Future of SCA fighting

[Aaron]

Duke Alaric doesn't let his crown blind him. He's a real person and while we disagree on many issues, I've enjoyed every talk. But I think he's "George" more than "Duke Alric".

-Aaron

[Tibbie Croser]

Duke Alaric, thank you for clarifying that at least some of your negative experiences were in other kingdoms. They didn't sound typical for Atlantia. I'd hate for you to be judging Atlantians by fencers in other kingdoms.

Authorizations here are usually run at events, just before the start of the day's fighting. There's an incentive for them not to take too long (but long enough to determine that the would-be fencer is safe and knows the rules).

Ewen, have your bad experiences been with fencers in Ponte Alto, in other parts of Atlantia, or in other kingdoms? I've found my fellow Atlantian fencers to be friendly and helpful, even though I'm not in any household or fighting unit.

[Alex Baird]

Take a sharp pointed blade (not exacto blade sharp but a nice real point on it) and "touch" your bare arm with it a few times. "Touches" don't do anything. Up the pressure a bit, it still won't break the skin. Put a few layers of wool (effectively period clothing) over some meat. Hold the blade about 6-8" above the target and drop it. It won't penetrate the meat. Usually won't even penetrate the "clothing" all the way.

Now, take that same blade, and accelerate it to combat speed, and try to stop it before it penetrates. "Touch" is subjective, and I didn't see what hit you that you felt insufficient, but I have done experiments like you describe, and felt absolutely no pressure feedback as my sharp point went right through wool, linen and wet rawhide. Going at speed, my blade typically went about 3-5" deep. The cloth offered slightly better protection against slicing cuts, and better than I expected against chopping style blows (no slicing motion).

Also, there is a reason why we use the "punch test" to check people's gear. Points don't just teleport through cloth. It takes pressure, more than a hit.

Yes, there is a reason we do them. Are you aware of what the punch test standards are? They use a flat rod 4mm in cross-section, with no point, to apply a specific newton force. It is dropped from 6" with 1kg of weight. The reason we do them is that it tests (theoretically) against penetration by the flat broken cross-section of a foil. I guarantee you that a sharp would go right through my commercial fencing jacket, because I've also poked an old one in curiosity...

[Dauyd]

What documented testing and where can I read it?

Google is failing me at finding Don Tivar's experiments, but there is documentation out there to corroborate:

http://moondragon.info/wiki/Combat_Anatomy

Using slow pressure, “with a very sharp knife, the amount of pressure needed to penetrate the skin of the torso varied between one half and three kilograms (1.1 to 6.6 lbs).” When the blade was moving at speeds simulating combat, however, “penetration occurred so readily that no reading was recorded upon the scale of the instrument.”

http://www.mindspring.com/~aedan/blowcall.htm

Synopsis of both:

It doesn't take much pressure with a sharp blade to penetrate skin, and when struck at speed, the pressure needed drops dramatically. Note that in the second link, it shows that it takes LESS force to penetrate the skin with a rapier than it takes to put a mere 2" bend in an electric foil. In other words, if you felt the blow, it most likely had plenty of force to have penetrated if it were a real blade.

[St. George]

To my point:

The converse is also true- as something moves more slowly it has less chance of penetrating. If something comes in as a "touch" and does not and never had the blow speed to penetrate, why would it be "good"?

g-

[Dauyd]

I suppose that if they were able to place the tip on you, and very slowly increase the pressure to less than the 3.5 pounds that it takes for a non-moving thrust, then technically you'd be justified in calling it "light". However, If they are able to hit you THAT slowly that the "higher" numbers come in (even the "High" numbers are in the 3-5 pound range), then you deserve to lose.

[Peikko]

Now mind you...this is just a little "love tap": http://www.youtube.com/user/janchodkiewicz#p/u/16/uMkGF3EqUjU

[St. George]

A rapier that is hitting at range and not moving quickly won't apply that much pressure is my "point".

[Corby de la Flamme]

I think the mindset Duke Alaric mentioned is very much present. I recently crossover from heavy to fencing to support the Kingdom even though the sport holds little to no interest for me. I was given a completely different authorization that normal. They also made a big deal of finding someone willing to fight a heavy crossover. I never used excessive force or was told anything was out of line, yet at every break in the auth my partner was swarmed as asked repeatedly and loudly if I was losing my cool, striking excessively, and seems disbelieving when he said I was being perfectly safe.

