The Armour Archive

Like Tascius, I'll give Ursus a lot of the credit. You're sitting there, looking for pictures of yourself, and there's this great shot but your shield hand or shoes or your cooler are all wrong and sticking out like a sore thumb at you. It just makes you want to put the picture right. There've been several things I've done that are directly attributable to Ursus' pictures.

Corby de la Flamme wrote:Ursus!

You're my only hope!

As far as I can tell, I had some sort of invisibility cloak on as far as photographers were concerned all Memorial Day weekend.

Don't worry, Corby. I got you covered. You were indeed looking good, as always, and I got many pictures of you to prove you were actually there.

Of course, you'll have to be patient, as noted above...

Ursus

No worries Ursus. Its not like we have you on a contracted deadline or something.

Ursus, did you take any photos of the rapier fighters at Sapphire?

Tibbie Croser wrote:Ursus, did you take any photos of the rapier fighters at Sapphire?

Only a few, I'm afraid. I find watching and taking pictures of fencing very frustrating, plus I only know a few fencers, so I generally don't end up with many fencing photos. Similarly, archery and thrown weapons I find less than thrilling... or challenging (as a photographer - no criticism intended).

I know a lot of heavy fighters and I enjoy watching their fights, so that's where I take the vast majority of my photos.

And thank you, Cunian. I know you fighters don't need much inspiration, since by and large you all do a great job, but it is often helpful to see an outside perspective and I'm glad my photos provide such an opportunity.

Ursus

Well, I admit we fencers have the bad habit of moving around too much, too fast.

Well, since you asked....

Just posted 236 pics from Sapphire Joust on Saturday: http://www.bogpages.com/SCA-photographs/2011/Sapphire-Joust-Saturday

I'll be posting another gallery from Sunday,,, soon.

A few samples:









Count Vlad lost in the finals, but he still won.

Hope you like the pics.

Ursus

unfortunatly the marshal(s) failed to do their jobs (as did you). if a fighter does not understand, and abide by, the rules he cannot authorize. one of those rules in atlantia (and technically every kingdom since they are pretty simple in coropora that to attend an event one must wear something that looks like pre-17th century attire) is that you cannot take the field in blatantly modern dress. jeans and tennis shoes are about as blatantly modern as things can be. he should have read the rules, you should have guided him, and the marshals should have enforced those same rules. those rules are now over nine years old.

the marshals, during the armour inspection, should have stopped and given him the opportunity to correct the situation. one of the first questions asked usually is "are you familiar with the rules of the list and the conventions of combat". if someone in jeans and tennis shoes says "yes" they are either lying and have not read the rules or they have and they simply do not care. you can certainly see why this is a problem. we cannot choose which rules to ignore can we? hopefully this will be corrected by him, you will better instruct new fighters you take under your care, and the marshallate will do a better job at their job. i would hate for him to show up at an event all excited about fighting only to run into a competant marshal who fails his inspection. im sure you would agree.

regards
logan

Maximus Atreus Of Rome wrote:

Sorry to sound dense here, but what does this peer pressure sound like?

At Defending the Gate, one of my new fighters who authorized that day was told, and I quote to the best of my ability;

"Your Plastic is showing. You should cover it up before it gets scratched."

She was going easy on him though, he was also in jeans and nikes! He'll be much better dressed this weekend and highland river melee. Its hard to convince college students to invest in a sport they havent qualified for yet, but a little self-counciousness goes a long way.

On this we are in complete agreement!


Thor-

dukelogan wrote:unfortunatly the marshal(s) failed to do their jobs (as did you). if a fighter does not understand, and abide by, the rules he cannot authorize. one of those rules in atlantia (and technically every kingdom since they are pretty simple in coropora that to attend an event one must wear something that looks like pre-17th century attire) is that you cannot take the field in blatantly modern dress. jeans and tennis shoes are about as blatantly modern as things can be. he should have read the rules, you should have guided him, and the marshals should have enforced those same rules. those rules are now over nine years old.

the marshals, during the armour inspection, should have stopped and given him the opportunity to correct the situation. one of the first questions asked usually is "are you familiar with the rules of the list and the conventions of combat". if someone in jeans and tennis shoes says "yes" they are either lying and have not read the rules or they have and they simply do not care. you can certainly see why this is a problem. we cannot choose which rules to ignore can we? hopefully this will be corrected by him, you will better instruct new fighters you take under your care, and the marshallate will do a better job at their job. i would hate for him to show up at an event all excited about fighting only to run into a competant marshal who fails his inspection. im sure you would agree.

regards
logan

Maximus Atreus Of Rome wrote:

Sorry to sound dense here, but what does this peer pressure sound like?

