SCA Combat Training: Flat Snap, foot position

[Violen]

So let me get this straight, the majority of you fight on your heels, not the balls of your feet?

Interesting!

[AwP]

There's a phrase, "being caught flat-footed", and it doesn't mean ready to fight.

[Nissan Maxima]

I don't throw a hell of a lot of flat snaps, but apparantly when I do (at 2:53) I do a little heel raise. Hits with plenty of ooomph though.

Other stuff, sometimes heel up and sometimes down and sometimes completely in the air. (4:40)

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1659651609

I use a natural "fight like I walk" footwork.

[Nissan Maxima]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YHIA6s8u4o

When will we be able to edit posts in this forum again?

[DukeAvery]

I maneuver and position myself and 50 or more pounds of gear on the balls of my feet, but when I deliver the finishing attack I will be briefly grounded (which is different that flat-footed). With spear, when I melee I like to start behind the wall adopting what Balin calls my 'goblin stance', where my weight is well forward on in which I jog easily. I enter the line a moment before contact and then ground and lunge in one fluid motion before displacing unless my strike is successful and then I will maneuver into the gap.

There are infinite ways to attack an opponent, I'm not denigrating whatever works for anyone else. Otherwise, hey you kids get off my lawn.

Regards

Avery

[Count Johnathan]

Corby does it too. In fact 99.9% of all fighters I have ever seen does at least a slight toe push when throwing a flat snap regardless of what they teach or claim to be correct.

Corby does it in the video of him out of armor testing the polypro sticks in that thread both a leg shot and a head blow at 41 seconds into the video.

It is the natural motion for a properly thrown flat snap.

[DukeAvery]

I agree that most practitioners are not wringing all the short impulse power they could from their musculature. Most male sca fighters don't use their whole bodies to throw - they don't need to, and they don't want to. For myself, I continue to develop my specific use of Paul's style and this thread has been helpful to me. I realize I was pulling my heels up early (along with push the shot with my arm). When I stop doing these things, is when I hit harder than ever before, and I don't experience the joint problems that throwing mostly upper body caused for me. So throw arm and you can look forward to a 15 year sca fighting career, or learn the proper snap, from the man who invented it and fight for twice that or more. At least, that is how things are going for me. YMMV

Paul - if you read this, could you explain when is the time to lift the sword heel relative to target impact? My foot placement transitioning from a snapping slide snap thru the hip return now strikes hard but my transition doesn't feel smooth.

Also, please note that while I train to maximize my short impulse power, part of my personal code of conduct is to never deliberately strike my opponent harder than they require, or put another way, let no one fall in pain. Because when we look out for each other, the better time we all have.

Regards

Avery

[Count Johnathan]

There is also a difference in proper technique based on the range at which you are throwing the blow. I found a great video that shows both a short range punch vs a mid range flat snap explained very well by HG M. Bedford.

It shows the short range hit where the heel is not raised and a longer ranged hip rotation throw where the psuh is used. This is what works well for me YMMV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o27bsNKMbxE

[Count Johnathan]

"where the psuh is used" ...... PUSH dang edit thingy.

[Ogedei]

So let me get this straight, the majority of you fight on your heels, not the balls of your feet?

Interesting!

No. That is not what was said.

This is a discussion about whether the heal rotates up to push more into the hip rotation or not. You can be off your heels and still not rotate it when you throw.

[audax]

Just because my technique isn't perfect doesn't mean I'm not trying.

Corby, I get that. However, your foot, the entire foot not just heel, come off the ground several times during an Atlantian crown tourney where you made it to the semis. So your technique is so far from perfect as to completely belie what you hold as a central tenet of your style. Don't say "Do this or you are wrong" and then NOT DO IT.

The cognitive dissonance is creating a complete mind fuck for people who really want to understand this game. Do what you say to do or make your instruction fit what you are doing, successfully, because people want to emulate your skill and your prowess.

I do not believe it is possible to fight in any sort of physically coherent way without moving ones feet. In fact I believe that not moving ones feet is a cardinal sin of combat and the admonition to not move the feet has done disservice to legions of women fighters.

[audax]

Good points. Victory doesn't always go to the best technique, sometimes we are rewarded for doing dumb things. Not saying that the heel raise is a dumb thing. When I observed it in slow work I wasn't sure about it. It is not as if I observed the error (if at all) and immediately thought the guy should give up on his hopes of fighting.