Were you dealing with seasoned, respected rapier marshals?

I have witnessed a wide variation in marshal ability over the years, in all disciplines. Thankfully, Atlantia has imposed much more stringent marshal training to cope with this.

What you describe sounds like a couple of local, low-experience, untraveled, goob marshals.

[Corby de la Flamme]

I've had a similiar experience fighing heavy. IMO authorization should be "Are they safe, to themselves and others."

I don't know what you specifically experienced or where it happened, but the Atlantian standard for all forms aside from weapon and shield is greater than simple safety. Since other forms are more likely to result in an injury either due to greater potential blow force (from two handed weapons) or greater chance of injury (from lack of a shield) non-shield users must demonstrate some actual skill with their weapons. Not just safety.

[Dauyd]

A rapier that is hitting at range and not moving quickly won't apply that much pressure is my "point".

Your "point" is off.

Not moving at all, it only needs 3 pounds. If it is moving (and, unless you are standing still letting the opponent gently lay the tip on you), then it drops from there. At speed, it is 1.5 pounds.

Even the 3 pounds isn't much at all. If you can feel it in the heat of a bout, then even the 3 pound threshold has most likely been met.

[St. George]

I guess we'll just have to disagree. You have your tests and experiences and I have mine.

A "touch" isn't quite enough to fulfill the nature of the rule with an average blade.

g-

[Dauyd]

We can agree to disagree, right up until you refuse to follow the rules of the list on the field. At that point, your opinion is irrelevant, because the rules and standards that are enforced on the field are different than your opinion.

[DavidTwynham]

Regarding calibration, it seems to me judging what would or what not have penetrated skin is something of a gray area, made more difficult by trying to make this judgement in the middle of a fight. What if, at the extreme end of your reach, you manage to just touch the edge of my hood enough, but not quite enough for me to feel the pressure from the hit. Would a hit like this actually penetrate my skin? What if, in the process of thrusting, your tip lands somewhat flat against me? There's a touch here, but would be unlikely to penetrate much, if at all.

Different kingdoms seem to interpret this differently and that just seems to be the way it is. In the West, our rules clarify this a little by stating that "Any blow with noticeable pressure in line with the attack is valid." Even then it can still be a gray area though.

[St. George]

Apparently you are choosing not to listen or see evidence in front of you.

Rules and standards are different things. Rules are what I read, follow and understand.

Standards are interpretations of rules. Many standards have a local or regional bias. In this case, the local bias was a "touch". In other regions of the SCA I have played in,and with different groups, this same supposed "standard" or interpretation was significantly different.

In direct reflection on the "touch" standard, and by "touch" I mean a literal tiny baby touch, when I demonstrated in public to the marshalls and others present that a "touch" with the type of blade in question did NOT penetrate my skin, and then also showed that hits of higher poer and speed did not either, I clearly demonstrated that more than a "touch" was required.

This was a fact that they agreed with.

The issue was that the "standard" of some locals was "any touch" even though "any touch" clearly does not meet the letter of the rule. I recommended a re-write of the rules to reflect a local standard.

The evidence you presented also shows that a "touch" DOES NOT PENETRATE THE SKIN. It takes some pressure. Not much, but some. We are all cognizant of that, and in fact likely are recognizing the same thing. Your version of a "touch" must be harder than what I am believing one to be (or experienced), because the the touches I am familiar with would not penetrate the skin. Yours, however, would.

Now, since the rules of the list state clearly that a good blow would penetrate the skin through period clothing, and the point of an agreed sharp weapon DID NOT PENETRATE, then how is my interpretation failing to live up to the rules of the list?

How is a "touch" in this case good?

In fact you are violating the rules of the list because you are changing the rule as presented in rule C, and creating a different level of valid shot acceptance.

It is not simply a touch. Feel free to explain your rationale as to how a "touch" can penetrate anything. A shot of significant power will penetrate. I suggest and my tests and experiences show that "touches" with blades of average sharpness fail to penetrate.

Prove my tests incorrect or invalid.

g-

[jester]

May I suggest you gentlemen try using a different word?

