Possible replacement for hay bales

[InsaneIrish]

Looking at some of the options on that page, the "stackable barriers" and the "water filled safety barricade" look like they have some potential. Still, we're looking at $40 per linear foot for the stackable and $20 /lf for the "safety barricade". I would suggest the "military tan" color option.

But, here's a thought. What are the chances a manufacturer might be willing to make some special "stone look" versions as a promotional tax-deductible donation to a 501(c)(3) corporation? It's not an impossibility that we might get a couple hundred feet donated, if the right approach were used. And these things ought to be able to stand "storing" by just relocating them to an out of the way area on the property, no protection from the elements needed...

You might want to consider space as well. Those things take up A LOT of real estate. If people were worried about storage of my colapsable walls, storing those is gonna be a stone bitch.

I'm also not so sure about how well 100lbs will hold up to a 300lbs fighter crashing into it. Not that it will break, but I think movement will be an issue.

[Kilkenny]

Looking at some of the options on that page, the "stackable barriers" and the "water filled safety barricade" look like they have some potential. Still, we're looking at $40 per linear foot for the stackable and $20 /lf for the "safety barricade". I would suggest the "military tan" color option.

But, here's a thought. What are the chances a manufacturer might be willing to make some special "stone look" versions as a promotional tax-deductible donation to a 501(c)(3) corporation? It's not an impossibility that we might get a couple hundred feet donated, if the right approach were used. And these things ought to be able to stand "storing" by just relocating them to an out of the way area on the property, no protection from the elements needed...

You might want to consider space as well. Those things take up A LOT of real estate. If people were worried about storage of my colapsable walls, storing those is gonna be a stone bitch.

I'm also not so sure about how well 100lbs will hold up to a 300lbs fighter crashing into it. Not that it will break, but I think movement will be an issue.

Storage for wooden walls that really are going to need weather protection is different from stackable plastic chunks that can just be left out. In real estate terms, they're not a drop in the bucket. If they had to be under cover, it would be a different question.

Many if not most of them have some sort of option for staking them down - and in comparison to haybales, I don't think there's any question these would hold up better.

Consider where and how to use them. They're not substitutes for town walls, but they're a pretty good looking option for bridges, imo. While the big wooden fences make for decent town walls and are out of place for bridges...

I don't think we're going to find one universal solution that's actually an improvement on haybales

[Maeryk]

Can you make tax deductible donations to SCA, Inc?

[Kilkenny]

or just donate the tan versions they already have, perhaps donate some that don't fully meet standards? Might be the best idea.

I would say have someone persuasive get in touch, make a pitch for the whole custom shebang, and when that doesn't fly, be prepared with something along the above lines as a fall back proposition.

also, maybe there's someplace where they send these things when they're no longer up to snuff for road/safety use and we could find out about that and get some at hugely reduced cost ....

[blackbow]

I'll get on that.

edit: sent request for quote.

WLYK

Blackbow

[Sean Powell]

Since this is a brain exercise more then anything else (ok Blackbow requested a quote but he doesn't have a budget and even buying enough for 5 bridges isn't a major order when cities buy enough for temporary lane control of real bridges) If aesthetics is the next biggest concern then 'paint it' is only one existing solution for dealing with plastic. There is also 'throw a tabard over it. Imagine a 40' long roll of X wide canvas (Does Sunforger come in Grey?) with black stenciled stone work on it. Add gromets every few feet and bungie cord the things in place.

Honestly I think you are looking at this the wrong way since you are looking at the retail supplier for these and as a plastic product their raw material price is tied to the price of oil. You want surplus going out of business sources. Budget cuts have every municipality I know of looking for alternate revenue streams and some township might be sitting on a few hundred (40' bridge, 4' barrier, 2 sides of the bridge, 5 bridges = 100 pieces?) that it has no intention of using for the next decade and may be OSHA obsolete by then? Buy surplus.

Is their a 'Craigs List' for towns and cities?

How large of a flat-bead trailer is needed to haul 100 pieces? What would the coopers charge to store a trailer with these on it? What is the cost of a trailer and who would insure each year that the tires aren't flat, the bearings aren't frozen and arrange for it to be transported the night before and after the appropriate battles? I can carry a hay-bale. I can lift 100lbs if it has handles. I'm not inclined to carry multiple 100lb barrier pieces around for setup every evening.

