirty knowing you contributed.

Some of the authorization sessions I've seen for rapier last over an hour and a half. I've seen heavy fighters go through the fighting part of the rapier authorization, and suddenly the paperwork can't be found to finish it off - and this happened more than once. I've seen people go to rapier practices for 6 mos steady to be told that they are just "not ready", even though they were perfectly safe. My own son, at 16.5 yrs old, was told in one 45 minute authorization session alternately that he was too aggressive/not aggressive enough (nothing regarding safety though), even though he had been fighting rapier for 2.5 yrs at that point. He said forget it, I'm fighting heavy and something else I won't repeat here. A heavy fighter who's rapier authorization had expired, went to reauthorize rapier. Fought for an hour. Was told he had perfect control, killed the one doing the authorization 9 out of 10, and then was told, no, he couldn't be reauthed unless they saw him fight a few more times. And to fight C&T, he'd have to be authorized an additional year, even though he'd already been authorized rapier for 4 yrs.

Its gate keeping pure and simple. I'm not saying that this doesn't happen in the rattan community, but I've never seen it locally. It may be just the opposite in some regions - and if so, that would be a reason why rapier is growing there and rattan is not.

Cedric - multiply that by 5 if they find out you fight rapier in another club...

So we say "hey hey! Come on out to armored practice. We don't care if you are good, just safe. Come play, Its fun!!"

Duke Alaric and Broadway, I haven't seen what you've seen, and my experiences are more like Dante's, but I've fought rapier only in northern Atlantia, and only for the last few years. There's considerable crossover up here between rapier and heavy. A number of the White Scarves and other senior fencers fight spear on the heavy field; some also fight sword and shield and have fought in recent Crown tournaments. A number of the fighters who fight primarily heavy also do rapier up here (Sir Roland, Count Vlad, Joselin d'Outremer, Sir Corby, Duke Ragnarr, Baron Siegfried, etc.). Most of the women fencers up here are fairly tough (and a few do spear and/or C&T).

I wonder if some of the "problem children" you've run across in Atlantian rapier are still playing rapier actively. I also suspect that those of us who've authorized since the switch to heavy rapier default may have different expectations of hits than those who gained their experience with epees.

FWIW, I never said my bad experiences were in Atlantia. In fact, most Atlantian fencers I have dealt with have been ok.

One of the poor experiences I had was virtually the same as that Cedric the tall mentioned, and guess what- it was in EXACTLY THE SAME PART OF THE COUNTRY. My former student Cameron, who I believe is now in the same household as Cedric had the same problems trying to authorize at an event one day. Although Cameron passed all same BS in his auth, from being told he was at first too timid, to then next being too aggressive, he was finally told he wouldn't authorize. As his rep and trainer, I went over to ask why, and I was told he wouldn't be allowed to fight that day.

I asked "IS HE SAFE." They said "YES, BUT..." Then before they could finish, I asked, "SO WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?" I got excuses from well, he was too aggressive, to which we agreed he was only after they told him he wasn't attacking enough. At every point they tried to find a reason to not auth him, but at every turn the question I asked was, "Is he safe?" Every time they answered, "Yes, but..." Eventually they stonewalled to the point where he just wasn't going to be allowed to fight that day, and if they had had their way, Duke Stephen, myself, and the other crossovers like Cecil wouldn't have been allowed to fight either, but we had legal gear and were already authorized.

Frankly it was a load of crap. There was other stuff that day that was a metric load full of it too, but we can talk about that later.

g-

The only time I've ever had anyone complain that I hit them to hard was legit. I skewered the guy in a melee much harder than I intended too.

DukeAlaric,

I've had a similiar experience fighing heavy. IMO authorization should be "Are they safe, to themselves and others." What you experienced was a horrible thing and I think it stinks in the worst way. But it sort of proves that we're all people, with problems on both sides of the fence. The grass is always greener over the septic tank.

-Aaron

I've had a similar bad experience watching a student go through a poorly one auth... its really dependent on the marshal. Some days you just get the worst marshal possible, or they're having a bad day. Its not exclusive to rapier either... I've watch it happen in rattan, CA, etc.

We're an all volunteer org... sometimes we get what we pay for. 99% of the marshal's I've met have been great, but that last 1% creates lasting memories like the two above.

Like most of the stories here... we're talking about <1% of the whole.

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:FWIW, I never said my bad experiences were in Atlantia. In fact, most Atlantian fencers I have dealt with have been ok.

This makes more sense, then, because I haven't lived in any kingdom but Atlantia. We have some goobs, but not too many overall. I've seen some stuff like you've described, but it has been 6-7 years since then.