At Defending the Gate, one of my new fighters who authorized that day was told, and I quote to the best of my ability;

"Your Plastic is showing. You should cover it up before it gets scratched."

She was going easy on him though, he was also in jeans and nikes! He'll be much better dressed this weekend and highland river melee. Its hard to convince college students to invest in a sport they havent qualified for yet, but a little self-counciousness goes a long way.

meaning?

logan

[quote="Thorstenn"]On this we are in complete agreement!


Thor-

[quote="dukelogan"]unfortunatly the marshal(s) failed to do their jobs (as did you). if a fighter does not understand, and abide by, the rules he cannot authorize. one of those rules in atlantia (and technically every kingdom since they are pretty simple in coropora that to attend an event one must wear something that looks like pre-17th century attire) is that you cannot take the field in blatantly modern dress. jeans and tennis shoes are about as blatantly modern as things can be. he should have read the rules, you should have guided him, and the marshals should have enforced those same rules. those rules are now over nine years old.

the marshals, during the armour inspection, should have stopped and given him the opportunity to correct the situation. one of the first questions asked usually is "are you familiar with the rules of the list and the conventions of combat". if someone in jeans and tennis shoes says "yes" they are either lying and have not read the rules or they have and they simply do not care. you can certainly see why this is a problem. we cannot choose which rules to ignore can we? hopefully this will be corrected by him, you will better instruct new fighters you take under your care, and the marshallate will do a better job at their job. i would hate for him to show up at an event all excited about fighting only to run into a competant marshal who fails his inspection. im sure you would agree.

regards
logan

Woo-hoo, Oscad and I made the front page!

UrsusofAnglesey wrote:

And what a great action shot! Although Aradd might not want to put that one on a coffee mug...

UrsusofAnglesey wrote:

Great job, as always, Ursus. You capture us at our best.

Ursus, thanks for the great photos of the Baron and Baroness of Storvik!

Oscad, I love you bro....but damn...get that knight of yours to get you some stainless!

Leo Medii wrote:Oscad, I love you bro....but damn...get that knight of yours to get you some stainless!

Nah..."russet" is period

Quote:
Sorry to sound dense here, but what does this peer pressure sound like?


At Defending the Gate, one of my new fighters who authorized that day was told, and I quote to the best of my ability;

"Your Plastic is showing. You should cover it up before it gets scratched."

She was going easy on him though, he was also in jeans and nikes! He'll be much better dressed this weekend at highland river melee. Its hard to convince college students to invest in a sport they havent qualified for yet, but a little self-counciousness goes a long way.


dukelogan wrote:
unfortunatly the marshal(s) failed to do their jobs (as did you). if a fighter does not understand, and abide by, the rules he cannot authorize. one of those rules in atlantia (and technically every kingdom since they are pretty simple in coropora that to attend an event one must wear something that looks like pre-17th century attire) is that you cannot take the field in blatantly modern dress. jeans and tennis shoes are about as blatantly modern as things can be. he should have read the rules, you should have guided him, and the marshals should have enforced those same rules. those rules are now over nine years old.

the marshals, during the armour inspection, should have stopped and given him the opportunity to correct the situation. one of the first questions asked usually is "are you familiar with the rules of the list and the conventions of combat". if someone in jeans and tennis shoes says "yes" they are either lying and have not read the rules or they have and they simply do not care. you can certainly see why this is a problem. we cannot choose which rules to ignore can we? hopefully this will be corrected by him, you will better instruct new fighters you take under your care, and the marshallate will do a better job at their job. i would hate for him to show up at an event all excited about fighting only to run into a competant marshal who fails his inspection. im sure you would agree.

regards
logan

Wow, thank you for you thorough and guiding reply. Although I'm glad you were so verbose since it helps to set a clear tone for myself and the community as a whole, I think I pretty much already covered every point in your reply in my original statement, except for one; Him taking the field dressed as he was. You'll be happy to note that he didnt take the field that day for any scheduled events, he only authorized (which everyone of course has to do before being allowed to take the field). And I'm sure you'll be glad to know, he was dressed much better at highland river melee, his first event where he took to the field.