Sean

[InsaneIrish]

Storage for wooden walls that really are going to need weather protection is different from stackable plastic chunks that can just be left out. In real estate terms, they're not a drop in the bucket. If they had to be under cover, it would be a different question.

Would the coopers allow us to have 200+ plastic K rails sitting out on their land all year?
What about Theft? If WE can pick one up then a few thieves and a dark night could too.

While the big wooden fences make for decent town walls and are out of place for bridges...

Why do you think that a 2 part wooden fence: 2, 3-4ft high sections that can be stacked to create 1, 6-8ft tall wall. Or left at 3-4ft high to make a low barrier. Would not make a decent bridge wall?
Example:

I=6ft upright
xx=3ft tall 6ft wide wall section

IxxIxxIxxIxxIxxIxxIxxI

I would think that set up would look pretty close to a real medieval bridge wall.

I don't think we're going to find one universal solution that's actually an improvement on haybales

I agree on the universal solution part.
And I am not trying to specifically argue with you.
As stated, just exercising my brain with you.

[Kilkenny]

Sean, perhaps you missed my further musings that there might be a source for "used" barriers and that such should be explored.
I think the cloth cover would look pretty hideous, personally.
Trailer would run app. $120 per year but I think it would be more likely that we would store them on the ground and get one of the tractors with a flatbed trailer to make a few runs to pull them out at the start and put them away at the end of the event.

Irish - Whether the Coopers would let us keep them on their property I don't know for sure. If we let them utilize the barriers for other events, it might help on that front.

I'm not sure I've seen any representation of a wooden bridge in period. Lots of stone ones have survived. So, yeah, for me the wooden palisade look does not read "medieval bridge" and a low stone wall (even made out of safety barriers ) comes much closer.

As for theft - consider for a moment all of the trailers laden with people's gear sitting out there at Cooper's Lake right now. What prevents someone from just hauling off a trailer, or opening one up and taking the contents ? I'm not sure what about a bunch of K-rails would make them a more desirable target...I would have as much concern that someone might decide they wanted a nice new fence and our wooden palisades looked like a good choice...

[St. George]

Really? Three pages of this?

Come on people, this is one of the areas where we have to remember that SCA fighting is a modern sport with a series of constraints that we cannot work around- namely that we are a volunteer organization with a limited budget, and a budget that is about to get cut even farther.

The hay bales work.

Some cool fences with Kingdom heraldry or whatever put on them might work well too.

Fences with stone pattern fabric on them are going to look like exactly that. It's a nod in the right direction but it will look like fabric with a stone pattern on it.

Build some real bridges, and realize that is almost never happened that there was an actual fight ON a bridge in period. Like many of out "scenarios" they never happened that way, they are part of our game.

What's next, build real buildings for our "town" battles? Maybe we can rent them out at night so people have private space on the field...

g-

[BdeB]

Ha! I'm suprised the Cooper's haven't set up 'hourly rates' in the Castle by now!

[Oscad]

Storage should not be a problem. As I understand it, there are 4 semi-trailers for Pennsic storage, and we could always get a 5th one. Transportation shouldn't be much of an issue, assuming they are not very heavy. At 100# per 4' seems like a lot of weight to move, especially during the week between battles.

If there was a better way of getting people/fighters to actually help with the field set up, this would all become much more feasible.


I am leery of the traffic barriers, they seem to be a bad height for folks getting pushed over them during a press, or landing on them and others landing on top of them. I would prefer something much lower, or collapsible, or much higher (but very strong); much higher also means no more pushing folks off.

For a wall battle, or even a town battle, then we need at least a post that is tall, solid, and will not get pushed over. Adding walls to the post is a bonus.

[Kilkenny]

Storage should not be a problem. As I understand it, there are 4 semi-trailers for Pennsic storage, and we could always get a 5th one. Transportation shouldn't be much of an issue, assuming they are not very heavy. At 100# per 4' seems like a lot of weight to move, especially during the week between battles.