@nephilim This discussion centers around "proper" technique under perfect conditions, not what happens on the field when engaged. One is to prepare us for the other. If you believe pell work to be synonymous and every technique you master on the pole to work exactly against a living moving opponent you are very new. If you are not very new, I don't really get where you are coming from.

I'm not surprised you don't get where I am coming from since you appear to have not read anything I wrote.

[Ogedei]

Good points. Victory doesn't always go to the best technique, sometimes we are rewarded for doing dumb things. Not saying that the heel raise is a dumb thing. When I observed it in slow work I wasn't sure about it. It is not as if I observed the error (if at all) and immediately thought the guy should give up on his hopes of fighting.

@nephilim This discussion centers around "proper" technique under perfect conditions, not what happens on the field when engaged. One is to prepare us for the other. If you believe pell work to be synonymous and every technique you master on the pole to work exactly against a living moving opponent you are very new. If you are not very new, I don't really get where you are coming from.

I'm not surprised you don't get where I am coming from since you appear to have not read anything I wrote.

Actually I did. Your post questioned what a guy was doing during a hard pressed fight near the finals of a crown tournament and then compared it to how a "perfect" shot would be thrown during slow work against the pell.

So if you are not surprised, perhaps trying to elaborate on what you wrote in a meaningful way would be cool? Sometimes things are lost in the text medium.

[audax]

Ogedei, I don't get what you aren't getting. In my first post, I say I can't throw a blow as described by Corby's Oldcastle style and remain mobile. That seems pretty straight forward.

In my second post, I point out that Corby is not practicing what he is preaching, posting a video to support my and ask for clarification, which I really have not gotten.

In my third post, I ask Corby to bring what he is doing in line with what he is saying because what he says has weight and value.

I still have not gotten an intelligent explanation why Oldcastle style is superior to any other style nor why the heel should be planted when one throws a flat snap. I've tried it, many time over the course of a career than now spans a decade just in the SCA and two and a half of eastern martial arts including weapons training. This is the only style I've encountered that suggests keeping the heel down to throw a basic blow and I want to know why.

Does that help you out?

[Ogedei]

Ogedei, I don't get what you aren't getting. In my first post, I say I can't throw a blow as described by Corby's Oldcastle style and remain mobile. That seems pretty straight forward.

In my second post, I point out that Corby is not practicing what he is preaching, posting a video to support my and ask for clarification, which I really have not gotten.

In my third post, I ask Corby to bring what he is doing in line with what he is saying because what he says has weight and value.

I still have not gotten an intelligent explanation why Oldcastle style is superior to any other style nor why the heel should be planted when one throws a flat snap. I've tried it, many time over the course of a career than now spans a decade just in the SCA and two and a half of eastern martial arts including weapons training. This is the only style I've encountered that suggests keeping the heel down to throw a basic blow and I want to know why.

Does that help you out?

I may have missed your first post. I was replying strictly to your second post, which I still believe is comparing apples to oranges in a lot of ways, but I suspect we will just need to disagree on that point.

I personally don't fight a particular style. It is a mishmash of different things people have told me, part of the nature of how and where I learned to fight.

Thanks for your reply though. I do get where you are coming from, I think.

I don't know if either is superior. I can see one generating more power, which might be needed for some, but leaving you potentially unbalanced. The other using less of your lower leg muscles leaving you more centered and adaptable to movement, but still generating power with torso.

For the way I throw it I can have either leg forward and it dosen't effect my power generation. Which in turn means I can increase my already extensive striking range further by switching lead legs.

For me this thread has largely been an exploration of the flat snap, probably one of the most common blows in the SCA. I have found the differences in opinion interesting.

Ogedei

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

Power comes from hip rotation.

And there you have it. This is the heart of the disagreement, whether the combatants know it or knot.

The statement above can be generalized. For example, I can use my hip rotation to generate power WHILE ROTATING IT IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF MY STRIKE. And I don't mean "incendentally" - the particular shot will be weaker if I don't rotate or rotate the correct way.

This doesn't mean Corby (or Paul, or Oldcastle) are *wrong* - not at all - it means that they are not always right.
A lot of the power in a (regular) "hip rotation" is actually just moving the hip freely so that it doesn't get in the way.

