Query: Damascus Falchions

[Zetheros]

So I'll be forging two 3' long fantasy-styled falchions in the near future. Since I have an excess of spring leafs, I was thinking of making the edges out of the springs. Is this a good idea, or is spring steel from a leaf spring too soft to form a keen edge?

The leaf springs were bought at a scrapyard, and I don't really have a clue as to what the alloy number is, but they're quite flexible and hard. They left marks in my cheap sledge hammer when I tried to straighten them out.

[owen matthew]

Probably post this in the design and construction forum.

[raito]

We can't possibly know for sure. You don't know what the alloy is (which is why scrapyard stuff sucks for this). Therefore, you can't predict accurately the effects of a particular heat treat.

Also, if your hammer was damaged trying to straighten them, you either tried to do that cold, in which case you might want to consider learning something about metals (and likely smithing), or you tried to straighten them hot, in which case you have the cheapest hammer I've ever heard about.

Whenever I hear this question (and it's way too often), what I hear is,"I want to use some material, but I'm not going to tell you what it is, because I don't know, for this purpose. Will it work?" How the heck would we know?

In any case, on those occasions when I have welded a single piece of steel as an edge in a pattern-welded piece (because it would be pretty stupid to do that with wootz), I have used plain 10 series steels to good effect. But then, the patterned bodies have also been nothing but 10 series and wrought iron.

As for keen edges, any ferrous metal will take a keen edge, hardened or unhardened. Hardness has nothing to do with how sharp you can make something. It does have something to do with how long that edge lasts.

[losthelm]

If you wacked the spring with a sledge hardenuff to mare your hammer you probibly jepordized the micro crystalin structure in the spring. IE it might shatter like glass when you quench the blade.

What are these fantasy style swords going to be used for?
If they are just wall hangers or display pieces don't worry about it and leave the leaf springs alone.
If your selling these for use in test cutting or other applications I would sugest investing in known materials, It makes a huge difference in the final product quality.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Probably post this in the design and construction forum.

Why would he post a question about a medieval weapon on the Armor- Design and Construction page rather than the Medieval Combat and Weapons page?

[Baron Alcyoneus]

You can probably make the assumption that the leaf spring is similar to 5160, and very good for making knives. That is what I've read in various books/magazines about blade making.

It is a spring, and has to have enough carbon to heat treat to become one.

[Patrick]

I hate to burst bubbles, but I'm going to have to say something here. If you have not made enough knives to know what steel does when you hit it and how hot it has to be when you do, you really are not ready for making swords. Don't do the Blankenshield thing of whacking leaf springs flat to make a sword. It can destroy your spring, your hammer, and your credibility with those who know how to make steel into blades.

I've been making knives as a hobby for almost 20 years. I don't make swords. Lots of knife makers have discovered that swords are a completely different beast when it comes to actually making them. They are not just big knives.

Make a few knives out of your leaf springs. Test them. Destructively. Make a sword and test it. You will now know the answers to your own questions about suitability of steel for your uses. Ask specific questions (ie. heat-treatment processes that avoid your first couple of failures, testing procedures, ideas for handles and sheaths, and so on) that come up from your experiments.

If you follow this advice, you will do two things. You will educate yourself about the real process of blade smithing. You will also derive greater satisfaction and enjoyment in what you make.

-Patrick

[polarbearforge]

If you have not made enough knives to know what steel does when you hit it and how hot it has to be when you do, you really are not ready for making swords.

Wise words. Please listen to them.

More than likely, the spring would work fine. IF you know the alloy and IF it doesn't have microfractures, and IF it's heat treated properly.

Jamie

[Zetheros]

Thanks everyone for the comments, I think that I should have said I was straightening them cold. It worked to a certain degree, but the process was slow. I'm sure once I heat the leaf springs in a forge to straighten them further, and give them a nice curve at the end, any possible microfractures would have welded back together. I spent the entirety of yesterday reading up on several blacksmithing and swordsmithing books as you folks suggested, namely "The Complete Bladesmith" by Jim Hrisoulas and "The Modern Blacksmith" by Alexander G. Weygers.

