The Armour Archive

For those of you that have fought with both, or even extensively in one style or the other, which type of helm gives you better visibility?
Which one can you breathe better with?
What are your overall opinions on both?
I'm looking to add a hounskull bascinet to my armor selection for the COTT, so I'm curious how it performs.

Edited for clarity, lol, thanks Irish.

I believe the 2 terms you chose are basically the same thing.
A Klapvisor is the visor that has one centeral hinge above the forehead to raise and lower the visor.
A Hounskull is the no nose, slightly rounded visor that has a central hinge.
A Pigface has the pointed snout that is a side hinged visor.


BTW, are you going to make it to Valor this weekend?

I have fought in both, well one is more of an early great bascinet than a pigface. I find the nose on the visor really screws with my close range for some reason.

I have a couple of both. The best visibility is from the best helmet. My two pig faced visors have a huge diference. The closer the eye slots are to the eye the better you will be able to see out.

Edward

InsaneIrish wrote:I believe the 2 terms you chose are basically the same thing.
A Klapvisor is the visor that has one centeral hinge above the forehead to raise and lower the visor.
A Hounskull is the no nose, slightly rounded visor that has a central hinge.
A Pigface has the pointed snout that is a side hinged visor.


BTW, are you going to make it to Valor this weekend?

Lol, damn it, posting before coffee is a stupid idea. Thanks Irish, of course I meant pigface and hounskull.

No Valor for me, unfortunately, due to family obligations. Coronation is still a 50/50 chance, even though that's a heck of a drive from STL.

I agree with Edward, it is all about the fit of the visor, not so much the style. I suggest you use the visor that works best with the period and place of your kit. For what its worth, a benefit of the pigface, at least for me, is the extra air space - it gets stuffy more slowly than a rounded nose visor - but this variable also changes dramatically based on the size/spacing of your breaths. The nose on my pigface is at an angle such that it is invisible from within the helm, if that makes sense.

Pigfaced Basinet and houndskull basinet...Generally the same thing. They come to a point/cone.
The klapviser is merely the term for how it is attached to the helm (single center hinge)...as opposed to a hinged visor (with a hinge to either side of the helm proper).
The rounded face visor is a globose visor. MOST globose visors are klapvisers and MOST pigfaced/hounskulls are hinged.

look at Ursus pictures of the CotT. Most folks seem to favor the Hounskull.

Brother Logan wrote:look at Ursus pictures of the CotT. Most folks seem to favor the Hounskull.

Except for those that prefer the globose klapviser.

And lest we forget the ever popular in history, shovel face visor (typically hinged). Check here for numerous examples in art.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/holkham-bible/147/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/holkham-bible/162/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/holkham-bible/164/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/francais-22495/1468/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/avis-au ... m456/2189/

And I don't want to seem like I'm disagreeing w/ the knowledgeable Kenwrec, but I believe that early in the 14th century, hinged globose visors were rather popular. For example...

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/the-hou ... -5412/861/

Oh, and to repeat what other's have said, having superior vision w/in a visor is all about having the eye slots closer to the eyes. Globose klapvisers & shovel visors typically have this feature. Hounskulls can as well, but it isn't a given. Many variations of this style push the eye slots further away from the eyes. Just an observation.

edit - because I can't tell Kenwrec from Galfrid.

I have a pig face, grill, and now a dog face for this helm. Hjalmr made the dog-face (and did a nice job) while the pig face was one of Vis. Karl von Sussen's imports heavily modified (filed). The armourers make more difference than the style in my case. Both have limited vision which hurts in melees and both trap too much "hot breath" even after I enlarged the holes. I can focus on a single opponent pretty well. I have a number of people tell me they are more intimidating than a grill face and a few tell me that I look better when they cannot see my face. Both are German enough to please me.

I have also been told that I tend to hit harder when wearing my pig face(???)

This helm is quite a bit smaller than my usual Illusion bascinet and seems to have more effect on how much less (in quantity and force) I am hit than the face does. I only recall maybe two solid hits to the pig nose that might have missed a grill or dog face. Fighter rarely even try face thrusts against the pig face but certainly will against the dog face. Both faces sit close to the bridge of my nose and I have not been hurt but the dog face is a lot less comforting to be stabbed in and invites face thrusts more.

Though it's not just a matter of visibility, but of breatheability.

Max VH

Kenwrec Wulfe wrote:Pigfaced Basinet and houndskull basinet...Generally the same thing. They come to a point/cone.
The klapviser is merely the term for how it is attached to the helm (single center hinge)...as opposed to a hinged visor (with a hinge to either side of the helm proper).
The rounded face visor is a globose visor. MOST globose visors are klapvisers and MOST pigfaced/hounskulls are hinged.

OK, I'm not losing my mind. I've always thought "hounskull" was another term for the pig-face style. I've seen pig-faced basinets labeled "hounskulls" in museums, at the least.

I had heard the globose one referred to as a dog-faced visor too, but I have no clue how historical a term that is.