Aaron wrote:Now I'm an entrenched heavy fighter. But if we had had fencing like we have now back in 1997 or 2000, I wouldn't have given heavy fighting a second look and have had steel in my hands instead (and less cost, lighter, etc...).

I think rapier, cut-and-thrust, combat archery and other stuff does impact the number of heavy fighters we have on the field. The monopoly is broken and now the heavy fighting community (that I'm firmly a part of) needs to compete for people along with the rapier, cut and thrust, combat archery fighters, etc...

The question is, how should we compete for these limited resources? What is the best method? Banning the other styles is straight out...the cow is out of the barn on that one.

Any ideas?

-Aaron

I think it's a terrible mistake to blame combat archery for the "epic-fail-heavy-fighter-participation-numbers-relative-to-the-total-population."
Instead, the SCA should admit that their policies are simply not working at anything besides maintaining a tiny fringe group and CHANGE their policies to increase participation and give veterans SOME motivation to help newbs more. Probably every male on the planet has fought with play swords as a kid. That's because it's awesome. The idea behind the SCA is pure gold "play with swords and armor AND bows." The SCA's implementation of that idea is just a sad failure.
So again, don't blame the people already playing for the lack of numbers.

shinyhalo wrote:
Instead, the SCA should admit that their policies are simply not working at anything besides maintaining a tiny fringe group and CHANGE their policies to increase participation and give veterans SOME motivation to help newbs more. Probably every male on the planet has fought with play swords as a kid. That's because it's awesome. The idea behind the SCA is pure gold "play with swords and armor AND bows." The SCA's implementation of that idea is just a sad failure.
So again, don't blame the people already playing for the lack of numbers.

In what way is the SCA's implementation a sad failure? What specific policies would you change that would improve the experience for everyone and make people flock to the SCA?

For those of you who mention such obvious marshallate failures, did you make a (semi)formal complaint, like to the KEM, so he could have a talk with his deputy for rapier?

Especially if you have strawberry leaves on your hat.

Marco-borromei wrote:I've had a similar bad experience watching a student go through a poorly one auth... its really dependent on the marshal. Some days you just get the worst marshal possible, or they're having a bad day. Its not exclusive to rapier either... I've watch it happen in rattan, CA, etc.

We're an all volunteer org... sometimes we get what we pay for. 99% of the marshal's I've met have been great, but that last 1% creates lasting memories like the two above.

Like most of the stories here... we're talking about <1% of the whole.

Darn those damned "1%ers"...ruining the fun for everyone else.

wow, talk about some serious crossover Authorization horror stories. For all intents and purposes I was a crossover (having last fenced 14 years prior). Attended exactly 2 practices and got my authorization from out of my region Marshals and fighting a kingdom Don at a local event.
Not sure why Heavy to Rapier is such a boogey man.

Angusm0628 wrote:wow, talk about some serious crossover Authorization horror stories. For all intents and purposes I was a crossover (having last fenced 14 years prior). Attended exactly 2 practices and got my authorization from out of my region Marshals and fighting a kingdom Don at a local event.
Not sure why Heavy to Rapier is such a boogey man.

Me neither...perhaps there are other unnamed, even unconscious, issues at work in all of these cases. The varying
quality of marshals, personal bias (in both directions ), regional/interkingdom issues, etc. Who knows...personally though I never experienced, or witnessed anything like these horror stories in my 18 odd years in the SCA.

Both people there with strawberry leaves, me and Duke Stephen, both tried to follow up. Since we are both out of Kingdom Dukes, we were stonewalled a bit. Also, the Rapier guys immediately tried to turn our issues into "we had complaints about both of you hitting too hard and not taking light enough" issues without hearing our own set of complaints. We asked why they were not followed up with on the field,and were told that the individuals were, "afraid of us because we were Dukes," so they were afraid to say anything.

Their explanation of why we hit too hard and didn't take light enough was because a "touch kill is 'good' because it would penetrate the skin," lead to another issue, especially after I pointed out the following rules:

4. ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF BLOWS

A. In judging blows, all fighters are presumed to be wearing common civil attire of the period, not armor.

B. Tourneys may be held which define areas of the body as if armored, and to what degree, so long as all the participants are made aware of these special conditions prior to the start of combat.

