SCA Combat Training: Flat Snap, foot position

[Maeryk]

Fair enough, against a helm it wouldn't really make much difference, in general principle though it makes sense. Yes, I can see how it might work well for the game, but I'm of the school of trying to be as realistic as possible without the "bad realism". I look through the manuals, test cut with sharps, etc

Yup, and nothing wrong with that. But the game we play wants percussive force of a percieved minimum, and the best way _in my experience_ to do that is to make it short, sharp, and sudden. Longer "pushes" tend to get less notice, and to feel "less good" even though it's the same amount of force, just distributed over a longer period of time.

[Maeryk]

Fair enough, against a helm it wouldn't really make much difference, in general principle though it makes sense. Yes, I can see how it might work well for the game, but I'm of the school of trying to be as realistic as possible without the "bad realism". I look through the manuals, test cut with sharps, etc

Yup, and nothing wrong with that. But the game we play wants percussive force of a percieved minimum, and the best way _in my experience_ to do that is to make it short, sharp, and sudden. Longer "pushes" tend to get less notice, and to feel "less good" even though it's the same amount of force, just distributed over a longer period of time.

Besides, draw cuts and "edges" mean nothing in heavy combat, other than weapon orientation.

[paulb]

Fair enough, against a helm it wouldn't really make much difference, in general principle though it makes sense. Yes, I can see how it might work well for the game, but I'm of the school of trying to be as realistic as possible without the "bad realism". I look through the manuals, test cut with sharps, etc

My techniques were designed for armoured combat. If I want a penetrating cut, I can use the same technique, but focused further into the target. I would think that would provide enough "realism", should it be useful. And the technique would still retain the advantage of avoiding over-commitment.

I am very supportive of studying the manuals. They can provide a wealth of knowledge. However, unless your aim is to copy their techniques exactly, they are not the only source of sword technique. And perhaps I'm wrong, but isn't the purpose of test cuts with sharps to ensure that your execution of a technique provides proper sword orientation? Do you do much of that against armor?

Regards,

[AwP]

Fair enough, against a helm it wouldn't really make much difference, in general principle though it makes sense. Yes, I can see how it might work well for the game, but I'm of the school of trying to be as realistic as possible without the "bad realism". I look through the manuals, test cut with sharps, etc

My techniques were designed for armoured combat. If I want a penetrating cut, I can use the same technique, but focused further into the target. I would think that would provide enough "realism", should it be useful. And the technique would still retain the advantage of avoiding over-commitment.

I am very supportive of studying the manuals. They can provide a wealth of knowledge. However, unless your aim is to copy their techniques exactly, they are not the only source of sword technique. And perhaps I'm wrong, but isn't the purpose of test cuts with sharps to ensure that your execution of a technique provides proper sword orientation? Do you do much of that against armor?

Regards,

Armoured SCA combat or armoured lethal combat? Regardless of how you answer that, you might be right that your techniques are easily adapted to ""real" combat, I''m not particularly familiar with your style, I was going by what you had posted earlier.

I agree, manuals aren't the only source of techniques. Yes, test cutting is mainly for edge alignment. I have tested against armor, but I'm only willing to damage so much of my stuff, so I wouldn't say I've done it "much".

[Corby de la Flamme]

I prefer that the back heel not come off the ground when throwing a snap. I feel that it creates a commitment forward and rotationally that is not, or should not be intended. This over commitment can pull you out of position, slow down the return of your sword, and impede your movement to your next position.

Pointing out to everyone who doesn't know that Paul's style and Oldcastle has some really fundamental disagreements about where one should PUT one's feet, I hope it emphasizes all the other bits by saying I totally agree with Paul's analysis here.

I'll be more specific and confrontational while I'm at it: I believe rotating your foot when you throw is always wrong.

And those who say "whatever works for you" are either being analytically lazy, stylistically sloppy, and in essence saying "let someone's talent make do when they can't get technique."

[Maeryk]

I prefer that the back heel not come off the ground when throwing a snap. I feel that it creates a commitment forward and rotationally that is not, or should not be intended. This over commitment can pull you out of position, slow down the return of your sword, and impede your movement to your next position.

Pointing out to everyone who doesn't know that Paul's style and Oldcastle has some really fundamental disagreements about where one should PUT one's feet, I hope it emphasizes all the other bits by saying I totally agree with Paul's analysis here.