His Grace appears to be arguing that a blade that makes contact, and nothing else, does not penetrate and should not be accounted a good blow according to the rules of the list and common sense. He is not arguing that a great amount of force is needed, merely that something more than simple contact is required. And he is stating his experience that he fenced with people who took simple contact, expected opponents to take simple contact, and were upset when either expectation was not met.

Dauyd, if I'm reading your posts correctly, you believe His Grace is arguing that a blow must be stouter than the written standard and are arguing that less force than most people think is required to do damage with a sharp blade.

I think you're closer to agreeing than disagreeing.

[Dauyd]

Again- you can stand there and shout "but I'm right" all you want, but when you step on the field, you will follow the standards of that field.

Per the standards of the field, you are wrong. Period. You were wrong then, and that is why you were checked on it.

You can either follow the standards, or not follow them- but when you are checked for not doing so, crying about it years later on an internet forum is pointless.

Step on my field, and refuse to take shots because YOU have a different interpretation of the rules, and I'm gonna check you on it. Continue to refuse, and claim that you are "right", and I'll bounce you from the field- pointy hat or no pointy hat.

[Dauyd]

May I suggest you gentlemen try using a different word?

His Grace appears to be arguing that a blade that makes contact, and nothing else, does not penetrate and should not be accounted a good blow according to the rules of the list and common sense. He is not arguing that a great amount of force is needed, merely that something more than simple contact is required. And he is stating his experience that he fenced with people who took simple contact, expected opponents to take simple contact, and were upset when either expectation was not met.

Dauyd, if I'm reading your posts correctly, you believe His Grace is arguing that a blow must be stouter than the written standard and are arguing that less force than most people think is required to do damage with a sharp blade.

I think you're closer to agreeing than disagreeing.

Perhaps. I'll try a different tack-

If your opponent "touches" you with their tip with enough force that it can be felt through the several layers of cloth, especially when in the middle of a bout and the adrenaline dump that is happening at the time, then it is overwhelmingly likely that it hit with enough force to meet the standard.

Yes, the theoretical possibility exists, however unlikely, that it could "touch" with no force at all behind the shot- but in that case, you would never feel it through your clothing.

Thus, a "touch", if you can feel it, should be taken as a valid blow.

[St. George]

Dauyd,

What stick is currently up your ass?

Standard on the field and rules of the lists are two different things.

You are also incorrect to your statement "per standards on the field, you are wrong" because actually no, my standard and the one that the group I fought with was also on the field. To my knowledge no one at the beginning of the tournament said "all touches will be taken today." Nor during the tournament did anyone come over to me, HG Stephen, or the others with us and say "all touches will be taken today." As I recall we were all told to play nice and communicate with one another if there were issues. Someone did not, and raised a stink afterwards, and it wasn't me. When we were told of this other person's interpretation of a good blow, all the fighters I fenced with were surprised. Not just me. I chose to demonstrate why according to our interpretation and use of the rule that we might be right. Also something you might not realize is that the event was in OUR shire, not theirs. They were all visitors not us and should have at least understood our local standards (because there were 2 separate and distinct ones).

When asked at the beginning of a fight or authorization if you "understand the rules of the list" and you do, you say yes. Where I was from, and the people I fenced with had a clear understanding of that rule, and that is how we read and interpreted it, that a minor touch was not good, and it took some force or intent for the blow to be good.

The only reason "hats" came into question was because the woman in question felt scared of us
because we were "hats" and wouldn't talk to us on her own.

Many questions could have been settled if she had simply said something while the fighting was going on, but she did not, and instead chose along with others there to villainize all heavy fighters who tried to cross over- because that is what they wanted to do and continue to do).

"Step on my field, and refuse to take shots because YOU have a different interpretation of the rules, and I'm gonna check you on it. Continue to refuse, and claim that you are "right", and I'll bounce you from the field- pointy hat or no pointy hat."

I agree with this very statement- but only if you are the Marshall. I always play the game of the person I am fighting with, if they make the rules clear to me what they are playing.

g-

[Chris G.]

So your interpretation of the rules is that there is no such thing as a light blow in rapier combat?


As an aside, you seem awfully focused on the hat Alaric wears. Why do you keep adding the snide remarks like "pointy hat or no pointy hat"?