I'm sorry I was so unclear as to the specific circumstances of the situation, I was trying to keep it short. I suppose I hoped that since I was clearly pointing out a fault of my own and my new fighter, and describing how encouraging a polite comment can be toward getting someone to improve on their investment in our community, that a reader could assume that we are aware of said short-comings (since I am clearly owning them), and that we are trying (and succeeding) to remedy them. I aimed to openly put myself forward as an example for others in a similar situation to encourage them to provide their new fighters with their own share of direction and expectation so as to avoid a similar situation where they show up to their first event without proper attire, and end up not being able to participate in the day's events. Thank you for adding to that effort.

UrsusofAnglesey wrote:Count Vlad lost in the finals, but he still won.

Hope you like the pics.

Ursus

As sweet as that sentiment is my friend, you are incorrect. Count Vlad won the final round, defeating Duke Ragnarr to win the Ruby Prize.

Lord Mathieu of Tir-Y-Don claimed the Sapphire Chivalry Prize.

BdeB wrote:

UrsusofAnglesey wrote:Count Vlad lost in the finals, but he still won.

Hope you like the pics.

Ursus

As sweet as that sentiment is my friend, you are incorrect. Count Vlad won the final round, defeating Duke Ragnarr to win the Ruby Prize.

Lord Mathieu of Tir-Y-Don claimed the Sapphire Chivalry Prize.

Bah! As always, Bryce, stealing my best lines.

My apologies to Vlad.

You know, I can watch a whole tourney through my lens and still not know what's going on. It's like watching through a telescope sometimes, only seeing a very small part of the whole. And I get so focused on what I'm doing I'm constantly asking other spectators what's going on.

Not really a good excuse, though. I blame senility.

Ursus

Leo Medii wrote:Oscad, I love you bro....but damn...get that knight of yours to get you some stainless!

I have rarely felt as self conscious about my armor and gear, as I did that day in Atlantia. (And solely based on trying to 'fit in', no one said anything negative.)

But my good friend, you can be relieved to hear that I have brand new Crecy style knees/elbows/shoulders/enclosed greaves (all stainless). I am simply waiting for my gamboised cuisses to arrive so I can get the kit put together. Oh, and I also just picked up some Mac gauntlets too....

I *may* even finally have a kit I good enough for the CotT

Oscad wrote:

Leo Medii wrote:Oscad, I love you bro....but damn...get that knight of yours to get you some stainless!

I have rarely felt as self conscious about my armor and gear, as I did that day in Atlantia. (And solely based on trying to 'fit in', no one said anything negative.)

But my good friend, you can be relieved to hear that I have brand new Crecy style knees/elbows/shoulders/enclosed greaves (all stainless). I am simply waiting for my gamboised cuisses to arrive so I can get the kit put together. Oh, and I also just picked up some Mac gauntlets too....

I *may* even finally have a kit I good enough for the CotT

You made my day Sir. And...I wish we looked as good as the pics of that event. Try as I might I just could not see a cooler, foldy camp chair or plastic pop up. I am envious to be sure.

You should come some time Leo. You and your lovely lady could be my guest.

UrsusofAnglesey wrote:My apologies to Vlad.

Not really a good excuse, though. I blame senility.

Ursus

While you can milk that senility angle, Ursus (for those that will believe it), you probably just transposed the outcome of Crown for Sapphire. Vlad's on fire this season. Woe to those who draw him in the lists!

Oscad,
It was great to have you hanging out with us and I enjoyed our pickups.

Dietrich-that would be a great coffee mug, with the caption of "Today you should remember to block."