For heat treating, I think I might do something similar to the japanese process of making katanas; using differential heating to make a harder blade, and a springy damascus spine.

This is also my first time making anything from a forge, but I like the challenge of building something that requires great skill right from the start

[Konstantin the Red]

Where in The Compleat Bladesmith did you miss that it takes about thirty or forty knives' worth of experience, increasing stepwise in length, to make a sword blade? That is more or less what Hrisoulas wrote.

Blades become more technically demanding as they get longer. Problems handling and forming multiply with each additional blade inch. One's first knife should have a blade two inches or shorter, the next one up (whenever you try it) three inches, and so forth until you're reliably up to giant bowies. Blades are okay, making finished knives of these is educational in the finishing, hilting, and scabbarding areas. Then you might essay a couple of gladiuses hispanienses. And see if you've built it so it holds together.

A single edge falchion blade will resemble a single edge knife blade in one particular: the curled-up step where the part that will become the edge bevel is on the inside of the curve. The process of beating out the edge bevel will uncurl that piece of metal.

The hammerwork for a two-edge blade is radically different, relying on keeping the number of hammer blows to either side of the blade's centerline the same, so that the metal's interior has the same degree of stresses everywhere and thus stays straight and does not warp.

The work-up process you were describing isn't damascus, but a more Western sort of component assembly. Which works IF your welding is that good -- no cold-shuts anywhere. If you can forge-weld that kind of quality, you've got a big future ahead of you. If you haven't yet, you have a way to go beforehand.

You can't expect heating it to red to close up a microfracture if that's all you do. You still have to set up the conditions for fusion (forge) welding by hammering it too. You are also going to find out in short order if your steel pieces are red-short -- that is, if they crumble into fragments if hit with a hammer when red hot. These cooperate much better at yellow or yellow-orange heat, and have to be worked that hot and not colder. Test with a small piece. You did no good banging on those pieces cold.

[Zetheros]

Hmm.

Alright, maybe I should start out with making a small pattern welded knives first. They'd make great gifts anyway. I know I'll be making a mercy dagger to complete my outfit, so maybe I'll work on that after making several knives.

[Patrick]

Zetheros, we really are not trying to dampen your enthusiasm. We are trying to give you very important advice that several of us earned the hard way. We are trying to help you succeed.

Make a simple knife with plain steel first. This is a huge step, actually. Treasure that knife. Make another blade and test it destructively. Can it cut an acceptable number of times on whatever you want to cut and still bend to 45 degrees without breaking? Takes a while to get there. The American Bladesmith Society expects a Journeyman to be able to make knives that bend to 90 without breaking, cut through a 2x4 multiple times and still shave hair from the arm, and still have a nice level of fit and finish. And most of the ABS smiths don't do swords at all.

Have fun with it!

-Patrick

[InsaneIrish]

A 36" long Falchion is going to weigh a TON.

[J.G.Elmslie]

A 36" long Falchion is going to weigh a TON.

depends on if you mean 36" blade, or 36" overall. the Thorpe falchion is 37.5" total, and weighs only about 2 1/4 lbs.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that falchions are clumsy, thick, machete-like cleavers, when the reality is they're regularly almost the same weight as equivalent swords. the conyers falchion is incredibly thin in distal profile - much of the last 1/3rd of the blade is only about 1.5mm (1/16th inch) thick.

[Zetheros]

"The American Bladesmith Society expects a Journeyman to be able to make knives that bend to 90 without breaking, cut through a 2x4 multiple times and still shave hair from the arm, and still have a nice level of fit and finish." Wow. knives can actually do that? I can see a sword bending 90 degrees, but not a normal "6 knife.

"A 36" long Falchion is going to weigh a TON."

