Known World Novice Tourney - Pennsic 40

[Glaukos the Athenian]

The witnesses saw it. They will talk. It can't be stopped.

He's got a point. It is beyond your control.

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

There is a certain level of noble brutality that is expected of those who chase the ghost of Knighthood.

This is the knife edge we walk. When you screw up make amends immediately, and if somebody needs to yell at you...you let them do it.

The reward for this particular display of prowess is the bad renown that came with it.

This reminds me of a short tale that a certain knight told me at Pennsic....

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

On the matter of cup shots.... I was in a tourney earlier in the summer and made my way to the quater-finals. In the QFs, I very unintentionally cup shot(ted) my opponent. This win would have sent me to the semis. I could not allow the win to stand, even though the shot was legal and certainly not thrown with intent. I insisted the bout be refought. I lost the bout, but felt that I kept my own honor in tact.

Point is, legal or not, a cup shot does not give a chivalous victory...or defeat.

sigh...
thank you!!
exactly how I feel and glad to hear those who act on it and risk the loss

While I share the sentiment, I would caution that this creates a sort of "trap" from which even an honorable and renowned fighter like Kenwrec feels that he must extricate, even if he did not do anything intentionally.

Perhaps the issue of intent is what separates the legality from the desirability of this type of blow.

My approach is that being located in the center mass of a fighter's target, sooner or later even the most well intended and chivalrous fighter will land a hit on the cup of his opponent. The issue is whether it was intended to go there and used as a technique, or whether it landed there by accident. If the former I would reconsider my opinion of the fighter, if the latter, the blow was meant goodly and landled poorly and being legal it should count. As Baron Eirik properly indicates, frequency of this type of blow by the same fighter will tell the story.

One wonders whether the cup shot should be either made fully illegal, and therefore end the issue, or efforts should be made to remove any stigma attached to viewing it as a legitimate target. If the purpose of our fighting is an honorable match, the dual quality of the target area creates an artificial pitfall where even honorable fighters can fall. I for one, would suggest making the area fully illegal, like the calf, and any shots to the area formally invalid.
Kill the dog, kill the rabies.

Glaukos

It is a personal choice that I will continue to make. To me, it is the right thing to do.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Boy - I do have to say - a left-handed fighter, ESPECIALLY a novice often throws a wrap aroudn the shield to hit the leg - often the lead leg. When a right handed fighter bends he knees to block it, it can often result in a cup shot.

Usually, experience teaches the lefty to lower the point to avoid the cup, and teaches the righty to not bend his knees to block.


.

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Kenwrec,

It was an observation, not a criticism. In fact far be it from it. And I believe your choice does you honor.

[BdeB]

I don't think I have a cup shot in my arsenal with a single-handed weapon. I will sometimes spear a guy's cup while aiming for his belly or thigh.

Animal Weretiger convinced me to never intentionally spear a person in their squishy parts.

I do, though it is actually targeted to the belly. It occasionally strikes someones groin. Once I hit a friend in the Taint. Hilarity ensued! There are times after all when the horrible can quickly ascend to the Sublime.

As has been noted groin shots against the wrong-handed it often happens on both sides of the mirror when a tight inside wrap goes wrong.

It's a legal target bottom line. With spear it is the ultimate 're-set button'. Some times folks need to sit down and they need a shock to their brain to let them know that. I also target the hip joint and belly but shit happens.

The reality is that in tourney if you are only relying on ONE SHOT OF ANY TYPE you are severely limiting yourself, your growth and potential. And if it is the balls, then you are being a douche to boot.

As to Animal though, I hope to one day stab him in the junk hard enough to turn him into a Pez dispenser!

[TallTom]

As to Animal though, I hope to one day stab him in the junk hard enough to turn him into a Pez dispenser!

Well, Animal has expressed a desire to hit Mssr. Maxima in the "nips":

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=138300

Respectfully tongue-in-cheek,
Thomas

[SirBaldric]

Good morning all,

Countess Joleicia asked me to provide my insight into the issue that I brought forth to her.

There was atleast three cup shots thrown, and after watching, I suspect the issue was much more about a lack of control on the thrust, and to some degree the glance off the shield factor. I doubt the cup shots were intentional, the more I played them out in my head, but they were definitely becoming consistent. Low sword guard, and swing upwards with the thrust, and as happened more then once, the thrust landed firmly on the opponent's cup. There might have been a slight slide up the inner thigh which guided it, or the curve of the shield.