If there was a better way of getting people/fighters to actually help with the field set up, this would all become much more feasible.


I am leery of the traffic barriers, they seem to be a bad height for folks getting pushed over them during a press, or landing on them and others landing on top of them. I would prefer something much lower, or collapsible, or much higher (but very strong); much higher also means no more pushing folks off.

For a wall battle, or even a town battle, then we need at least a post that is tall, solid, and will not get pushed over. Adding walls to the post is a bonus.

There are multiple trailers of Pennsic storage. There's also a limit to how many trailers the Coopers will permit on the property. They recently opened up a new area for semi-trailers, so the limit which had been reached has now been raised. No idea what it is

I see your point about the height of the traffic barriers. OTOH, I'm uncomfortable with solid, strong and high walls on a bridge. They mean that marshals cannot see in to watch for safety concerns and that fighters cannot escape difficult/dangerous circumstances by bailing out over the walls.

That pushes us back toward something symbolic, like the haybales or the fabric type sideline markers that started this thread.

[InsaneIrish]

OTOH, I'm uncomfortable with solid, strong and high walls on a bridge. They mean that marshals cannot see in to watch for safety concerns and that fighters cannot escape difficult/dangerous circumstances by bailing out over the walls.

That pushes us back toward something symbolic, like the haybales or the fabric type sideline markers that started this thread.

You keep saying HIGH walls for a bridge. I don't think anyone is advocating high walls for a bridge. Look at this pic. The left structure is a Lilies War fort, the right a Lilies War Bridge. Do you consider 3ft to high for a bridge?

http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/ph ... 5aab1fb3b5

As to look, I can't agree, I think wooden walls is still better looking that grey plastic. But, you are right, I know of no wooden bridges in period.

[Sean Powell]

Sean, perhaps you missed my further musings that there might be a source for "used" barriers and that such should be explored.

Sorry, missed that. I beg forgiveness as I had not yet had my morning cafieen.

Sean

[Tom B.]

OTOH, I'm uncomfortable with solid, strong and high walls on a bridge. They mean that marshals cannot see in to watch for safety concerns and that fighters cannot escape difficult/dangerous circumstances by bailing out over the walls.

That pushes us back toward something symbolic, like the haybales or the fabric type sideline markers that started this thread.

You keep saying HIGH walls for a bridge. I don't think anyone is advocating high walls for a bridge. Look at this pic. The left structure is a Lilies War fort, the right a Lilies War Bridge. Do you consider 3ft to high for a bridge?

http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/ph ... 5aab1fb3b5

As to look, I can't agree, I think wooden walls is still better looking that grey plastic. But, you are right, I know of no wooden bridges in period.

What about everyones' favorite 14th century illumination of a battle on a wooden bridge?

Tom

[Kilkenny]

You keep saying HIGH walls for a bridge. I don't think anyone is advocating high walls for a bridge. Look at this pic. The left structure is a Lilies War fort, the right a Lilies War Bridge. Do you consider 3ft to high for a bridge?


As to look, I can't agree, I think wooden walls is still better looking that grey plastic. But, you are right, I know of no wooden bridges in period.

Please look at Oscad's post which I was responding to and you will see very clearly that he is suggesting that high walls would be preferable to the safety barrier heights.

I repeat myself regarding painting the plastic for a stone look - I'm not in favor of straight plastic and don't consider it a more pleasing option than wooden walls.

The lower height wooden walls in your Lillies picture would appear, to me, to run into the same concerns Oscad raised regarding the plastic barriers.

Obviously, there's a point here where it has nothing to do with which is "the better option" and everything to do with personal aesthetics

Both the Lillies style wooden barriers and the modern safety barriers have arguable safety concerns. Cost is obviously an issue, and goes into the hopper along with considerations of maintenance, durability, storage, practicality for our application (read "can this be set up in a "battlefield" configuration by 20 people in under 2 hours?") and aesthetics. If we're really being responsible, the aesthetic is probably the least important of these elements. At the same time, considering the point of the discussion is an alternative to haybales that is more aesthetically pleasing and more "playable", the aesthetic element shouldn't be pushed too far down the list.