Galvyn Lockhart wrote:

Brother Logan wrote:look at Ursus pictures of the CotT. Most folks seem to favor the Hounskull.

Except for those that prefer the globose klapviser.

And lest we forget the ever popular in history, shovel face visor (typically hinged). Check here for numerous examples in art.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/holkham-bible/147/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/holkham-bible/162/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/holkham-bible/164/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/francais-22495/1468/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/avis-au ... m456/2189/

And I don't want to seem like I'm disagreeing w/ the knowledgeable Kenwrec, but I believe that early in the 14th century, hinged globose visors were rather popular. For example...

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/the-hou ... -5412/861/

Oh, and to repeat what other's have said, having superior vision w/in a visor is all about having the eye slots closer to the eyes. Globose klapvisers & shovel visors typically have this feature. Hounskulls can as well, but it isn't a given. Many variations of this style push the eye slots further away from the eyes. Just an observation.

edit - because I can't tell Kenwrec from Galfrid.

Oh, YE, there are definitely examples for them, to be certain. I have seen hinged globose and klapvisor pigfaces before.
Like this one here:
http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?feat ... basc16.jpg

The klap-style hinge, from my understanding, stayed around in eastern Europe much longer than it did in the west, as did the globose style visor. Of course, the globose visor did eventual shape into the lovely great basinet type hinged, rounded nose visor, or so it would appear.
Grand Basinet:
http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?feat ... basc23.jpg

And I hope you can tell us apart in person... I would hate for Galfrid to be confused for my ugly mug.

Did the shovel face fall out of fashion by 1360? I haven't seen many past 1340s either. I am not a scholar on this, but can someone enlighten me?

Also what was a popular face for western Bohemia in 1350-1360? Would it have been more germanic in style?

zippy wrote:Did the shovel face fall out of fashion by 1360? I haven't seen many past 1340s either. I am not a scholar on this, but can someone enlighten me?

I do believe so.

zippy wrote:Also what was a popular face for western Bohemia in 1350-1360? Would it have been more germanic in style?

They would have followed Germanic styles. You might have had a little Russian or Byzantine influence further east.

Kenwrec: What sort of sources are available for that region, specifically concerning visors? Trying to get myself up to speed on that area.

For a quick source, I would use www.effigiesandbrasses.com

Here:
http://www.effigiesandbrasses.com/map/? ... g_mode=all

That is a 1350-1360 search for male, martial effigies in Austria, Germany, Czech, Poland and Hungary.

All of my book sources are packed at the moment, but I think that anything in the Osprey series for germany, poland, hungary, byzantium, russia, lithuania would give you some good ideas.

I'm well aware of that website ...
If you notice on the map you linked, Bohemia (most of the Czech Republic) is entirely devoid of effigies - and that is why my question arises.

It might be a little bit before I get to my book resources, but once I have moved and unpacked them (Nov/Dec timeframe), I would be happy to share them with you.

While my memory is a little vague, I do remember doing an internet search one time a few years back on Silesia and seeing a number of references to Bohemia.

For those of you that have fought with both, or even extensively in one style or the other, which type of helm gives you better visibility?

If you are talking about the dome face "pig" in the more western fashion and the short pointed snout in the Germanic fashion, it is hands down the Germanic. I have fought COTT's and SCA in all three versions of these helms and the Germanic face had the greater visibility by far. Not so much straight ahead, but you have a better field of vision DOWN. It is so much different than the Italian one I wore in the 2010 COTT that I am switching back to a German harness for the 2012 COTT.

Which one can you breathe better with?

Neither. I'd ditch the visor if I could. It is an illusion on the breathing. In the COTT I noticed NO difference in the breathing. The TEMP of the air however is different. I don't know if it's the smaller space of the closer visor that allows the air to cool better, but there is a marked difference in TEMP of the air inside the dome Italian pig than the close German pig.

What are your overall opinions on both?

I liked the Italian long dome pig for it's ability to shed thrusts to the face that would have rocked me in the German one. The lack of angles on the German pig were a huge disadvantage to the thrust. They stick on it easily. The German however had superior downward vision, an important feature in a battle where tripping is doom. It also was closer to the face, so in the large presses in the COTT it was not easily struck from the side. The Italian pig did have the benefit of more breath holes to see on the left side, where the german did not. As I am getting a helm for rebated steel, I am chosing to get a hybrid like the one Josh Little of Ars Gladii just got from Wild Armory that looks like this-


Closer to the face, not so much dome out, and lots of breaths on the left. The visor is a necessary for the switch to rebated steel use.

Leo Medii wrote: The German however had superior downward vision, an important feature in a battle where tripping is doom.

I cannot help but picture Daffy Duck or Wile E. Coyote in a pigfaced basinet tripping and *BOING!* sticking nose first into the ground with his feet in the air....

Done it. Sunk it at least 4 inches in the ground. Got fell on. Was stuck. It s(t)ucked!

The late Duke Aonghais like to drowned that way. Mud puddle.

And people wonder why I like the round-faced klapp...

My preference is pretty apparent ...