-Aradd

Aradd wrote:Oscad,
It was great to have you hanging out with us and I enjoyed our pickups.

Dietrich-that would be a great coffee mug, with the caption of "Today you should remember to block."

-Aradd

Hahah, yeah, I love those SCA Motivational Posters. I think my favorite is the "Knee to the Groin: Because Mean and Funny is Still Funny" picture, though I can't seem to find it now.

And there are pictures of me, umm, not exactly at my best, out there too. Ursus got some great ones from the 5-man melee at Gulf Wars, where I'm the only guy left on my team and Nissan's boys just drill me. And another one where my sword is hovering in mid-air in front of me, after I hit a guy and lost my grip.

Ursus;
I really need to fly you out here for some Drakenwald events.

MalcolmdeMoffat wrote:Ursus;
I really need to fly you out here for some Drakenwald events.

Someday, I would really, really love to do that. I look forward to shooting an SCA event in or near an actual castle. Besides, I haven't been to Europe in over 20 years, and being a history buff as well as a photographer, it would be a blast to just wander around with my camera at some of the more touristy places (I've never been to Stonehenge, for example, or the whole island of Ireland, not to mention the REAL isle of Anglesey in Wales).

Heck, I'd love to go to Lillies, Estrella and the Great Western War also. Not to mention some of the larger kingdom or inter-kingdom events, like Blackstone Raids (which I missed this year), Border Wars in the Mid, Diamond Wars in Glen Abhan, the war down in Texas with the castle (I forget the name of the event), and probably a dozen more I may not even be aware of.

It's a question of finances and time. I'm not poor, but neither am I wealthy, being a mid-level government employee. One trip a year overseas (or to the West Coast, where some Anglesey members and my liege Lord now live) I could probably afford, but I'm using up every scrap of leave I have to attend Pennsic and Gulf Wars and occasional (sort of) local events (like War of the Wings in North Carolina, a 6 hour drive for me, so I need an extra day for travel).

I've actually considered retiring early so I could start traveling sooner, but I really can't swing that. I have 6 more years of collecting a government paycheck, and then I'm free (barring a health crisis or huge unexpected bills). A lot of my work colleagues wonder what they're going to do after they retire, and many work longer than they have to "just to keep busy". I don't have that problem, as I've got more projects on my plate that I can handle right now, and so many plans I sometimes despair I'll ever get to them. I even gave up on-line video games, which I love but are ultimately a terrific waste of time, and that was even harder than giving up drinking (a psychiatrist could probably have a field day with that one).

So yes, Malcolm, I would really love to come (despite the fact that I hate airplanes). Maybe I could squeeze out a week (and the funds) in the next year or so, but to go for less than a week would be silly, IMHO. If I can, I will try to work my vacation around some Drachenwald event, like Raglan fair. To make it all work, I'd probably have to start planning itineraries about a year in advance, so who knows? Maybe you'll get an email from me someday asking which event would be best. Not this year, probably. Maybe not next. But someday...

Thanks to all of you for your kind words. I'm still working on Sunday's pics for Sapphire, but it seems unlikely now I will get them posted before this weekend as I had hoped.

When I finish that, I have more more pics from Highland River Melees (which even I have not seen yet, although they are almost 2 weeks old now), and I will be attending Storvik Novice Tourney (local event - yay!) this weekend to take even more pics and hang out with my friends. Thankfully (or sadly), that will probably be it until Pennsic. Which, to me, is the 2nd best photo op in the SCA (after Gulf Wars, though it's a close race). Last year I took 13,000 pictures at Pennsic, and I'll probably take something similar this year. Just saying that makes me cringe knowing how overwhelmed I will feel after I come home, but I also enjoy working on the pics, so it's kind of a bittersweet feeling.

So many photos to take, so little time... but I have to confess, I am still enjoying the hell out of it (most of the time).

Thanks to all of you for your great garb, armor, fighting, tents, camps, and all the little intangibles that go into making SCA events such fun for me and everyone else. I know I say that often, but I repeat it because I really mean it.