C. In rapier combat, blows will be counted as though they were struck with a real blade, extremely sharp on point and edge. Any blow that would have penetrated the skin shall be counted a good blow. Any blow that strikes a mask, helm or gorget shall be counted as though it struck flesh. Kingdoms shall not alter this standard.

and then demonstrated (with an immediate experiment that provided empirical evidence to the contrary of their point) that their interpretation was not only false, but actually in violation of Rule C where it says that, "Kingdoms shall not alter this standard." I told them they needed to re-read the rules and better understand them (I guess that didn't go over well with the regional rapier marshall who I was talking with). They immediately retreated and said, "Well, even though the rules here say 'to penetrate the skin', we play lighter. So that's how you have to play.'" I told them to re-write the rules to reflect and define that force level, then, because as I had clearly just demonstrated, a "touch" standard (and actually it was a bit more than a touch) on bare flesh did not penetrate as I had just proven, and therefore a "touch" on "common civil attire of the period" (which to me means multiple layers of clothing) would probably not even penetrate the clothing, let alone anything else. Soooooo, this issue did bump up the marshallate chain a bit, but I moved away before it all got resolved. It sounds like the same people in the same region are pulling the same crap though from what Cedric was saying.

In the 5 years or so I lived in the Central Region of the Mid, there was a clear and definitive rapier/heavy split. It was much worse in Indiana than Chicago though. In Chicago it was more of just a "separation", where in Indiana there were some genuine issues, and by issues I mean outright fighting and bad talking between the groups about one another at practices and events. This clearly spilled over into any area that they could get it to, as evinced by their "authorization procedures" for heavy crossovers and complaints about heavy fighters.

g-

On the other hand, as a counter example....I was authorized heavy (and this was still the time period when I fought heavy regularly enough to be known to a degree...even if it was known to be a mere speedbump on a tourney field) and cross authorized epee (Heavy rapier was still a secondary auth in Atlantia, and you had to have epee first, yes this was several years back).

The authorization was quick and smooth and the only thing I noticed that was even slightly a nod to the fact I was heavy authed was that the questioning about engagement and how to behave when dead went very quickly, as they assumed I knew what I was doing there. Yes, there was a question regarding the difference in heavy vs rapier calibration, but all it was was "Do you understand the difference in calibration?"

10 minutes and voila, I had my card. No noticeable anti heavy prejudice there at all.

Angusm0628 wrote:wow, talk about some serious crossover Authorization horror stories. For all intents and purposes I was a crossover (having last fenced 14 years prior). Attended exactly 2 practices and got my authorization from out of my region Marshals and fighting a kingdom Don at a local event.
Not sure why Heavy to Rapier is such a boogey man.

In some areas its NOT. I've probably been the auth marshal or partner for more crossover rapier auths than new fencer auths, and they rarely look any different.

I've started wonering, though... why do we do auths exactly as we do them? At least in the Midrealm, there's nothing in the rules that say HOW an auth must be done. the Society rapier manual says they have to happen, but its up to kingdoms to determine how.

Typical Midrealm rapier auths start with some questions to make sure they're read the rules [some marshals really over do it here] and then go in 4 or 5 rounds, with 1-2 minutes sparring and brief [20 second] marshal-partner huddles between to ask "How's calibration? See anything wrong?" the 4-5 rounds fought in an initial auth are:
Half speed, call blows but don't act
Full speed, call blows but don't act
Off hand, call blows but don't act
Legged, call blows but don't act
"Real" fight, call blows AND act them out

The auths which last the longest are total novices who seem afraid to actually fight, folks who simply need more practice to feel comfortable doing a dangerous martial art. Soemtimes they just stand there in the first round, frozen in a guard, not sure what to do until I headbut their sword. I tell those folks right off "If you don't start DOing something, I won't have any way of knowing your safe and passing you."

With cross over combatants, I've skipped the half speed round before. They've been involfed in another dangerous martial art and most seem to have already gotten over that fear of hitting people part, so the MORE they fight, the easier it is for me to gather data and say "Oh, you're safe."

Later auths typically have only one or two questions about the secondary weapon [can you hit me with that parry device?] and 1-2 minutes of sparring.

The ONLY two ways to fail an auth, I tell everyone before they start, are:
[a] be unsafe - hit a marshal or spectator, injure your opponent, demonstrate disregard for the rules
[b] not DO enough to pass - if you just stand there, I won't have enough data to pass you... stab me, call out when I stab you, etc...

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:
Their explanation of why we hit too hard and didn't take light enough was because a "touch kill is 'good' because it would penetrate the skin," lead to another issue, especially after I pointed out the following rules:

4. ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF BLOWS

A. In judging blows, all fighters are presumed to be wearing common civil attire of the period, not armor.

B. Tourneys may be held which define areas of the body as if armored, and to what degree, so long as all the participants are made aware of these special conditions prior to the start of combat.