[Oscad]

OTOH, I'm uncomfortable with solid, strong and high walls on a bridge. They mean that marshals cannot see in to watch for safety concerns and that fighters cannot escape difficult/dangerous circumstances by bailing out over the walls.

That pushes us back toward something symbolic, like the haybales or the fabric type sideline markers that started this thread.

You keep saying HIGH walls for a bridge. I don't think anyone is advocating high walls for a bridge.

He was replying to my statement, and I did mention the potential for high walls on a bridge.

Do you consider 3ft to high for a bridge?

Not sure. If you are the closest one to the edge, and are being pushed over the edge by dozens of pushing bodies.... what happens?
If you are 'over the edge' and folks are on top of you, what happens?
Can the dead get out over the sides?
If two groups are charging, and one guy gets 'blasted' into the wall, what happens?

If the wall is too low, then it seems to be a danger to knees etc when you go over.
If the wall is too high, dead can't get out and marshalls can't see in.

There *may* be a sweet spot that is high enough to be fairly safe, yet allow folks to get out.

Also, we need to make sure the walls are thick enough on top so when you fall 'on' it you don't get damaged. (Especially when folks are also on top of you.)

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Hay bales weigh 70-130#. I don't think we'd have much problem knocking the plastic walls about if they weren't filled with water.

[blackbow]

Yes. I've been griping about not having real buildings for years. I'm tired of the "you got shot" "no I didn't I was standing behind a wall" arguments. I'm tired of watching the marshals put themselves at risk to give people a definitive "wall" that they can't throw through.

blackbow

Really? Three pages of this?

Come on people, this is one of the areas where we have to remember that SCA fighting is a modern sport with a series of constraints that we cannot work around- namely that we are a volunteer organization with a limited budget, and a budget that is about to get cut even farther.

The hay bales work.

Some cool fences with Kingdom heraldry or whatever put on them might work well too.

Fences with stone pattern fabric on them are going to look like exactly that. It's a nod in the right direction but it will look like fabric with a stone pattern on it.

Build some real bridges, and realize that is almost never happened that there was an actual fight ON a bridge in period. Like many of out "scenarios" they never happened that way, they are part of our game.

What's next, build real buildings for our "town" battles? Maybe we can rent them out at night so people have private space on the field...

g-

[InsaneIrish]

Please look at Oscad's post which I was responding to and you will see very clearly that he is suggesting that high walls would be preferable to the safety barrier heights.

Sorry, my bad. I thought you were replying to me and just not seeing where the Lilies Walls are 3ft sections.

Oscad:
The Lilies Walls are made from landscape timbers, so they are as thick as a landscape timber.
You can straddle and cross over a section of 3ft wall. It's not as easy as a haybale, but you can do it relatively easy enough.
Average height is top of the thigh on most people. Tall enough that if you get pushed against it, you won't go toppling over. However if you get blasted, then you will probably fall over the wall. But, honestly, are you truly worried about the safety factor of getting blasted over a 3ft wall? Are you currently worried about people getting blasted over haybales? Because those are MUCH more tripping hazard, but that doesn't stop anyone from blasting people off bridges.

[Oscad]

My questions were not meant as a negative on the Lilly walls, but as a checklist of questions I would want answered about any substitute.

3' seems like it might be a workable height. You can get over them during a hold, though it might be difficult to do so while the battle is 'live'. But that might be a worthwhile trade off.
And they seem high enough that it is very unlikely that you will be hanging over them with people on top of you.

OTOH, I am not troubled by the bridge edges, to me they hay bales are okay, or even the Estrella method of just 2x6 boards staked to the ground.

I am more interested in a sturdy post that can be used to create/mark doorways for town battles, or openings for wall battles.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Make a base shaped like a right triangle out of wood. Bolt a 6' timber to the 90 degree corner, and reinforce that post by bolting more timber from about 3-4' up to the other corners. Stake it to the ground through holes drilled in the base.

[edricus]

Easy you just need to find the right location to fight in

2011RaglanVII_08-19_061 by Bucket o Lia, on Flickr
Gate battle at Raglan 2011


2011RaglanVII_08-19_132 by Bucket o Lia, on Flickr
Pick up fights on the bridge leading to the tower, it is about 6 meters down to the waterfilled moat.