As I recall, I believe I took the time to speak to the fighter, if only briefly, about the angle, but that might have been a discussion about something else. I take guiding new fighters very seriously, as our words have the danger of being taken very seriously (a good thing) or too seriously (a bad thing). This is the second year I've marshaled this tourney and I always try to guide with positive remarks while weighing how that fighter feels about their progress in the tourney. I know I did speak to the fighter, I just can't remember how I handled it, nor how they took it. I get hit in the head a lot

The good thing is that the fighter in question had a parental figure there that I'm certain, was guiding their progress. I suspect it will get handled regardless.

Baldric
Ealdormere

[joleicia]

Thank you Baldric, hearing your observations and that you spoke to him specifically does help me feel a little better. Hopefully, he'll endeavor to adjust his fighting to avoid future issues. It doesn't change my initial statement of sticking to my commitment of being more hands on in future tourneys though, if only to help prevent negative talk off the field that could taint a new fighter's reputation and attitude towards fighting. I realize that all we can do is guide and advise, but I want to do at least that.

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

Kenwrec,

It was an observation, not a criticism. In fact far be it from it. And I believe your choice does you honor.

No critisism taken, my friend. None at all.

It was most excellent to finally meet you at Pennsic this year.

[Lucan Dux]

Please let me know if the cupping was done by any Eastern fighters so it may be addressed.

[BdeB]

Remember kids, wrong and funny is still FUNNY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IUbGFFVf9s

[Nissan Maxima]

funnier.

[herrhauptmann]

I was in the tourney. I did okay in my matches, and it was fun.
Thank you for running it. Hope it happens again next year.

I did notice, that a lot of the people I fought in the tourney, had very low power in their shots, even the big guys. A lot less than I usually see at practice.

[maxntropy]

I was in the tourney. I did okay in my matches, and it was fun.
Thank you for running it. Hope it happens again next year.

I did notice, that a lot of the people I fought in the tourney, had very low power in their shots, even the big guys. A lot less than I usually see at practice.

HH:

Remember, calibration can vary very significantly WITHIN a Kingdom, let alone across multiple Kingdoms.

Max Von Halstern

[SirCathal]

Also novice fighters ususally have power generation issues. They are still learning to throw shots correctly.

[BdeB]

funnier.

+1 Tasha!

[Diglach Mac Cein]

I understand spooning is OK on occasion....

(Too good of a straight line to pass up.)

Please let me know if the cupping was done by any Eastern fighters so it may be addressed.

[john the breeder]

i just wanted to thank everyone whom had a hand in setting up the tourney, this was my second year fighting in it and both times i had some of the best and most memorable days of fighting i can remember , thank you again to countess joleicia i had a great time and made alot of new friends, and would like to help out next year in any way i can

thank you all
john the breeder

[freiman the minstrel]

I want to suggest that this might actually be accidental. I advise newbies not to take the time to work up an effective cup shot. It just isn't worth the time in the studio to train to throw it.

Let's face it, just about every male in the world has been trained since kindergarten to defend the Jewels. We have had some pretty dang effective object lessons on how much it hurts when we fail to protect that area. I have seen more than a few guys carried off one sports field or another vomiting. We learn pretty fast, and it isn't a lesson we forget easily.

And (and this is not meant to be a joke) that's actually a pretty small target, and it's really easy to defend.

So, time spent training to throw a cup shot would be MUCH better spent working on improving their basics. Basic blows, footwork, timing, whatever. It all pays off a lot more than training to throw a cup shot. The blow is just too tough to throw effectively, compared to just about anything else.

The idea that some newbie would work up an effective cup shot, at the exclusion of something else, is just plain more difficult to believe than somebody just accidentally throwing three cups in a row, especially if he was a short lefty. The Sarnac tourney has been going on for how long? How many folks have entered?

It was bound to happen eventually.

Let's view this as an anomaly, and give the new fellow a break. He (or she) is new. He will have a lot of time to gain infamy.

f

[Leo Medii]

Max, you are an example to all of us of how we can be better men. Reading your words gives me hope for the SCA.

[BdeB]

I got hit in the cup twice tonight at practice. Once was from my former squire, one from a future squire. Neither was malicious. S%^& happens. I'm far more perturbed about the actual bruises I have, and that is entirely disappointment with myself for failing to BLOCK.

[Leo Medii]

I got hit in the cup twice tonight at practice. Once was from my former squire, one from a future squire. Neither was malicious. S%^& happens. I'm far more perturbed about the actual bruises I have, and that is entirely disappointment with myself for failing to BLOCK.

Damn....I kept looking for the "like" button for this post.

[Michael Cartwright]

I'm split on this issue…

For me, (in mundane life) a knee to the other guys/girls groin has helped me out of more scrapes than I can think of BUT every time was a "Him" or "Me" situation.