C. In rapier combat, blows will be counted as though they were struck with a real blade, extremely sharp on point and edge. Any blow that would have penetrated the skin shall be counted a good blow. Any blow that strikes a mask, helm or gorget shall be counted as though it struck flesh. Kingdoms shall not alter this standard.

and then demonstrated (with an immediate experiment that provided empirical evidence to the contrary of their point) that their interpretation was not only false, but actually in violation of Rule C where it says that, "Kingdoms shall not alter this standard." I told them they needed to re-read the rules and better understand them (I guess that didn't go over well with the regional rapier marshall who I was talking with). They immediately retreated and said, "Well, even though the rules here say 'to penetrate the skin', we play lighter. So that's how you have to play.'" I told them to re-write the rules to reflect and define that force level, then, because as I had clearly just demonstrated, a "touch" standard (and actually it was a bit more than a touch) on bare flesh did not penetrate as I had just proven, and therefore a "touch" on "common civil attire of the period" (which to me means multiple layers of clothing) would probably not even penetrate the clothing, let alone anything else. Soooooo, this issue did bump up the marshallate chain a bit, but I moved away before it all got resolved. It sounds like the same people in the same region are pulling the same crap though from what Cedric was saying.

2 points-

1. That calibration standard has been pretty well researched. Don Tivar of Ansteorra did some expirementing a while back with a hog carcass and a linen shirt. It takes only 3 pounds of pressure to break through the shirt and skin, and after that the force needed is almost zero. For comparison, most rapiers are in the area of 2 1/2 pounds, and take about 4-5 pounds of force before the blade even bends (obviously, many variables on that last one). Basically, if you felt it, it's good.

2. From your description, it sounds to me like you simply refused to follow the rules of the list, and wanted to throw a fit when they called you on it.

Chris G. wrote:

shinyhalo wrote:
Instead, the SCA should admit that their policies are simply not working at anything besides maintaining a tiny fringe group and CHANGE their policies to increase participation and give veterans SOME motivation to help newbs more. Probably every male on the planet has fought with play swords as a kid. That's because it's awesome. The idea behind the SCA is pure gold "play with swords and armor AND bows." The SCA's implementation of that idea is just a sad failure.
So again, don't blame the people already playing for the lack of numbers.

In what way is the SCA's implementation a sad failure? What specific policies would you change that would improve the experience for everyone and make people flock to the SCA?

It's a sad failure because of the numbers. How do you go from "nearly every kid in the world playing this type of game" to: Example: a fighter practice with 3-6 fighters showing up in a region with a population of 180,000 (and 3 huge military bases full of the most likely demographic)?

What would I change?
1. Get rid of all subjective/opinion based advancements/rewards/recognition/titles and replace them with clear cut "work done = reward" versions. Let SCA members do the work of submitting ideas for "this work = this reward." This won't eliminate veterans helping out of kindness, but it would add specific rewards that they could count on and that is a better motivator. It would also give more meaning to titles/honors etc. I've heard some rough words from newbs about royalty/knights and I think it stems from them not knowing exactly what those persons have done for others (if anything).

2. Focus the highest rewards/titles on people who help increase participation. ie. armor/weapon helpers, and to a much lesser degree, clothing helpers. I'd rename Crown List to Champion's List because really it's just martial prowess. The title and decision making power of King should go to someone who makes armor/weapons. On the other hand, it's nice to have a fighting king so for Crown List (held at the same time as Champion's List): 5 vs 5 bouts only. Leader + 4 men at arms that he/she outfitted with armor and weapons. This way, anyone who has the skill and motivation to outfit themselves + 4 others can win it. I'd suggest a "help make 2 armor sets and keep one set" policy. This also keeps equipment quality up since lousy gear = no win or injury. There are people who do this now, mostly out of generosity, but they aren't currently given the highest recognition/power and they should be.

3. I'd rename areas. I don't know exactly how, but I'd give the decision to whoever won the Crown List. Maybe keep the second part of the name but allow changing the first part. So if a mongol won they could change it to Khanate of Trimaris. It doesn't cost anything, but it's cool, personalized, and rewards the people who increase participation. It also motivates the losers to maximize their odds (read enter two+ teams) to reclaim it back to Kingdom of Trimaris.

4. While I'm at it, I'd create an official SCA forum where you need an active member number to register and post/vote. Then I'd let members vote on issues and change the .org into a true democracy instead of a representative-whatever it is now.

5. There are people who would help make armor/weapons, but have niether the time to be king nor skill to win a 5 vs 5. I'd reward them with the second highest "honors/titles." For quality assurance (since these don't have to fight) I'd say they have to bring the armored newbs to a war to get the reward. A newb with lousy gear won't get very excited about going to a war in it. These people would get to stand behind the king at court or something and get some visible item to wear making it obvious to anyone what exactly they have done for the SCA. It's also hard for newbs to be cruel to someone you know has helped others. Example: bronze shield+sword badge for bringing 4 armored peeps, silver for 8, gold for 16.