[Cedric Adolphus]

I severely doubt that a fighter of the skill and caliber of Duke Alaric is unable to measure the force of a blow through cloth. much less get distracted by the extremely low levels of adrenaline put out during a rapier bout.

[DavidTwynham]

...much less get distracted by the extremely low levels of adrenaline put out during a rapier bout.

Seriously?

[CiaranBlackrune]

Right or wrong, the attitude displayed by Dauyd is the common attitude I find among the rapier fighters. And it's this attitude that turns me off from rapier fighting.

I know that not all display this attitude but enough do that I don't want to play in that group. I have enough drama in my life without rapier emo drama.

I do, however, still enjoy watching other people fight rapier. Many of the Dons here in Caid are, to my untrained eyes, amazing.

[Cedric Adolphus]

@David

Poorly phrased, I have seen some truly skilled and intense rapier fights, no denying that. I simply posit that a man who can keep his cool and calm under the conditions of a heavy melee and judiciously recognize blows under those circumstances is certainly capable of judging the force he is receiving during a singles rapier bout during an auth. It is a less intense and much more controlled situation and Duke Alaric has been fighting longer than many society members have been alive. I am simply questioning Dauyd's assumption that his grace in incapable of judging proper calibration.

[DavidTwynham]

Thanks for the clarification, that makes more sense

[St. George]

...much less get distracted by the extremely low levels of adrenaline put out during a rapier bout.

Seriously?

Any fighter on the field might miss a shot. Me or Duke Stephen, or anyone from our group might have on that day, but SOMEONE should have said something right there so we could correct it on the field and move forward with good attitudes rather than someone walking off and continuing with their feeling that all heavies are bad, and have lingering issues after.

Also, I have no issue with someone telling me that all touches count nothing is light, I can play that way and do. What I have a problem with is someone calling the rules of the lists into play that clearly state something different. I travel all over the USA to fight, and deal with different conventions in different areas. Some I like more than others, but I enjoy the fight. I enjoy it even more when I know what to expect, or someone tells me what the local convention is before or during our bout (such as we don't hunt arms, or we don't move on our knees, or we take real light around here).

g-

[Dauyd]

Dauyd,

What stick is currently up your ass?

Honestly?

I have a serious pet peeve with people (not meaning just you, but I've seen it repeatedly) that have their interpretation of what the rules say, and insist that they are right- even when everybody else tells them differently. I've even seen people that enforce rules that are not there- because they feel it "should" be that way. It drives me crazy when I see it.

Now, what I read from your story (And this is just my interpretation, which may be off because of the limitations in the text format) is that you showed up to an event, started fighting, and the marshals approached you to say you were hitting too hard- citing the "touch" rule. You refused to accept what they said, because you interpret the rule differently than they do, and argued with the marshals on the field.

In my mind, what I'm hearing is "I'm right, and everybody else is wrong, so everybody else needs to change, because I'm right". Add the pointy hat into the picture and it makes my hackles rise even more.

Now, your last post does shed more light by adding more context. Being an event in your group does change things somewhat- but not completely. Possibly, your local group has raised calibrations above what the Kingdom's conventions are- but that is an issue that should be addressed with the Group Marshal, not with an individual fighter. On the other hand, it might have just been a butthead Marshal with HIS offbeat interpretation. (Honestly, I've seen that a whole lot more often than the idea of a whole group being that far out of whack).

I will apologize to you for being more aggressive than needed in my posts. I admit that it is my personal bias towards the "I came up with this interpretation, and everybody else needs to change to accommodate it" types that really raised my hackles, and further admit that I was attributing that attitude to you without real justification.

[Dauyd]

Right or wrong, the attitude displayed by Dauyd is the common attitude I find among the rapier fighters. And it's this attitude that turns me off from rapier fighting.

I know that not all display this attitude but enough do that I don't want to play in that group. I have enough drama in my life without rapier emo drama.

I do, however, still enjoy watching other people fight rapier. Many of the Dons here in Caid are, to my untrained eyes, amazing.

What attitude is that? The one where there rules are what they are?

[Blaine de Navarre]

This whole thread is making me want to find a like-minded opponent and do some HARD cut & thrust; I'll feel cheated if I don't curl up in a little ball and roll around on the grass at least once.