I'll be more specific and confrontational while I'm at it: I believe rotating your foot when you throw is always wrong.

And those who say "whatever works for you" are either being analytically lazy, stylistically sloppy, and in essence saying "let someone's talent make do when they can't get technique."

Erm.. there are many techniques.. I don't think any one is right for everyone.. just as there are many body types, joint types, and such.. I'm not saying what I do is the ONLY way, and that you should pick it up.. if your style works for you.. f'n go nuts man.. but that planted foot style _NEVER_ worked for me. Perhaps it's the years of dance, or just my freaky joint structures, I don't know.. but a little twist of the feet, some hip throw, and I was hitting 5x5.

[Corby de la Flamme]

it might be that he NEEDS to due to being smaller or weaker than you.

About 2 months ago, I taught a 85 pound, 5'1" girl to throw an Atlantian quality killing flat snap. She did it without raising her heel.

Unless this guy has serious chronic joint issues that haven't been mentioned, he can do it without raising his heel.

Has he played a lot of golf? Golfers are endemic heel raisers when they try flat snaps.

[Count Johnathan]

So you are saying I fight wrong Corby?

Let's say hypothetically that we fought frequently and I was victorious more often than not. Lifting my heal as I threw flat snaps and connecting with good power and speed without losing my balance and at the same time achieving the exact goal I was attempting. Would you still say my technique was wrong?

[Andrew Sterner]

I was lifting my heel up until I was told it wasn't "needed." Just translated a slap shot's mechanics into my swing, and the heel doesn't want to lift now.

Not to put words into anyone's mouth, but I think he was saying it's not necessary.

[Count Johnathan]

Well he did say

I'll be more specific and confrontational while I'm at it: I believe rotating your foot when you throw is always wrong.

So I think the message was pretty clear.

I've had to laugh at folks before who told me what I was doing wrong as I mopped the floor with them in every manner possible. Of course I've also had people tell me subtle things they noticed that indeed could use improvement but whatever. I just think it's funny that people will insist that somebody is doing something wrong even when the technique works flawlessly and they are having great success with it.

Seriously if someone is besting me using a style that I don't use I would be most embarrassed to tell them they were kicking my ass the wrong way.

When someone is doing something that is working extremely well against an opponenet who uses a different method it is clear that the guy who is winning is not doing it wrong... he is using a superior technique.

[audax]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RerxARfkepQ

Atlantian Crown video from '06 starting at 2:03 Sir Corby fighting Master Roland and there are all kinds of heel raisings going on.

Help me out, cuz I ain't getting it.

[Corby de la Flamme]

Just because my technique isn't perfect doesn't mean I'm not trying.

[Corby de la Flamme]

When someone is doing something that is working extremely well against an opponenet who uses a different method it is clear that the guy who is winning is not doing it wrong... he is using a superior technique.

Nope! Not necessarily.

There are, off the top of my head, at least 4 contributors to victory:

Conditioning
Technique
Talent
Intensity

Every fighter is, at every moment of a fight, some combination of these things. Anyone can make up (at least for a while) for a lack in one with more of the others.

Talent is the one thing that can't go up. It only goes down.

It is absolutely possible for someone to win fights with extremely poor technique. I daresay any of us who watch bouts have seen it happen many times.

Also, some things, like raising the heel, are relatively minor mistakes. Other things, like leaning your head over your shield foot, or letting your tip go too early in a wrap, are major and very difficult to recover from/have success with. But if you have enough talent and conditioning and intensity, even those things can be overcome. But you'll never teach someone without those things to do it successfully, and you'll burn your body up doing them.

[Ogedei]

Good points. Victory doesn't always go to the best technique, sometimes we are rewarded for doing dumb things. Not saying that the heel raise is a dumb thing. When I observed it in slow work I wasn't sure about it. It is not as if I observed the error (if at all) and immediately thought the guy should give up on his hopes of fighting.

@nephilim This discussion centers around "proper" technique under perfect conditions, not what happens on the field when engaged. One is to prepare us for the other. If you believe pell work to be synonymous and every technique you master on the pole to work exactly against a living moving opponent you are very new. If you are not very new, I don't really get where you are coming from.

[Count Johnathan]

Mind boggling. Where do you get this idea that your way is the only way, the correct way and that everyone else who doesn't do it that way is making a mistake? Especially if their technique is besting you frequently! Really you would correct someone who is defeating you?

I just even grip that sort of logic.