6. I'd probably install a harsh punishment for bad mouthing combat archery. I know heavy fighting is transformative and melee is coveted like the one ring, but for a lot of people it is physically impossible and they shouldn't be denied whatever lesser transformative combat they can do. At the same time I would always try to "hard code" scenarios to always allow heavies a route to flank around and beat the CAs if they are fast enough.

I realize now I have left out knights, but you get the gist of it. Exact work done = exact reward (instead of elevation by peers politics). Highest honors and decision powers given to those who increase numbers via armor/weapons.

Edit: For quality assurance (since these don't have to WIN)

Dauyd wrote:
2 points-

1. That calibration standard has been pretty well researched. Don Tivar of Ansteorra did some expirementing a while back with a hog carcass and a linen shirt. It takes only 3 pounds of pressure to break through the shirt and skin, and after that the force needed is almost zero. For comparison, most rapiers are in the area of 2 1/2 pounds, and take about 4-5 pounds of force before the blade even bends (obviously, many variables on that last one). Basically, if you felt it, it's good.

2. From your description, it sounds to me like you simply refused to follow the rules of the list, and wanted to throw a fit when they called you on it.

No, I have to disagree.

Take a sharp pointed blade (not exacto blade sharp but a nice real point on it) and "touch" your bare arm with it a few times. "Touches" don't do anything. Up the pressure a bit, it still won't break the skin. Put a few layers of wool (effectively period clothing) over some meat. Hold the blade about 6-8" above the target and drop it. It won't penetrate the meat. Usually won't even penetrate the "clothing" all the way.

I know it doesn't take "much" but it is more than a "touch" and at least significant positive pressure. Trust me, not only do I understand and follow the rules of the list, but I really do understand the difference between a "touch" and a "hit". Do you?

Also, there is a reason why we use the "punch test" to check people's gear. Points don't just teleport through cloth. It takes pressure, more than a hit. In the case I am describing, the hits were literal "touches" and they would not have penetrated anything.

Sorry.

g-

shinyhalo wrote:

Chris G. wrote:

shinyhalo wrote:
Instead, the SCA should admit that their policies are simply not working at anything besides maintaining a tiny fringe group and CHANGE their policies to increase participation and give veterans SOME motivation to help newbs more. Probably every male on the planet has fought with play swords as a kid. That's because it's awesome. The idea behind the SCA is pure gold "play with swords and armor AND bows." The SCA's implementation of that idea is just a sad failure.
So again, don't blame the people already playing for the lack of numbers.

In what way is the SCA's implementation a sad failure? What specific policies would you change that would improve the experience for everyone and make people flock to the SCA?

It's a sad failure because of the numbers. How do you go from "nearly every kid in the world playing this type of game" to: Example: a fighter practice with 3-6 fighters showing up in a region with a population of 180,000 (and 3 huge military bases full of the most likely demographic)?

What would I change?
1. Get rid of all subjective/opinion based advancements/rewards/recognition/titles and replace them with clear cut "work done = reward" versions. Let SCA members do the work of submitting ideas for "this work = this reward." This won't eliminate veterans helping out of kindness, but it would add specific rewards that they could count on and that is a better motivator. It would also give more meaning to titles/honors etc. I've heard some rough words from newbs about royalty/knights and I think it stems from them not knowing exactly what those persons have done for others (if anything).

2. Focus the highest rewards/titles on people who help increase participation. ie. armor/weapon helpers, and to a much lesser degree, clothing helpers. I'd rename Crown List to Champion's List because really it's just martial prowess. The title and decision making power of King should go to someone who makes armor/weapons. On the other hand, it's nice to have a fighting king so for Crown List (held at the same time as Champion's List): 5 vs 5 bouts only. Leader + 4 men at arms that he/she outfitted with armor and weapons. This way, anyone who has the skill and motivation to outfit themselves + 4 others can win it. I'd suggest a "help make 2 armor sets and keep one set" policy. This also keeps equipment quality up since lousy gear = no win or injury. There are people who do this now, mostly out of generosity, but they aren't currently given the highest recognition/power and they should be.

3. I'd rename areas. I don't know exactly how, but I'd give the decision to whoever won the Crown List. Maybe keep the second part of the name but allow changing the first part. So if a mongol won they could change it to Khanate of Trimaris. It doesn't cost anything, but it's cool, personalized, and rewards the people who increase participation. It also motivates the losers to maximize their odds (read enter two+ teams) to reclaim it back to Kingdom of Trimaris.

4. While I'm at it, I'd create an official SCA forum where you need an active member number to register and post/vote. Then I'd let members vote on issues and change the .org into a true democracy instead of a representative-whatever it is now.