In my view (much of which I got from Uther, and there is quite a bit of diffused Sagan and Paul and probably some Rador and a half dozen other luminaries in there as well), power comes from 3 sources.

1) Large muscles - i.e,. thighs/abs/obliques/pecs etc.
2) Moving about your center of mass like a fulcrum (can be rotational or squatting or raising up, or otherwise shifting)
3) Small muscles (forearm, hand, bicep).

1) and 2) are necesarily related - in that you can't really do (2) without (1). But (2) is not necessary per se... because there are ways do to (1) and channel force without really moving your torso very much. (3) is not "necessary" at all - but sometimes it doesn't hurt to add in a little extra.

The issue is no matter what you are doing your muscles and limbs have to be coordinated. Ie., there is a "transmission" which delivers the energy from your large muscles or hip rotations or squats or jumps into your shoulder / arm / hand / sword.

And that's just "raw" power not apparent power. Apparent power is a whole nother ball of wax because it depends on the angle at which you strike, the position on the sword, flexibility, reach, blah de blah.

Leading to the heel lift. I think that it is probably a reasonable generalization to say that lifting your heel while doing a forward-hip rotation snap/cut robs you of a little raw power. But that don't make it wrong. Lifting your heel actually allows you to rotate FURTHER - which has a few advantages.
1) it changes the angle of attack, and does so in a controllable and flexible manner allowing you to break the shot "around" a shield
2) it adds a couple inches of range
3) the increased rotation will in some cases transfer power more efficiently to the target (and some cases worse, like if opponent steps into it!), while also giving the shot longer to accellerate... so even if the initial "force" (generalize torque?) is lower it's applied longer.

None of the above means that "lifting your heel" is right (or wrong)... it just means that it's neither always right or always wrong. It's actually much like some other thread on "breaking the wrist".

[DukeAvery]

Snap power comes from muscle contraction, the more muscles you use the more force the snap will have. Hips don't rotate on their own.

Regards

Avery

[Dauyd]

I can use my hip rotation to generate power WHILE ROTATING IT IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF MY STRIKE.

Scratching my head here. That seems completely counter intuitive. Can you explain, or link a video that shows this?

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Think of it like scissors. It works, but it isn't going to be your normal method of delivering a blow.

[Kilkenny]

I can use my hip rotation to generate power WHILE ROTATING IT IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF MY STRIKE.

Scratching my head here. That seems completely counter intuitive. Can you explain, or link a video that shows this?

Think of an offside headshot thrown at long range. Starts out like a conventional onside snap, hips rotate forward, but instead of continuing the arm motion for an onside snap, you turn the hand and elbow, flipping it offside, while your hips keep going forward.

Just one example.

[audax]

Thank you, Sigfrithr. May I copy and paste this to the girlsclub forum?

[Kilkenny]

In my view (much of which I got from Uther, and there is quite a bit of diffused Sagan and Paul and probably some Rador and a half dozen other luminaries in there as well), power comes from 3 sources.

1) Large muscles - i.e,. thighs/abs/obliques/pecs etc.
2) Moving about your center of mass like a fulcrum (can be rotational or squatting or raising up, or otherwise shifting)
3) Small muscles (forearm, hand, bicep).

Back in ancient days, I could deliver telling blows just by closing my hand. Absolutely no telegraphing, and effective. Not something just anyone can do. That's Group 3.

Using the abdominals to throw the hip forward and thus start the torso rotation that eventually throws the shoulder, arm and sword. Minimal telegraphing, says nothing about what target you're throwing at, effective. Anyone can learn to do this and get telling blows. That's Group 2 and a subset of Group 1. Note that you can throw a "good" snap using this mechanics with your sword foot entirely off the ground - your legs are not needed for generating power unless you are really quite small.

Pushing off the leg to throw the hip forward initiating the snap. Sends advance notice of your impending blow far enough in advance that only a small number of people will not see it in time to do something about it. Generates telling force. Subset of Group 1. Pushing with the legs isn't necessary for average size people, but it's nice to divide the labor and let them take some of it. Just don't let them initiate. Start with abdominals, add legs after.