[Dafydd]

I'll be more specific and confrontational while I'm at it: I believe rotating your foot when you throw is always wrong.

For that to be the case, then there would have to be a fundamental physical reason, a matter of undesirable body mechanics that it would be physically impossible to prevent. Without necessarily denying that this is so, I'd like to ask you what you believe this reason to be? The momentum commitment(s) that paulb describes or something similar?

Thank you in advance,

[Count Johnathan]

Ogedei, Corby is wrong. Paul is wrong. I am wrong. We are all correct about the technique we teach.

PLease don't assume a person is making an error merely because the style or technique they are using is being contradicted by another fighter who has their own concept of how it should be done and is dead set against someone doing it any way other than their way.

That is wrong.

[Ogedei]

Ogedei, Corby is wrong. Paul is wrong. I am wrong. We are all correct about the technique we teach.

PLease don't assume a person is making an error merely because the style or technique they are using is being contradicted by another fighter who has their own concept of how it should be done and is dead set against someone doing it any way other than their way.

That is wrong.

I have not agreed or disagreed with any of you. Sorry if you came to that conclusion, it was not my intention. I don't believe anyone is necessarily wrong, I guess much like you. I do believe there may be ways that might be easier on the body than others. I do not believe this to be the case in this discussion.

I pretty much have what I needed to have from this discussion actually.

[Ogedei]

Also wanted to add, along His Excellencies line of reasoning responding to this thread are Dukes, Counts and Knights. I assume you guys can all swing stick.

Knowing we can all swing stick we should listen to what each other has to say, agree or not 100%, you can learn something from it all.

I am sure Yoda has an applicable quote somewhere.

[Corby de la Flamme]

I'll be more specific and confrontational while I'm at it: I believe rotating your foot when you throw is always wrong.

For that to be the case, then there would have to be a fundamental physical reason, a matter of undesirable body mechanics that it would be physically impossible to prevent. Without necessarily denying that this is so, I'd like to ask you what you believe this reason to be? The momentum commitment(s) that paulb describes or something similar?

You're right! And there is.

Power comes from hip rotation. Hip rotation comes from pushing off the ground. You push off the ground with your back foot (and your front foot too, to a lesser extent.) When you pivot, or raise your heel, you are not pushing as effectively.

[Maeryk]

I'll be more specific and confrontational while I'm at it: I believe rotating your foot when you throw is always wrong.

For that to be the case, then there would have to be a fundamental physical reason, a matter of undesirable body mechanics that it would be physically impossible to prevent. Without necessarily denying that this is so, I'd like to ask you what you believe this reason to be? The momentum commitment(s) that paulb describes or something similar?

You're right! And there is.

Power comes from hip rotation. Hip rotation comes from pushing off the ground. You push off the ground with your back foot (and your front foot too, to a lesser extent.) When you pivot, or raise your heel, you are not pushing as effectively.

In my case, if my heel stays down, my hamstrings and achilles will be pulled in about the second shot.. so, lifting my foot is the only way to go. (And please, don't say "Stretch" if two years of dancing and two years of sports, stretching daily didn't lengthen them, nothing is ever going to short of surgery).

[Corby de la Flamme]

Mind boggling. Where do you get this idea that your way is the only way, the correct way and that everyone else who doesn't do it that way is making a mistake? Especially if their technique is besting you frequently! Really you would correct someone who is defeating you?

You've mentioned my being defeated twice now. Do you refer to some particular case/bout/tourney/person? Or just the fact that I'm not a duke?

Almost every time I lose a fight, it is because my feet were not in the right position. (Sometimes it has to do with someone with mutant speed who can hit me even if my position is 100% correct.) I try to be modest, but I can't think of many people who "best me frequently" and those who do so while doing something really wrong with their feet are fewer and farther between.

[Count Johnathan]

It is based on my hypothetical situation where someone is besting you frequently yet you would still tell them they were doing it wrong. You did basically ignore the original hypothetical question but confirmed the answer with...

Nope! Not necessarily.

There are, off the top of my head, at least 4 contributors to victory: snipped for brevetiy

So to clarify I will ask again, if someone is using a technique you think is incorrect but they are besting you frequently would you correct someone who is defeating you and tell them their technique is wrong?

[Blaine de Navarre]

Power comes from hip rotation. Hip rotation comes from pushing off the ground. You push off the ground with your back foot (and your front foot too, to a lesser extent.) When you pivot, or raise your heel, you are not pushing as effectively.