Ursus

We go after the low hanging fruit. Combat boots that are muted in appearence won't get comment. Sneakers, Hells yeah- ruins my Ursus photo op! That by the way is I think the real reason why kits have improved. Yes we use peer pressure to up the look but frankly,...if Ursus sees to much modern he dosn't take the picture. If you have a nice kit, Ursus takes extra shots. Who dosn't like extra shots. Lastly- if you look like ass in a photo, you know it. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Here is the link to the photos- you can see a progression over the ten years+ that Ursus has been taking shots.

http://www.bogpages.com/SCA-photographs

I can second this... I bought a 800$ helm to go with a kit that Ursus would take pictures of!

Gaston de Clermont wrote:Sorry to sound dense here, but what does this peer pressure sound like? Do folks just make cool stuff and inspire others to keep up by doing that? Because I see cool stuff here, I make some cool stuff, and only a smallish fraction of people think it's cool enough to copy it. What's different in Atlantia?

I think that you've underestimated your influence on more recent newbies. You, Martel, and Maelgwyn have done a good job of getting people into good starter kits (no duct tape plastic armor in my cohort) and continuously encouraging us to continue to upgrade. If you'd told me two years ago I'd be doing research on anything but embroidery, I probably wouldn't have believed you. But here I am, looking at effigies, paintings and museum pictures, trying to make a Plan - and I'm enjoying it. I'm even now thinking about how to replace my *chairs* ahem.

I'm not saying the problem is solved, but I *do* think that you (and other like-minded locals) are making progress. I think it just takes a while (and probably a couple of cohorts of newbies) to really change a local culture.

If the local culture of Atlantia encourages people to plan for non-modern, then my question is how do they enable it? Because you can tell people to upgrade, but for new skills and new ideas people generally need some assistance. The biggest progress I've seen here comes from informal workshop nights and guild meetings - there's lots of teaching, people share resources, and stuff gets made. Do y'all have a more effective system? How do you get people up to speed in Atlantia? Do most projects happen by individual effort or group effort? Is it lead by guilds, households, individuals, other?

- Helene von Braunschweyg

Thanks, Helene. It's great to know more folks care. I'd love to hear more about what's working in Atlantia too.

it starts as soon as they begin training since they are required to meet the appearance standards when they authorize. we have had a scant few failings on enforcement but they are very rare and work is being done to better educate the marshallate. when the appearance law was put in place almost 9 years ago 95% of folks were already in compliance except for footware which was more around the 65% mark. it took very little time for that to change and its been the norm for most of the past 8 or so years.

when a new fighter shows up and starts to put his/her kit together they do so with those requirements in mind. they see how easy it is to do and ive seen many of them take giant leaps beyond merely complying because they have both pride in their kits but also a vested interest in its appearance and upkeep.

regards
logan

helene wrote:

Gaston de Clermont wrote:Sorry to sound dense here, but what does this peer pressure sound like? Do folks just make cool stuff and inspire others to keep up by doing that? Because I see cool stuff here, I make some cool stuff, and only a smallish fraction of people think it's cool enough to copy it. What's different in Atlantia?

I think that you've underestimated your influence on more recent newbies. You, Martel, and Maelgwyn have done a good job of getting people into good starter kits (no duct tape plastic armor in my cohort) and continuously encouraging us to continue to upgrade. If you'd told me two years ago I'd be doing research on anything but embroidery, I probably wouldn't have believed you. But here I am, looking at effigies, paintings and museum pictures, trying to make a Plan - and I'm enjoying it. I'm even now thinking about how to replace my *chairs* ahem.

I'm not saying the problem is solved, but I *do* think that you (and other like-minded locals) are making progress. I think it just takes a while (and probably a couple of cohorts of newbies) to really change a local culture.

If the local culture of Atlantia encourages people to plan for non-modern, then my question is how do they enable it? Because you can tell people to upgrade, but for new skills and new ideas people generally need some assistance. The biggest progress I've seen here comes from informal workshop nights and guild meetings - there's lots of teaching, people share resources, and stuff gets made. Do y'all have a more effective system? How do you get people up to speed in Atlantia? Do most projects happen by individual effort or group effort? Is it lead by guilds, households, individuals, other?