When I am teaching snap technique, I emphasize keeping the feet on the ground, weight evenly distributed over both feet, not shifting weight onto the shield foot. I do this not because it is inherently better to keep the heel down (I believe a snap doesn't require the sword foot to be touching the ground at all ). I do it because typical beginners have terrible balance and don't grasp the idea that you can rotate your torso and reach out without leaning. The leaning will get you smacked in the head, lots, and can be a very hard habit to break if it is allowed to develop at all.

I also demonstrate, and have the student attempt, throwing the snap standing on one foot. It demands that you keep your balance and that you initiate with the abdominals, both of which I consider critical to "doing it right".

[audax]

Brilliant.

[Whitewolf Sr.]

The "Flat Snap" is the one shot most folks throw while goin' backwards too!

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

Thank you, Sigfrithr. May I copy and paste this to the girlsclub forum?

Sure, it's not gospel though.

[Dafydd]

As something of a tangential observation, I'd offer that the traditional flat snap and it's similar, hip-twisting kin are something that a knight of the historical period would have only thrown when fighting from foot. While it is possible to isolate shoulder rotation from hip movement, there doesn't seem to be any way to isolate hip rotation from at least some movement of the thighs and, to a lesser degree, the lower legs. We're not built like that.

To anyone that rides (even poorly, like me ) the problem is obvious: if you're using your legs and hips to generate power for your sword blow, you're also inevitably giving movement commands to the horse...commands that are very unlikely indeed to result in the horse doing what you want it to. You steer a horse in a combat situation with your legs and butt (your hands are busy with other things than the reins..). While it's probably possible to teach the horse to differentiate to some degree between actual commands and the movements generated by using your hips and legs for power generation, I'd think that would only go so far...and be a bit foolish to rely on in a life and death situation. Horses like things to be unequivocal; ambiguity from their rider upsets and confuses them.

Like I said, just a tangential observation, but perhaps one that reinforces the argument that there is more than one way to generate proper power in a sword blow.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

I can use my hip rotation to generate power WHILE ROTATING IT IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF MY STRIKE.

Scratching my head here. That seems completely counter intuitive. Can you explain, or link a video that shows this?

As Gavin says - you can do it with an offside to the face. A more basic mechanic is to counter rotate your (sword) hip when you throw a wrap (at the "end" or maybe "middle") of the blow as you turn your hand over and "whip" the sword around back blade first.

You can actually do the same thing with a snap (usually leg snap). Start at close range, sword leg forward. Throw a down cut snap while rotating your sword hit back. This shot is actually not anywhere near as hard as a more classic snap - but it's certainly harder than if you try to just arm the shot in. To add power you can also squat into a little. Actually - it's quite similar to an opening offside "flick" in that's a set up shot. Because in throwing the counter hip snap you cock your hip for the next shot with a half beat. So you can then rip your hand up to the head with a regular snap (goofy footed). A good, fast, high-low combination (for when it's appropriate).

I should get Uther to do a video on body mechanics...

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

Like I said, just a tangential observation, but perhaps one that reinforces the argument that there is more than one way to generate proper power in a sword blow.

Yes, riding on a 3/4 ton warhorse is a great way to generate power with a minimum of (human) body mechanics.

[Dauyd]

I can use my hip rotation to generate power WHILE ROTATING IT IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF MY STRIKE.

Scratching my head here. That seems completely counter intuitive. Can you explain, or link a video that shows this?

As Gavin says - you can do it with an offside to the face. A more basic mechanic is to counter rotate your (sword) hip when you throw a wrap (at the "end" or maybe "middle") of the blow as you turn your hand over and "whip" the sword around back blade first.

You can actually do the same thing with a snap (usually leg snap). Start at close range, sword leg forward. Throw a down cut snap while rotating your sword hit back. This shot is actually not anywhere near as hard as a more classic snap - but it's certainly harder than if you try to just arm the shot in. To add power you can also squat into a little. Actually - it's quite similar to an opening offside "flick" in that's a set up shot. Because in throwing the counter hip snap you cock your hip for the next shot with a half beat. So you can then rip your hand up to the head with a regular snap (goofy footed). A good, fast, high-low combination (for when it's appropriate).

I should get Uther to do a video on body mechanics...

I think I get it- I'd love to see a video, though. Thinking about it, it does make sense. Thanks for the explanation.