5. There are people who would help make armor/weapons, but have niether the time to be king nor skill to win a 5 vs 5. I'd reward them with the second highest "honors/titles." For quality assurance (since these don't have to fight) I'd say they have to bring the armored newbs to a war to get the reward. A newb with lousy gear won't get very excited about going to a war in it. These people would get to stand behind the king at court or something and get some visible item to wear making it obvious to anyone what exactly they have done for the SCA. It's also hard for newbs to be cruel to someone you know has helped others. Example: bronze shield+sword badge for bringing 4 armored peeps, silver for 8, gold for 16.

6. I'd probably install a harsh punishment for bad mouthing combat archery. I know heavy fighting is transformative and melee is coveted like the one ring, but for a lot of people it is physically impossible and they shouldn't be denied whatever lesser transformative combat they can do. At the same time I would always try to "hard code" scenarios to always allow heavies a route to flank around and beat the CAs if they are fast enough.

I realize now I have left out knights, but you get the gist of it. Exact work done = exact reward (instead of elevation by peers politics). Highest honors and decision powers given to those who increase numbers via armor/weapons.

Sounds like you should play Sabratact: http://www.sabratact.com/

Also, until the issues (from safety to balance) with combat archery are fixed, people should complain about it. Squeaky wheels get oiled.

g-

Marco-borromei wrote:
Typical Midrealm rapier auths start with some questions to make sure they're read the rules [some marshals really over do it here] and then go in 4 or 5 rounds, with 1-2 minutes sparring and brief [20 second] marshal-partner huddles between to ask "How's calibration? See anything wrong?" the 4-5 rounds fought in an initial auth are:
Half speed, call blows but don't act
Full speed, call blows but don't act
Off hand, call blows but don't act
Legged, call blows but don't act
"Real" fight, call blows AND act them out

MY basic format for auths is:

Prior to fighting, the Q&A session, starting with "have you read and do you understand the Northshield Rapier Handbook", and a discussion of DFB, etc. Then, they start the actual bouts:

1. full speed, call blows but don't act them out (holler "good arm" or "good to the chest", etc- but keep fighting)
2. Same as 1, but have the auth partner press hard- I'm looking to see if they can stay controlled when lizard brain kicks in
3. Same as 1, but have the auth partner lay back to see if the new fighter can attack safely (I often skip this if I already saw this in the earlier rounds)
4. Same as 1, but both fight offhand.
5. New fighter legged, partner standing
6. Partner legged, new guy standing
7. Tournament bout- act out blows.

It really depends on what I'm seeing, though. I'll often tell the auth partner that I'll give them a signal in the first round to start pressing, so that gets combined. I've skipped rounds altogether if I feel comfortable with what I've already seen, and I've added rounds if I'm not seeing what I need to. I've even stopped an auth in the middle and had the person go do pickups with somebody else if I get a sense that they are just too nervous to perform in the auth, or found a different partner if it seems like the partner is making them too nervous (I've seen it a few times where the auth partner was a WS, and they froze up- but I get them a partner that doesn't have the bling and suddenly they are fine). I've even gone so far as to stop an auth, explain that I need to see something, and given a quick lesson before re-starting the auth.

As far as length of the rounds, it all depends. I'll let it go until I see what I'm looking for. Typically, it isn't more than a minute or so. The first round is usually the longest, because that is where I'm looking for the weaknesses that need to be explored further in the next rounds.

Ab out the only adjustments I will make for a crossover is that I make sure to do Round 2, and watch it more carefully than I might with somebody else. Often, the other rounds are shorter or skipped altogether because I know that they are comfortable with fighting in general.

Secondary auths are a lot simpler. A Q&A session, followed by a regular round. If they seem obviously competent, I've passed them with one short round, while other have gone longer.


I HATE having to fail people, and I'll go to great lengths to give them every opportunity to show me what I need to see- but I do have to see it.

Ironically, the biggest fail I ever saw in an auth was the one where I realized I was watching the auth PARTNER morethan the person doing the auth. After he hit the new guy 3 times with his rigid parry (once immediately after I warned him about it), I ended up pulling his rigid parry auth for the rest of the weekend.

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:

Dauyd wrote:
2 points-

1. That calibration standard has been pretty well researched. Don Tivar of Ansteorra did some expirementing a while back with a hog carcass and a linen shirt. It takes only 3 pounds of pressure to break through the shirt and skin, and after that the force needed is almost zero. For comparison, most rapiers are in the area of 2 1/2 pounds, and take about 4-5 pounds of force before the blade even bends (obviously, many variables on that last one). Basically, if you felt it, it's good.

2. From your description, it sounds to me like you simply refused to follow the rules of the list, and wanted to throw a fit when they called you on it.

No, I have to disagree.

Take a sharp pointed blade (not exacto blade sharp but a nice real point on it) and "touch" your bare arm with it a few times. "Touches" don't do anything. Up the pressure a bit, it still won't break the skin. Put a few layers of wool (effectively period clothing) over some meat. Hold the blade about 6-8" above the target and drop it. It won't penetrate the meat. Usually won't even penetrate the "clothing" all the way.