- Helene von Braunschweyg

As a newcomer, I was indoctrinated very early with the mantra "No exposed plastic ANYWHERE" which does a LOT to cut down on ugly. While fancy authentic wooden chairs are nice, as a newcomer a simple viking chair, while not remotely period, blends into the background very easily. Hiding coolers is easy with a little bit of fabric, and they typically get stuck behind the dayshade, and any armour bags are stuck back their too.

helene wrote:

Gaston de Clermont wrote:
If the local culture of Atlantia encourages people to plan for non-modern, then my question is how do they enable it? Because you can tell people to upgrade, but for new skills and new ideas people generally need some assistance. The biggest progress I've seen here comes from informal workshop nights and guild meetings - there's lots of teaching, people share resources, and stuff gets made. Do y'all have a more effective system? How do you get people up to speed in Atlantia? Do most projects happen by individual effort or group effort? Is it lead by guilds, households, individuals, other?

- Helene von Braunschweyg

Speaking for my area (Hidden Mountain) we have frequent A & S days focusing on things such as: Benches, Simple tunics and dresses and similar things. Everyone gets together and either learns how to make something or gets to make something and take it home with them. We also tend to bring extra blankets and such to cover camp chairs for those who don't have period seating.

Gaston de Clermont wrote:Thanks, Helene. It's great to know more folks care. I'd love to hear more about what's working in Atlantia too.

Shes right Sir Gaston ... you inspire more people than you realize.

Sorry to sound dense here, but what does this peer pressure sound like?

It sounds a lot like "Why have I called you over here?" <look down, realize I have my tennis shoes on, and not my boots>

I have not forgotten to change footwear after the drive (it's impossible to drive the minivan in the Mongol boots) since that incident - and have reminded others of the same kinds of things with a "Dude, boots." or a "Hey, your euphemism is showing."

My lady-wife is a *huge* proponent of this, so we strive to remove/cover/replace as much as we can, and ensure the kids are in garb as well.
Recently, she began replacing all of the toys the kids bring to events with wooden ones - so they are at least a little less jarring, too. Some of that is setting the expectation with them that "these toys are for events" - so they are special.

dukelogan wrote:it starts as soon as they begin training since they are required to meet the appearance standards when they authorize.

I think people misunderstand how much this approach *HELPS* the new fighter. Many folks want to let new fighters 'ease into' it, or take it a 'step at a time'. From my experience, this does a great disservice to the new fighter.

It is much much easier to make decent appearing armor from the beginning, rather than make some crud armor, and then try and go back to make it look decent after you have authorized; or worse yet, need to make another entire set so it can look decent.

This is why I am against those 'six month grace period' type rules for newly authorized fighters. It just puts another onerous task in front of them once they finally get enough kit together to authorize. If we expect (and assist) them to get their armor correct the first time, it will give them a much easier time.

atlantia doesnt allow a grace period for new authorizations (again, sometimes this is ignored but is being addressed). folks that move into the kingdom are allowed a short period of time to correct their failings although most kingdoms are pretty close to adherance anyway.

the notion of "easing" a new fighter into it implies that a new fighter cannot simply make a new kit without exposed modern items. it implies that a new kit must have exposed modern items. this makes no sense at all. its such a simple process and it actually follows the rules that have been in place for decades. those rules clearly state a pre-17th century appearance. no blue jeans, no tennis shoes, etc etc. those are not, in any way at all, in compliance with those rules. of course neither are coleman chairs..........

regards
logan

Oscad wrote:

dukelogan wrote:it starts as soon as they begin training since they are required to meet the appearance standards when they authorize.

I think people misunderstand how much this approach *HELPS* the new fighter. Many folks want to let new fighters 'ease into' it, or take it a 'step at a time'. From my experience, this does a great disservice to the new fighter.

It is much much easier to make decent appearing armor from the beginning, rather than make some crud armor, and then try and go back to make it look decent after you have authorized; or worse yet, need to make another entire set so it can look decent.

This is why I am against those 'six month grace period' type rules for newly authorized fighters. It just puts another onerous task in front of them once they finally get enough kit together to authorize. If we expect (and assist) them to get their armor correct the first time, it will give them a much easier time.