Well, including pommel, grip, and hilt.

[Patrick]

Yeah, knives can do that. It takes a lot of work and a lot of study to get it consistent, but that's why being an ABS Journeyman really means something. By the way, in order to test for master, you submit a damascus blade to do the same things. There are also several other knives that you submit to show that your fit, finish, attention to detail, and general aesthetic is up to the level of a master craftsman.

I'm not in the ABS, but I can make a knife that will cut twice through a 2x4 and bend to at least 45 degrees. It is a worthy goal to shoot for.

If you are gung-ho to jump right into swords, go for it. But don't say you were not warned!

-Patrick

[Zetheros]

Yeah, I'll probably make something smaller at first. No sense in wasting material if I do mess up.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Material is cheap compared to the time involved in making it.

And material is really cheap compared to getting discouraged by attempting something far beyond your beginning level of skill.

[Konstantin the Red]

Learn PATIENCE and you will go far.

Expert swordsmiths make it look pretty easy -- and for them, it is pretty easy. They've been practicing it for ten years. Log that kind of time, take that kind of care, and it'll be pretty easy for you too.

[J.G.Elmslie]

yeah, yeah, patience. how long'll that take?

(sorry, could'nt resist)


inclined to agree. take time, expect to start small, and build the skills, before you make the big stuff...

[Baron Alcyoneus]

How long does it take to make X?

15 minutes. And 30 years of practice.

[Konstantin the Red]

Yeah, I'll probably make something smaller at first. No sense in wasting material if I do mess up.

Materials cost is the smallest of the concerns.

Give your failures due regard as well as your successes. Failures are actually your ugly friends: their value is in what they taught you. As long as you learned something -- even if it is only what not to do -- a failed effort is not a wasted effort. Cuss about it a little and go on. Failures are less comfortable than triumphs, and less fun -- but as the inevitable steps forward towards the goal of success they are even more valuable than the successes.

If necessary, write Thomas Edison's lightbulb quote on your workbench with a Sharpie.

[hivemind]

I'm a new knifemaker, and thus far I haven't even tried to forge my own blades. I'm having enough fun just buying blanks and building those so far, plus there's no way I'm getting a forge into my little suburban house's basement.

Everything the above guys said is right on, man. Make small knives to learn. Buy some inexpensive blanks and practice with them how to put on handles (full tang and hidden tang), mill brass and nickel silver into fittings, guards and bolsters, learn how to finish different kinds of wood... just that is enough to keep me busy. I can't even imagine trying to learn all the intricacies of heat treating, etc.

Maybe I have too many hobbies though...

[Konstantin the Red]

Suzerain: yes -- let us prayerfully consider the example of Ed Gruberman... and not get spattered with the vinegar of hostility or something... Ommmmmm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjo_bWOILjY

Good performance of Tai Kwan Leep + Boot To The Head

Any more, I think the line should run "People not voting Re-pub-li-can -- give them a Boot to the Head!"

That's funny -- you can easily segué from "Boot to the Head" to "Tequila." But if there's a lesson in that, I don't think I'll get an A.

[Godric of Castlemont]

The American Bladesmith Society expects a Journeyman to be able to make knives that bend to 90 without breaking, cut through a 2x4 multiple times and still shave hair from the arm, and still have a nice level of fit and finish. And most of the ABS smiths don't do swords at all.

Always had a problem with this style of testing. Yes you can make a knife that can do that but that only means you can make the very specific style of blade to pass that test. What about a surgical scalpel? No matter how finely made it could never be a good scalpel and pass that test, ditto for a vast number of other blades.

Making a good blade does not mean you are a good bladesmith, it means you made a good blade.

Zetheros, making weapons is a very fun hobby and there are not enough people out there who make quality items in the re-enactment world. So by all means give it a try, but it is very long road from where we all must start to where we all wold like to be. Make sure to post some images of your work in progress for us.