I know it doesn't take "much" but it is more than a "touch" and at least significant positive pressure. Trust me, not only do I understand and follow the rules of the list, but I really do understand the difference between a "touch" and a "hit". Do you?

Also, there is a reason why we use the "punch test" to check people's gear. Points don't just teleport through cloth. It takes pressure, more than a hit. In the case I am describing, the hits were literal "touches" and they would not have penetrated anything.

Sorry.

g-

Ironically, given the stated intent of the Society's corporate entity, we tend to fall down a lot on education. We don't back up a lot of our assumptions with facts based on published experimentation and the Society, in my experience and opinion, tends to discourage experimentation in the combat arts (while being quite happy to adopt changes after experimentation has been done outside of the Society).

Wow. I authorized at Val Day in the Mid a couple months back and got/felt none of this "trouble". It was fast, fun and got done in less than 10 minutes. I even authed in some advanced forms because the marshal felt I was more capable than just the primary.

I've found that if you stow an attitude, and show some respect for a style not your mainstay it goes a long way. YMMV

Leo Medii wrote:Wow. I authorized at Val Day in the Mid a couple months back and got/felt none of this "trouble". It was fast, fun and got done in less than 10 minutes. I even authed in some advanced forms because the marshal felt I was more capable than just the primary.

I've found that if you stow an attitude, and show some respect for a style not your mainstay it goes a long way. YMMV

Honestly, from talking to people from all over, I think it varies GREATLY by region. Even in heavy auths.. some are as simple as getting thrown in the shark tank with two marshals watching, and proving you aren't a hazard.. that's what mine have always been.. in other places, I've seen/heard it that you had to be "good".. IE.. if you couldn't kill the guy, you weren't authorizing, etc etc.

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:

Dauyd wrote:
2 points-

1. That calibration standard has been pretty well researched. Don Tivar of Ansteorra did some expirementing a while back with a hog carcass and a linen shirt. It takes only 3 pounds of pressure to break through the shirt and skin, and after that the force needed is almost zero. For comparison, most rapiers are in the area of 2 1/2 pounds, and take about 4-5 pounds of force before the blade even bends (obviously, many variables on that last one). Basically, if you felt it, it's good.

2. From your description, it sounds to me like you simply refused to follow the rules of the list, and wanted to throw a fit when they called you on it.

No, I have to disagree.

Take a sharp pointed blade (not exacto blade sharp but a nice real point on it) and "touch" your bare arm with it a few times. "Touches" don't do anything. Up the pressure a bit, it still won't break the skin. Put a few layers of wool (effectively period clothing) over some meat. Hold the blade about 6-8" above the target and drop it. It won't penetrate the meat. Usually won't even penetrate the "clothing" all the way.

I know it doesn't take "much" but it is more than a "touch" and at least significant positive pressure. Trust me, not only do I understand and follow the rules of the list, but I really do understand the difference between a "touch" and a "hit". Do you?

Also, there is a reason why we use the "punch test" to check people's gear. Points don't just teleport through cloth. It takes pressure, more than a hit. In the case I am describing, the hits were literal "touches" and they would not have penetrated anything.

Sorry.

g-

Well, I'm sure that in your mind your opinion carries more weight than the documented testing that has been the standard for over 20 years- and has been repeatedly demonstrated in classes ever since, but the standard is still the standard. Duke or not, you don't get to just re-write the rules on the fly.

Sorry.

I authed multiple styles as well, authing everything by Epee and C and T in one go. That first auth however took approximately 45 minutes. Just a standard basic safety auth. 45 minutes. I hate to say it but I am fairly sure the only reason it didn't take longer was because Duchess Elena (My knights Lady) and the local Baroness both got fed up and pushed the Marshall to admit the fact that I was safe. After that the Baroness took over the auth and the other style authorizations went by in a flash.

As a formerly authorized fencer (I let my auth expire), my experience with the fencing community is you can successfully complete an authorization when they are prepared to accept you into their ranks as a fencer. Knowledge of the lists and proper calibration does not matter one whit if they don't want you to be part of their club.

My experience with fencers is why I only fight heavies now.

Honestly, I think it is a regional thing. Here in Northshield, I've never seen anything even remotely like what many of you describe. There is some minor sniping back and forth, but it is usually tongue in cheek. Perhaps that is why the numbers here are about equal between the 2 disciplines, with a large portion of crossovers.

