The Armour Archive

From SCA-West:

"Greetings,

Their Majesties Rolf and Aurora have stated that all
swords must have a cross hilt for October Crown. This is in addition to any
type of basket hilt they may have. In addition all weapons must be properly
taped. Those with a ragged tape job will not be passed.
Please cross post the above to any appropriate lists.

Thank-you,

Master Eric Bjornsson, OP
Earl Marshal, West"

I must respectfully say-

WTF?

Hitting with the edge of a sword rather than the flat....what will they think of next?

I would have put the no basket hilt restriction in the later rounds as an effort to not alienate the newer fighters who may not have good gaunts.

However, the tape rule I like!

Is this really to make it easier to identify flat blows?

WOW!!!!!!

Ciaran,
The cross hilt can be "... in addition to any
type of basket hilt they may have." So there will be swords with cross gaurds on top of basket hilts.

Ahhhh... excellent! Thanks for pointing that out!

It doesn't make sense to me that it has anything to do with flat blows. Sounds to me like Their Majesties are trying to improve the appearance of the weapons but are allowing baskets to stay on the swords anyway for people without gauntlets.

Even though I do not expect to make October Crown I do plan to try and implement His Majesty's whim and introduce more cross guard locally. I am embarrassed to admit that I have a basket hilt designed to look like a gauntlet which I already noticed could be improved by adding some sort of minimal cross guard. A couple of my newer fighters stole my cross guard sword and retaped it for me; maybe they are trying to tell me something about my weapons?

Gethin wrote:Ciaran,
The cross hilt can be "... in addition to any
type of basket hilt they may have." So there will be swords with cross gaurds on top of basket hilts.

Not CAN be. MUST be. As you say, basket-hilted swords must have crossguards as well.

Effingham wrote:Not CAN be. MUST be. As you say, basket-hilted swords must have crossguards as well.

You are correct. I was trying to say that you can add a cross hilt to a sword with a basket hilt. Sorry for the the miscommunication.

from the "Royal Whim" thread:

It's a stupid rule.

Legislating things like this is silly. I would use cardboard, plastic, or hose cross guards, and I would tape them opposite the way of the blade in front of my basket hilts to prove the point.

g-

Guys....

Why not just ASK His Majesty his reasoning?

Crown@westkingdom.org

The reason doesn't matter, it's a Royal Whim or command, and should I fight in Crown in the West, I would respect that. The point is that any reason such as "blade spotting" is silly.

It's TRM's choice, and I would abide by it. It's just a silly rule.

g-

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:from the "Royal Whim" thread:

It's a stupid rule.

Legislating things like this is silly. I would use cardboard, plastic, or hose cross guards, and I would tape them opposite the way of the blade in front of my basket hilts to prove the point.

g-

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:The reason doesn't matter, it's a Royal Whim or command, and should I fight in Crown in the West, I would respect that. The point is that any reason such as "blade spotting" is silly.

It's TRM's choice, and I would abide by it. It's just a silly rule.

g-

With all due respect, using a poorly made cross hilt and attatching it opposite the way of the blade would be very disrespectful, I feel that it would be akin to wearing exposed/uncoverd plastic armor to a WoH tourney. If I were the monarch and you showed such open contempt for one of my rulings you would not be fighting in my tourney no matter who you "are". If you do not like the way a tourney will be fought then don't fight in it.
V/R
Logan

I totally disagree. There are many types of swords out there with many types of hilts. Some hilts, including the ones that certain portrayals appropriately use have no cross hilts on them, or have circular hilts that do not denote blade alignment,

At different times in my career, I have fought with blades offset to the natural alignment of the sword, and having a cross hilt in alignment with a basket would do nothing to help a marshal see this.

If you were the Monarch and chose not to allow me to fight in such a tourney because I acted within accordance of your word, then I would invoke my rights of fealty- and likely be joined by other members of the Chivalry in doing so to cause you to listen. Your kicking me out of Crown for adhering to your word would potentially become a serious issue.