[Dauyd]

I am simply questioning Dauyd's assumption that his grace in incapable of judging proper calibration.

That is absolutely NOT my assumption by any means. What I said was that it would take a pressure higher than the force needed to penetrate in order to feel it. For ANYBODY to feel it- His Grace, myself, you, the girl down the street, ANYBODY.

[St. George]

Dauyd,

Thank you for the apology.

We had already fought all day. The issue was raised after the tourney was over. Nothing was said before or during. My issue was with people coming and raising a stink afterwards and interpreting a rule, again afterwards, that is very different from what the rule states. If they had wanted a touch convention for the day, this should have been made clear at the beginning of the day.

A second issue with one of our friends, Cameron, trying to authorize occurred on the same day. He was told he was "not aggressive enough" to authorize. The shots he did throw were "not excessive in any way." Yet, he was not allowed to play, even though we were clearly told that he was "safe."

And yes several of the Marshalls involved and some of the local rapier fighters (including the ones who literally would bad mouth heavy fighters and heavy fighting in front of us to everyone at practices) were just buttheads. In this area of Indiana there is a huge heavy vs rapier thing.

As to the rule itself, I really don't care, other than our interpretation is equally valid, and no differentiation was made at the beginning of the tourney, but yet we were hung out to dry afterwards because these individuals wanted to make examples of us so they and other fencers could say, "Look at the evil heavies," as I was told this by several friendly fencers.

g-

[Dauyd]

So your interpretation of the rules is that there is no such thing as a light blow in rapier combat?

Not just my interpretation- it is pretty much universally accepted in my experience, but yes.

As an aside, you seem awfully focused on the hat Alaric wears. Why do you keep adding the snide remarks like "pointy hat or no pointy hat"?

Because in my mind, when he mentioned the hat in his original story, I saw him as using his pointy hat in an attempt to cow the marshals, etc into doing things his way.

[Chris G.]

When I started practicing rapier in Atlantia, I was taught much like I was for rattan that "this is a light blow" and "this is a good blow". I could feel the light blow, so I would say at least back in 2003, the western part of Virginia had a different interpretation of the blow standard from what you believe is a universally held standard. I have also witnessed fighters call blows light in tournaments and melees at interkingdom events like Kingdom Crusades and Pennsic. This call was contrasted with calls like "cloth" by some of the same fighters calling blows "light" to indicate that the blow touched nothing solid. To me, this indicates a difference of opinion in your universally held standard.

[Cuan]

All disciplines have marshals that impose rules and standards that do not exist because all SCA disciplines are marshalled by volunteers and the skill sets and personalities of those volunteers differ greatly. I cross over to rapier when I have the opportunity (although it is rare) and in Atlantia I have been warmly welcomed - even when I got carried away and clubbed a guy with the croquet mallet I was parrying with in my left hand. That gentleman - and the marshals - were very understanding. In Atlantia, I know of no more dedicated, disciplined, or noble folk than the leaders of our order of the White Scarf. We have a White Scarf here because people like Alan, Gaerloch, Giacomo, Aedan, Ceridwen, Robert, Isabelle and countless others, set an example of service to kingdom that made us ashamed not to honor them as they deserved. I have fought by their side at Gulf Wars and Pennsic and they have always been careful to clue me in to the prevailing interkingdom conventions so as to protect me from enthusiasm and inexperience (still sorry I tackled Grif at Pennsic). I have never failed to have fun with my friends on the rapier field and I have recently made a substantial investment in cut and thrust. Rapier is still younger in the SCA by a good bit than rattan fighting and is not yet recognized or accepted in all kingdoms. The way to hasten that acceptance is to listen carefully to the comments of those experienced and sometimes influential SCAdians who have had bad experiences crossing over and try to address their concerns rather than attacking the messenger. This approach has led, in my opinion, to respect and appreciation between the leaders of the Atlantian armored and rapier communities.

[maxntropy]

I severely doubt that a fighter of the skill and caliber of Duke Alaric is unable to measure the force of a blow through cloth. much less get distracted by the extremely low levels of adrenaline put out during a rapier bout.

Both myself and my helmet can absolutely attest that his Grace is always precisely aware of the measure of force he is delivering. He is one who strongly focuses on biomechanical technique and precision both in placement and power.

Max Von Halstern