Dauyd wrote:

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:

Dauyd wrote:
2 points-

1. That calibration standard has been pretty well researched. Don Tivar of Ansteorra did some expirementing a while back with a hog carcass and a linen shirt. It takes only 3 pounds of pressure to break through the shirt and skin, and after that the force needed is almost zero. For comparison, most rapiers are in the area of 2 1/2 pounds, and take about 4-5 pounds of force before the blade even bends (obviously, many variables on that last one). Basically, if you felt it, it's good.

2. From your description, it sounds to me like you simply refused to follow the rules of the list, and wanted to throw a fit when they called you on it.

No, I have to disagree.

Take a sharp pointed blade (not exacto blade sharp but a nice real point on it) and "touch" your bare arm with it a few times. "Touches" don't do anything. Up the pressure a bit, it still won't break the skin. Put a few layers of wool (effectively period clothing) over some meat. Hold the blade about 6-8" above the target and drop it. It won't penetrate the meat. Usually won't even penetrate the "clothing" all the way.

I know it doesn't take "much" but it is more than a "touch" and at least significant positive pressure. Trust me, not only do I understand and follow the rules of the list, but I really do understand the difference between a "touch" and a "hit". Do you?

Also, there is a reason why we use the "punch test" to check people's gear. Points don't just teleport through cloth. It takes pressure, more than a hit. In the case I am describing, the hits were literal "touches" and they would not have penetrated anything.

Sorry.

g-

Well, I'm sure that in your mind your opinion carries more weight than the documented testing that has been the standard for over 20 years- and has been repeatedly demonstrated in classes ever since, but the standard is still the standard. Duke or not, you don't get to just re-write the rules on the fly.

Sorry.

Who's re-writing rules? Why does my being a Duke have anything to do with being able to read a set of rules, create a test for that scenario, and proving a standard or interpretation of those rules to be right or wrong.

I used to do special effects in LA, and am well aware of safety testing for a variety of reasons, and have to perform tests on many different outfits and stuff to make sure that actors and stunt people would be safe.

In this case, I presented a practical, and easy test and demonstrated in person empirically that the explanation of "touch" being good by the written standard was false.

From what it seems, you don't understand either rule as written, or how it related to the standard in practice. If there needs to be a difference, the rule should be re-written to reflect the standard, not something that is easily tested and proven wrong.

If you don't see that or just want to blindly follow an interpretation of a rule when there is clear evidence that it is incorrect, that's your choice.

g-

Dauyd wrote:

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:

Dauyd wrote:
2 points-

1. That calibration standard has been pretty well researched. Don Tivar of Ansteorra did some expirementing a while back with a hog carcass and a linen shirt. It takes only 3 pounds of pressure to break through the shirt and skin, and after that the force needed is almost zero. For comparison, most rapiers are in the area of 2 1/2 pounds, and take about 4-5 pounds of force before the blade even bends (obviously, many variables on that last one). Basically, if you felt it, it's good.

2. From your description, it sounds to me like you simply refused to follow the rules of the list, and wanted to throw a fit when they called you on it.

No, I have to disagree.

Take a sharp pointed blade (not exacto blade sharp but a nice real point on it) and "touch" your bare arm with it a few times. "Touches" don't do anything. Up the pressure a bit, it still won't break the skin. Put a few layers of wool (effectively period clothing) over some meat. Hold the blade about 6-8" above the target and drop it. It won't penetrate the meat. Usually won't even penetrate the "clothing" all the way.

I know it doesn't take "much" but it is more than a "touch" and at least significant positive pressure. Trust me, not only do I understand and follow the rules of the list, but I really do understand the difference between a "touch" and a "hit". Do you?

Also, there is a reason why we use the "punch test" to check people's gear. Points don't just teleport through cloth. It takes pressure, more than a hit. In the case I am describing, the hits were literal "touches" and they would not have penetrated anything.

Sorry.

g-

Well, I'm sure that in your mind your opinion carries more weight than the documented testing that has been the standard for over 20 years- and has been repeatedly demonstrated in classes ever since, but the standard is still the standard. Duke or not, you don't get to just re-write the rules on the fly.

Sorry.

What documented testing and where can I read it?

There are regional differences in the SCA, be it heavy fighting or otherwise.

I've lived in the East (twice, two different regions), An Tir, the West, Atlantia and the Outlands and I can say there are variations. But there are also variations going just down the road 100 miles or so. Northern regions of the East are different from Southern, as it is also in Atlantia. And the Barony of the Far West (Japan) does not fight exactly the same as California (where the West started).

I don't have good data for the Outlands due to my limited experience here so far. Graduate school is kicking my hindquarters and I've to the CHP exam coming up.

There should not be much regional differences in authorization or marshalling. They should be pretty uniform kingdom to kingdom and especially region to region IMO.

IMO it should be:

Authorization: Are you safe to you and others?

Marshalling: Are they safe to others and themselves?