On the Tourney field I think a groin shot is not required because the situation is not desperate… In fact I'm sure I would be fairly well devastated if I smashed my honoured opponent in the groin during a Tourney...

[Ewen MacSuibhne]

I you know an opponent has habit of throwing cup shots, wait for the shot to come in, then club him in the head. When that happens enough times, they'll stop aiming for the cup. Or speaking monosyllabically. It really depends on how hard you hit him.

[SirBaldric]

I've noticed a few posts that seem to either suggest he was aiming for it, or ways to kill him if he does, so just to reiterate, I truly believe he was NOT aiming for it. He just lacked control of the thrust and started it low, which means it either got blocked down, or did not make it high enough before tagging the cup instead of the body. I also like to give any fighter the benefit of the doubt, and I'm certain by now, if he's still dong it, someone at his practice has let him know to adjust his technique to avoid it and make the shot more effective.

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

I've noticed a few posts that seem to either suggest he was aiming for it, or ways to kill him if he does, so just to reiterate, I truly believe he was NOT aiming for it. He just lacked control of the thrust and started it low, which means it either got blocked down, or did not make it high enough before tagging the cup instead of the body. I also like to give any fighter the benefit of the doubt, and I'm certain by now, if he's still dong it, someone at his practice has let him know to adjust his technique to avoid it and make the shot more effective.

LIKE

Let it go folks, the issue has been addressed.

regards
ThorvaldR

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Let it go folks, the issue has been addressed.

Given the target being discussed... maybe not the best choice of words?

[joleicia]

I've noticed a few posts that seem to either suggest he was aiming for it, or ways to kill him if he does, so just to reiterate, I truly believe he was NOT aiming for it. He just lacked control of the thrust and started it low, which means it either got blocked down, or did not make it high enough before tagging the cup instead of the body. I also like to give any fighter the benefit of the doubt, and I'm certain by now, if he's still dong it, someone at his practice has let him know to adjust his technique to avoid it and make the shot more effective.

LIKE

Let it go folks, the issue has been addressed.

regards
ThorvaldR

As the originator of this forum, I agree with both statements above and end this topic.
I'm going to take the higher road and assume that this particular Novice was having issues with accuracy, but continue on my stance to address any similar situation sooner in the future in an attempt to try to keep everyone happy....it's possible you know....maybe...in my own special little world

[joleicia]

i just wanted to thank everyone whom had a hand in setting up the tourney, this was my second year fighting in it and both times i had some of the best and most memorable days of fighting i can remember , thank you again to countess joleicia i had a great time and made alot of new friends, and would like to help out next year in any way i can

thank you all
john the breeder

You are welcome.

Thank you for being a happy, return customer - I'm serious when I say that it couldn't and wouldn't happen without the crew of enthusiastic participants that keep showing up each year. Any time I hear of those participants who walk away happy and with new friendships it makes me glow and I feel accomplished - that is really what the tourney is for.

I'd definitely appreciate help next year - drag your knight along with you I was glad to have him out too. I'm not sure how many of these I have left in me, but in the same breath can't imagine not running it.

This was the 8th tourney/year, I've got something special planned for 10th.

[rhys]

At a Pennsic a few years back I was hit in the cup 8 times through out the 9 days I was there.. the first two were in the lost boys battle... the guy that speared me in the crotch I told him to aim higher next time please. and when I went and res'd I came back to the line away from said ball hunter... somehow we worked about to the same point again and he speared me from the side in the groin again only a ton harder than before. when I hollered at him to not target peoples cup. His reply was "OH well it's a legal target" I left the field after that.... the other six were through out the next dayz of fighting all unintentional. but it sure made a for a swollen crappy time that's for sure. As for removing the groin as a legal target... Why? still gonna get hit there still gonna hurt whether or not it is a legal or not. I like to use it as a reset button. place my spear tip against the cup and give a little wiggle.. 99% of the time the fighter will walk off and say thanks for not drilling the jewels. done it to a few female fighters to... I profusely apologized for it but they left me no choice. they said thanks and walked off and one asked me out to a party later that night....
it sounds like the situation is well in hand, no need to keep smacking the ball back and forth, ...

Rhys

[Lucas]

Countess Joleicia-

The novice tourney I won three years ago is still, to this day, the most enjoyable tourney I've ever fought in. The camaraderie, chivalry, and simple joy that was displayed that day by all of the combatants is still inspiring. I still have the medallion you gave me, with Sarnac's symbol upon it. This year might not have had ideal behavior from all combatants, but the overall good this tournament does for the beginning fighters is incalculable. Thank you.