So, I guess my old Sifu who could throw me across the room while standing on one foot must have been doing it wrong.

I agree that for most of us who have not devoted our lives to martial arts training, it is best to keep both feet planted, but it is not the only way.

[Dafydd]

I'll be more specific and confrontational while I'm at it: I believe rotating your foot when you throw is always wrong.

For that to be the case, then there would have to be a fundamental physical reason, a matter of undesirable body mechanics that it would be physically impossible to prevent. Without necessarily denying that this is so, I'd like to ask you what you believe this reason to be? The momentum commitment(s) that paulb describes or something similar?

You're right! And there is.

Power comes from hip rotation. Hip rotation comes from pushing off the ground. You push off the ground with your back foot (and your front foot too, to a lesser extent.) When you pivot, or raise your heel, you are not pushing as effectively.

Thank you! I appreciate the response.

I definitely agree that you aren't going to push off the back foot as efficiently or powerfully with the heel raised. However, I can only agree that it's "always wrong" if that particular aspect of effectiveness is your sole (or perhaps just primary) consideration. For me, anyway, it isn't.

A very important component of my fighting style is mobility. I am in more-or-less constant motion (from a footwork standpoint) when I fight, attempting to use control of measure to my advantage. I find I am more easily able to change direction quickly if I am on the balls of my feet a fair part of the time. It buys me a sometimes invaluable fraction of a second in tempo advantage. I have obviously had to put a fair bit of work over the years into refining my footwork (etc...) to be able to employ proper hip rotation while throwing shots in motion. It is unquestionably less efficient than throwing from a heel-down stance...but keeping my heel down too much is also less efficient from a footwork (and thus control-of-measure) standpoint.

So I guess the point I'm making is that it's a trade-off...as are so many other aspects of armored combat. In this case, you have to balance the efficiency of both the shot and your footwork, and these factors are somewhat at cross purposes here. I am willing to (slightly) compromise shot efficiency in favor of being (slightly) faster on my feet, because I can already throw harder than would be considered necessary or even acceptable from a heel-raised stance, as long as I don't let other aspects of my body mechanics slip.

In part, this is because I have very strong legs (former velodrome match sprinter...my calves only recently dropped under 20" since I quit racing) and can get a pretty strong push off the ground with a raised heel, and I've learned how to get decent hip rotation while on the move. Someone with a different body and/or training focus might well be advised to do their best to keep their heel down. A big, hulking fighter with enormous upper body strength might be advised push the trade-off even further towards the mobility side because they can get away with using mostly arm strength for their shots (but desperately need to do something about being too slow-footed).

I think I'm not objecting to your assertion about shot efficiency (the body mechanics involved are pretty cut-and-dried), only to the absolute claim that heel-raising is always wrong.

[St. George]

The form, style or whatever that someone uses to get there is up to them. There are some basics that seem to help and promise the good transfer of power. However, some guys, like Count Kane, could hold their hand in front of themselves, and just whack you with a good shot. No body movement, no nothing. Others, like me, can take a full swing, and it might not be hard enough for some people. Kane's arms, however, weighed more than I do (even now that I am fat).

In tennis, there have been numerous studies that show that keeping your feet on the ground, etc, provide a better shot. There is also plenty of empirical evidence showing that you can be jumping in the air and whacking the crap out of the ball. Same in SCA combat. Keeping your feet on the ground, or not, twisting your hips or foot, or not, also provide a different capability for force transfer.

In order to maximize power, however, the form will generally be the same- hit low on the stick, and transfer your power and mass through the sword by utilizing your trunk muscles and remaining grounded so your leg muscles can help as well.

Less can work, but this will likely provide the top amount of force possible.

g-

[DukeAvery]

Sword heel should be down and grounded with the snap thrown as a short impulse whole body contraction for maximal results. I can and have thrown shots most will accept with my sword leg off the ground, but the very best fighters can close gaps in their defenses after being hit only once, so why waste the opening?

Confusion to your enemies.

Regards

Avery

[Dauyd]

I'll be more specific and confrontational while I'm at it: I believe rotating your foot when you throw is always wrong.

For that to be the case, then there would have to be a fundamental physical reason, a matter of undesirable body mechanics that it would be physically impossible to prevent. Without necessarily denying that this is so, I'd like to ask you what you believe this reason to be? The momentum commitment(s) that paulb describes or something similar?