I would not put a "nice" crosshilt on my sword for 1 tournament, especially if I were going to rip it off right afterwards because it makes my nice basket hilts look stupid. I mean really dude, think about it for a minute. The plastic, leather, hose, or whatever crossguards I suggested would probably be just as crappy looking as those put on the majority of the blades for that day in any case- taping the opposite way of the blade would just be to prove a point to HRM that his idea is not only NOT a fix for the issue, but just looks dumb.

g-

I find it hilarious. People get away with too many crappy flat blows.

Curiously enough, the actual proclamation (as published to the West Kingdom list by the kingdom EM) does not specify that the required cross-hilt align with the striking edge... AoC

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:I find it hilarious. People get away with too many crappy flat blows.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it. After watching countless hours of fighting film at various speeds, I admit to being a little disappointed by the prevalence of flat shots delivered, and taken, without the flaw in the technique being revealed by anyone involved (attacker, defender, or spectator). It's endemic in the SCA to the point that I can only conclude that the top players in our sport cannot tell when a sword held in their own hand hits flat.

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:I would not put a "nice" crosshilt on my sword for 1 tournament, especially if I were going to rip it off right afterwards because it makes my nice basket hilts look stupid. I mean really dude, think about it for a minute. The plastic, leather, hose, or whatever crossguards I suggested would probably be just as crappy looking as those put on the majority of the blades for that day in any case- taping the opposite way of the blade would just be to prove a point to HRM that his idea is not only NOT a fix for the issue, but just looks dumb.

g-

It's Crown, why would you not want to put in a couple of hours work to make something that looks good? I'm not picking on you but I have always had a problem with basket hilts for persona who would not have used them. To me, a viking with a "nice" basket looks just as stupid as a crosshilt above a basket. Make youself a "basket" that looks like your persona appropriate glove/gauntlet and add "decorative" persona appropriate sword fittings. It's not that hard and can be done with a minimum of cash and work.

V/R
Logan

PS I don't care about the "seeing the flat blows" thing, if you can't or won't tell your opponent that your blow was no good then thats on your honor.

Logan,

I fight with hilts, because I do not fight with bare hands.

No contraption is in any way going to make it look like I am fighting with a bare hand. A Viking fighting with a muffler on his hand to cover his gauntlet looks retarded. Putting a cross hilt in front of basket looks about 100 times stupider than just using a freaking nice basket hilt and admitting that we are playing a sport and not "re-creating" medieval fighting. My persona would have fought without a glove, so there really isn't anything that can be done there.

I am also superstitious. I don't like to change ANYTHING a short time before Crown. If a strap is busted, I won't fix it, etc. I'll find a work around. I want everything to be as close to "the same" as every time I fight. Adding a pointless hilt onto my swords would mess that up.

Also, I don't like to re-tape swords before I fight. I make a bunch, try them all out and practice with the one I like to make sure it is the one I want to use in Crown. Re-taping it would screw that whole process up, because I like being used to them, knowing how they move and feel.

Also, given that my swords last at best a few practices, I really don't put more time and effort into them than necessary anymore. I am not going to "fit one out" when it might shatter on my first two or three blows if there is a bad spot in the rattan. I tape them nicely, once, put them in a hilt and use them till they are done- usually within the month.

And when it comes to "persona-fying" armor, I don't need a lecture. My FARB level is at the swords and hilts, because for most period the SCA covers there is no adequate solution.

g-

PS- I agree about the flat blows thing, which is part of my point. TRM's could just as easily have said"we'll be watching for flats in Our Tournament. Those who do not call them appropriately will be thrown out.

(From the WK Facebook Page)

The explanation for the "cross guard" requirement being set up by Rolf and Aurora for October Crown.
---------------
We have noticed an increase in the amount of "flat" blows thrown with swords. To help increase fighter awareness, We have asked the marshals to be especially watchful for flats as well as anviling. For Our Crown Tournament, in an effort to aid the marshals in observing blows that land "flat", We are requiring all swords have quillion-style cross guards added to them over and above any basket hilts, tsubas, or other hand guards. We ask that everyone who reads this missive pass the information along to the fighters you know so that no one shall come to Crown unprepared.