[Kilkenny]

As Gavin says - you can do it with an offside to the face. A more basic mechanic is to counter rotate your (sword) hip when you throw a wrap (at the "end" or maybe "middle") of the blow as you turn your hand over and "whip" the sword around back blade first.

You can actually do the same thing with a snap (usually leg snap). Start at close range, sword leg forward. Throw a down cut snap while rotating your sword hit back. This shot is actually not anywhere near as hard as a more classic snap - but it's certainly harder than if you try to just arm the shot in. To add power you can also squat into a little. Actually - it's quite similar to an opening offside "flick" in that's a set up shot. Because in throwing the counter hip snap you cock your hip for the next shot with a half beat. So you can then rip your hand up to the head with a regular snap (goofy footed). A good, fast, high-low combination (for when it's appropriate).

I should get Uther to do a video on body mechanics...

Interesting. In the case of the wrap technique, when I turn the hand over is pretty well synched with the reversal of the hips, so the blow direction is in concert with the rotation. Effectively, real wraps (distinguished from half-wraps aka snap-wraps) involve doing a recovery that brings the blade through the target.

The leg shot you are describing I wouldn't class as a snap. Seems to me that you're moving the hips to clear them out of the way for a close quarters strike and they're really not involved in power generation. I see that one as pretty well isolating the part the abdominals play in power generation, as the hip action is not in the power chain for that blow.

This kind of discussion I always find fascinating. Always something to be learned.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

I think we are describing the same "real" wrap - I just described the timing wrong... and yes you could say that the hip rotation is in the same "direction" as the blow, but it is in the opposite direction from a forehand. I agree that a "reverse hip" or "real" wrap is more common than an "forward hip" wrap (what you are calling a snap-wrap), but both are used.

The leg shot you are describing I wouldn't class as a snap. Seems to me that you're moving the hips to clear them out of the way for a close quarters strike and they're really not involved in power generation. I see that one as pretty well isolating the part the abdominals play in power generation, as the hip action is not in the power chain for that blow.

OK, "forehand cut". But that's my whole point - the hips aren't ever "really" involved in power GENERATION. Hips are joints not muscles. That are involved in power TRANSMISSION. And the work both ways (albeit not with equal efficiency). You use your abdominals and thighs (etc.) in both.

After all that - I do agree it's a very useful training paradigm to say that the hip going forward "drives" the snap.

[Count Johnathan]

I throw a version of the flat snap from one position where my hip actually moves forward first while my shoulders remain static which creates the "coil" effect before the shot is thrown which builds a tremendous amount of power before I even start to swing...and then I push off with my toe a bit.

This all depends on the position the shot is thrown from though since the dynamics of the shot change dramatically depending on the situation and angle of attack.

[Kilkenny]

I think we are describing the same "real" wrap - I just described the timing wrong... and yes you could say that the hip rotation is in the same "direction" as the blow, but it is in the opposite direction from a forehand. I agree that a "reverse hip" or "real" wrap is more common than an "forward hip" wrap (what you are calling a snap-wrap), but both are used.

The leg shot you are describing I wouldn't class as a snap. Seems to me that you're moving the hips to clear them out of the way for a close quarters strike and they're really not involved in power generation. I see that one as pretty well isolating the part the abdominals play in power generation, as the hip action is not in the power chain for that blow.

OK, "forehand cut". But that's my whole point - the hips aren't ever "really" involved in power GENERATION. Hips are joints not muscles. That are involved in power TRANSMISSION. And the work both ways (albeit not with equal efficiency). You use your abdominals and thighs (etc.) in both.

After all that - I do agree it's a very useful training paradigm to say that the hip going forward "drives" the snap.

Ahh.. But I've been finding that it's even more useful to explain that you don't push the hip with your legs, you pull it with your abdominals Too many times I see people trying to drive off that back leg as the start of the blow. It seems to come from too much emphasis on "driving" the hip.

Not that I don't think the legs factor in. When I really need to put a metric load of extra on a shot I do what I call "hit with the planet". I make sure that everything from my heel right through my arm and into the target is in as straight a line as possible and all tensed and driving at impact. No give in the system. Incorporates all the leg muscles along with everything else. Can give flying lessons.

[Yojimbo]

when i boxed, they taught to pivot on the ball of the rear foot for power in rear hand blows. Pretty common, I still do it somtimes in sca fighting, especially if Im facing the infamous creature, the rhino