You're right! And there is.

Power comes from hip rotation. Hip rotation comes from pushing off the ground. You push off the ground with your back foot (and your front foot too, to a lesser extent.) When you pivot, or raise your heel, you are not pushing as effectively.

Seems to me that raising your heel happens because you are using your calf muscles in addition to your upper leg muscles, thereby INCREASING the strength, speed, and effectiveness of the hip rotation.

I know, for example, that I can jump a heck of a lot higher if I extend my feet (using the calf muscles) than if I were to try to jump flat footed.

I find it interesting that in every other sport that relies on hip rotation to add power to blows being struck (martial arts, baseball, and boxing come to mind) that lifting the heel is considered a good thing, while in this one many seem to feel it a bad thing.

[Count Johnathan]

It's because many listen to few and accept it as gospel.

Some things work well for some and not for others. Some things don't work at all. Some systems teach one thing and some teach the opposite. It's not right or wrong exactly, just different.

IMO this discussion equates to karate instructers telling kung fu fighters they are doing it wrong.

[Ogedei]

Well. We are none of those sports. Certainly not boxing. We only need to hit once and we don't need to knock the guy out. Sure we might hit multiple times and encounter defense, but it's not needed to win.

I was messing around while cleaning the kitchen and working on a project.

I found that fighting in a fairly square stance, basically shoulder width with the sword leg leading, rotating the back foot was uncomfortable. I found turned so to have your feet more in line and your shield shoulder more towards your opponent, it was more comfortable to rotate the back foot.

[Maeryk]

Well. We are none of those sports. Certainly not boxing. We only need to hit once and we don't need to knock the guy out. Sure we might hit multiple times and encounter defense, but it's not needed to win.

I was messing around while cleaning the kitchen and working on a project.

I found that fighting in a fairly square stance, basically shoulder width with the sword leg leading, rotating the back foot was uncomfortable. I found turned so to have your feet more in line and your shield shoulder more towards your opponent, it was more comfortable to rotate the back foot.

What worked for me was "feet shoulder width apart.. one big step back with the sword leg, center your weight".. and yes, when putting the calf into it for "extra power" the heel does come up.. but then, I also fought a VERY mobile style that was affected, detrimentally, by having both feet "planted".. lots of step work involved.

YMMV.. it worked for me.

[GenericUnique]

Do bear in mind where heels on the floor are important - squats. Since that takes the calves largely out of the chain of muscles involved, where they were a weak link.

For what it's worth, my striking instructor (so not pure boxing) prefers the rear heel in a cross lifted to help sink the knee down as part of getting body mass "dropped" into the blow, at least as much as pushing that side of the body forwards. Read Dempsey for a better explanation of drop steps, since he's umpteen times the explainer I am.

[Maeryk]

Do bear in mind where heels on the floor are important - squats. Since that takes the calves largely out of the chain of muscles involved, where they were a weak link.

For what it's worth, my striking instructor (so not pure boxing) prefers the rear heel in a cross lifted to help sink the knee down as part of getting body mass "dropped" into the blow, at least as much as pushing that side of the body forwards. Read Dempsey for a better explanation of drop steps, since he's umpteen times the explainer I am.

When I throw to the shield-side head of an opponent, my entire body drops slightly, my weight goes back (slightly) onto my rear leg, my hand crosses their "center" with the blade slightly trailing it, my shoulder and hips move forward to re-center my weight fully, with the heel coming up _a bit_ thrusting the hip forward.

That's how I've always thrown that shot, and always will.

Reversing into an offside means pulling my hand back towards my head, and then rotating over with my wrist, and standing up and out with BOTH feet as the blade arcs in..

Again, always have, always will.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Power comes from hip rotation. Hip rotation comes from pushing off the ground. You push off the ground with your back foot (and your front foot too, to a lesser extent.) When you pivot, or raise your heel, you are not pushing as effectively.

When runners push off from the block, they lift their heels, as do basketball players when they jump, batters when they swing, etc.

If it did not give them more power, they wouldn't do it. NOT doing it would limit the range of "stroke" in achieving your power.

Sometimes people do things subconsciously that they do not realize that they do.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Standing long jumpers, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P8qmLl4rZQ
An exercise that develops lower body explosive strength in a horizontal jumping pattern - an appropriate specialised preparatory exercise for accelerative sprinting.