Skutai wrote:

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:I find it hilarious. People get away with too many crappy flat blows.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it. After watching countless hours of fighting film at various speeds, I admit to being a little disappointed by the prevalence of flat shots delivered, and taken, without the flaw in the technique being revealed by anyone involved (attacker, defender, or spectator). It's endemic in the SCA to the point that I can only conclude that the top players in our sport cannot tell when a sword held in their own hand hits flat.

I don’t know about being a top player, but I do know when I hit on edge. I also know when I hit flat and would never allow an opponent to take the blow. If your handle is not shaped so that you can tell the difference, you are not learning to fight with a sword. If you can tell and let your opponent take a bad shot, you have no place on the field.

Patrick, Caid

Their Majesties Rolf and Aurora have stated that all swords must have a cross hilt for October Crown.

Use a mace.

To change the direction of this thread a little;

If you where to add a "cross piece" to your blade as a replacement for a basket what would you use? Why?

There are few people out there who use this type of equipment, I tried for a few years but was unable to ever find a way to make it work with any level of acceptable balance on my weapons. Any one out there find a good solution?

Vladimir wrote:

Their Majesties Rolf and Aurora have stated that all swords must have a cross hilt for October Crown.

Use a mace.

THIS!!!! is full of win!

I like the rule. Anything that helps remove the lame: "wristy-no power-wrap shot-flat of the blade shot" ...is good by me.

If it's a wristy no-power shot, it doesn't sound like it would be good, flat or not.

shinyhalo wrote:I like the rule. Anything that helps remove the lame: "wristy-no power-wrap shot-flat of the blade shot" ...is good by me.

Not usually a problem in the West Kingdom, SH. Light is still light, edge or flat... AoC

Vladimir wrote:Use a mace.

His Maj would find that a wholly appropriate solution!

For He is a great fan of the Mace and does strike terror into his enemies when he takes the field with one.
-----
@Goderic:"If you where to add a "cross piece" to your blade as a replacement for a basket what would you use? Why?"

One of By My Hand Designs one piece hilts. I have used a friend sword mounted with one and it was keen!

-Ivan

I've been trying to make a sword for crown and have yet to find a grip I like with my gauntlets

Niall,
I made a one handed sword for my squire Frederick to start using now, so that he's used to it for crown. I'm loaning him my finger gauntlets to use with the sword.
I made a 6" cross guard using the washing machine hose, and a type 13ish pommel using tape and leather. I measured the length of my handle inside the baldur basket and used that measurement for length. I carved out a rectangle with the width and length I liked, and rasped all the corners so that I had a softened rectangle/blunt oval shaped handle.
I wrapped the handle in a single spiral of black athletic tape (I didn't bother with the under spiral I like for my bastard swords). Athletic tape adds a bit of grip, so that you don't feel like you need to have a death grip on the sword. Black hockey tape is available at Big 5 and such, and is a bit tacky (more grip that the athletic tape, which is not sticky), if you feel like you want even more grip.
Both Fred and I fought with the sword and my finger gauntlets, and both of us felt pretty comfortable. Fred actually said he forgot he switched swords while he was fighting.

meh ... whatever floats their majesties boat

So, not like I'm in the west kingdom but... is there any prohibition against fighting with a bar-mace and shield? Maybe a basket-hilted bar-mace with a sharpened tip?

It's one thing to request a cross-hilt to improve fighting standards... it another to allow an escape clause that not only doesn't require a hilt or blade orientation on striking but 'kills' on strikes to the hips and shoulders as well.

Sean

Mark, my issue is getting a grip that fits in the darkheart gauntlets. Ive shaped the grip down fairly narrow but since I normally fight with no glove and the gauntlets are kind of thick....
I might try taking out the spiral grip and putting a D strap fir a lanyard.

Sean, do you mean a "bar mace" that happens to look like a wide rattan stick?