[InsaneIrish]

I am more interested in a sturdy post that can be used to create/mark doorways for town battles, or openings for wall battles.

Yeah, the 6ft post deliniating a door/wall edge is a FREAKING HUGE +. It completely negates the "YOU SHOT OVER THE HAYBALE/WALL!" Arguments.

[Thorfinr]

I like the lillies war log type castle. I've also seen stone like painted ply wood. Make them 5 to 6 feet high and add a marshel or 2 for the blind spots that can happen. I think they look fairly nice and there are no rules to worry for on the "i killed you/no you did not"debate. As for "softer" borders like moats and streams. hey bales are probebly it...but with a nice arched ply wood ramp over it? You know as a bridge. Also for town battles,in Canton Tx they have "Stepps War Lord". there is a ready made town. Kinda like a tourist trap gift shop cluster fu*k type place that is not in use, something like that might work.Only down side would be that it would allready need to be on site. Just my opinion.

[Sean Powell]

So long as the barriers don't end at knee level I'm happy. No reason to introduce more ACL risk. Hay bales are lower then the ACL (and softish) so they are easy to die over without injury. Mid-thigh means less likely to go over easily so less likely to damage an ACL. If the barrier was just at the wrong height it could be hazardous.

Sean

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Windows can even be closed up on the Lilies fort.

[blackbow]

what about using something like aluminum soccer goals? I know they're not cheap but they'd be a one-time investment. Paint the bars black and hang lightweight, painted canvas on them.

Blackbow

[InsaneIrish]

what about using something like aluminum soccer goals? I know they're not cheap but they'd be a one-time investment. Paint the bars black and hang lightweight, painted canvas on them.

Blackbow

to what end?
I don't see that being cheaper, safer, or more sturdy that what is used now.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Quick, cheap, good. Pick two.

[Vlasta]

Trip hazards due to folks who can't see down tripping over the plastic rims. If they didn't trip the rims would most likely break. If the rim didn't get you then think about what all that taught fabric would do wrapped around your boot.

They'll not last long when sharp armor bits rip the fabric. Nor will the plastic likely last in any kind of cold weather. Plastic shatters when it gets cold.

They look like ka ka.

They give no structure and anyone could move them around / strike through a "solid" wall by accident. Also it would be impossible to pin a long weapon against one of them.

Give me hay bales any day. (Then again I was raised around horses most of my life so...)

[blackbow]

1. reusable. 'nuff said there.
2. simulate real wall heights.
3. one-time investment. Eventually they'll pay for themselves.
4. easier to move. Two people can move these things without any trouble and the only reason you need two is because they're bigger which means you wind up with less effort expended.
5. line of sight. I can't be the only person that's tired of being able to look through a "wall" and tell exactly what's going on behind it.
6. Real door creation. a space between two of these the size of a door immediately ends all "yes you can / no you can't" arguments.

Blackbow

what about using something like aluminum soccer goals? I know they're not cheap but they'd be a one-time investment. Paint the bars black and hang lightweight, painted canvas on them.

Blackbow

to what end?
I don't see that being cheaper, safer, or more sturdy that what is used now.

[Baron Alejandro]

I think they tried canvas walls for a battle at Pennsic once. I could be misremembering. I do remember it was an utter fustercluck.

EDIT; Why?
-Dead fighters can't clear out; they will get trampled or become a trip hazard
-Marshals can't see into the fighting and tell if something's awry.
-Some 900lbs cornfed joker will crash right through it.
-EMS wouldn't be able to access a wounded fighter on scene.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Good points Baron A

.

[blackbow]

none of the suggested structures have any of those problems if used properly.

Blackbow

I think they tried canvas walls for a battle at Pennsic once. I could be misremembering. I do remember it was an utter fustercluck.

EDIT; Why?
-Dead fighters can't clear out; they will get trampled or become a trip hazard
-Marshals can't see into the fighting and tell if something's awry.
-Some 900lbs cornfed joker will crash right through it.
-EMS wouldn't be able to access a wounded fighter on scene.