Legality of using a buckler with Great/bastard sword

[Wat of Sarum]

Inverted sword yes, "madu-style" no.

Looks pretty madu to me. Holding the inverted sword on the ricasso while holding a small buckler in the same hand.



Not that I approve of such heinous abominations, but you know, everyone has to make their own lifestyle choice.

[JoshLittle]

This is more an artifact in the way that the combatants entered the list in a (at least as far as we have documented) late-period armored judicial duel in the Germanic areas. The sword and spear were typically carried in unsheathed and held alongside each other length-wise (you can see that in another of those plates). I believe the intention here is to hold the shield and actively use it - rather then letting it hang over the left side from its neck strap - while not wanting to drop the sword. It may look like a madu, but the intention and mode of use is completely different. Hugh Knight/SyrRhys can comment further, as he is far more knowledgable on the Gladitoria line of manuscripts than I am.

[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

"It's a moo point."
"Don't you mean a moot point?"
"No a moo point. Something that only cows talk about."

I thought that was what you call one of those subjects you can discuss 'til the cows come home.

[SyrRhys]

This is more an artifact in the way that the combatants entered the list in a (at least as far as we have documented) late-period armored judicial duel in the Germanic areas. The sword and spear were typically carried in unsheathed and held alongside each other length-wise (you can see that in another of those plates). I believe the intention here is to hold the shield and actively use it - rather then letting it hang over the left side from its neck strap - while not wanting to drop the sword. It may look like a madu, but the intention and mode of use is completely different. Hugh Knight/SyrRhys can comment further, as he is far more knowledgable on the Gladitoria line of manuscripts than I am.

Ah, one of my spies informed me that a question about Gladiatoria had come up, so here I am to make the world safe from madus and other such obscenities. Sorry it took so long to find out about this question.

That sword is *not* being used as a madu, nor is it "christian style," nor any other such behavior. The text says:
"Note the eleventh technique: When he has taken his shield into his left hand and his spear up for the throw and means to throw at you, then take your sword and shield together into your left hand and look for the moment of his throw and catch it with your shield. After he has thrown his spear, cast your spear upwards to shoot it and at once shoot and propel at him wherever you can hit him; thus you can freely get to your sword." Gladiatoria fol. 6v.
For a full translation of the entire book, see: Knight, H., The Gladiatoria Fechtbuch: A Fifteenth-Century Fight Book, Lulu.com, 2008 (http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-gladiatoria-fechtbuch/6526454)

In other words, the book says to hold your spear and shield together so that you can easily get at your sword later. When your opponent throws his spear at you, deflect it with your shield, then throw your own spear. Then grab your sword in your hand and rush in on him to get to the real work of the fight. You will have a real advantage over the other guy because he still has to draw his sword, while yours is already out and ready for use.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Well that's settled.

[Leo Medii]

Thus, the danger of using only one source of information or one image and then telling others it's historically correct. Word.

[SyrRhys]

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Gladiatoria/Gladiatoria.htm

There ya go- inverted sword used madu-style.

Inverted sword yes, "madu-style" no.

These images portray techniques from the spear/longsword/dagger judicial duel.



Note that the dude on the left is holding his inverted sword by the grip rather than by the ricasso as is usually done in the SCA-created 'Crusader style".



Inverted grip with the right hand, and yes, it looks like he's going to thrust with it. He's going for the groin, that's the only remotely vulnerable opening besides armpits and eyeslots on these harnesses.

However, I'm not arguing that an inverted grip for parrying or thrusting is not an historical style, just that it in no way translates into justification for a double-ended-stabby-thing-with-a-buckler-in-the-middle for use by armored knights.

Note that neither of these swords is being used "christian style" nor as a madu, either.

In the first one, the text says:
"Note the second technique: If he disarmed you of your spear then pull out your sword and take it in your left hand and turn the point downward. If he thrusts to you with his spear, then run in with him and grasp your sword with both hands and prevent him from reaching his sword and also try to disarm him of his spear." Gladiatoria fol 2r.

So what he's saying is to draw your sword left handed, with the point naturally down, and prepare to use it to deflect your opponent's spear thrust. Then take your sword in both hands (meaning a halfsword grip) and rush in to use it.

In the second one, the text says:
"Note the fourth technique: When he has thrown his spear at you, take your spear with full strength and thrust at him with full power.

"If he thrusts at you with full strength, then strike out his thrust with your left hand, and grab it under your left arm, hold him tight and take your sword to throw it, and throw it wherever you can best get him." Gladiatoria fol. 3r.

The first paragraph refers to the figure on the right: He is simply making a full-power spear thrust. The second paragraph is for the figure on the left: He is told to grasp his opponent's spear in his left hand, then *throw* his sword with his right hand. Yes, throw--as in, like a spear.

So, again, in neither case do we see the sword being used "christian style" or like a madu, or to rape penguins, or to drive off vampires with the cross, nor anything else.

[SyrRhys]

Thus, the danger of using only one source of information or one image and then telling others it's historically correct. Word.

Well, in this case I think it's a case of taking a picture out of context without translating the text and then claiming it shows what you want it to show. I am not very good at translating this stuff--someone like Christian Tobler could have translated it in an afternoon (and done a better job), whereas it took me two years, seriously, to translate Gladiatoria, with a lot of help from people like Jeff Forgeng. But relatively few HEMA people are really focused on armored combat, so the purely armored sources don't get as much attention, and here we had one of the very best sources for armored combat because it contained not just a picture and an obscure line of text, or just text, but both a picture and a detailed textual description for each technique, something fairly rare in HEMA armored sources (Jörg Wilhalm is the other good one for this). So I had to translate it so I would understand what it said! But I hope this thread shows that you can't just look at the pretty pictures and guess what they mean; far too often you'll guess wrong, or you'll misinterpret it in the light of a pre-developed belief.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

Actually, with the armor those guys were wearing, why would they be blocking with their swords anyway? That's the whole sca-point of madu or down greatsword - a stick you can see through, stab, and block with.

[SyrRhys]

Actually, with the armor those guys were wearing, why would they be blocking with their swords anyway?

So they don't get a thrust to a vital target. Do you think them invulnerable merely because they're in a cap-a-pie harness? The Fechtbücher are full of techniques for attacking the gaps in harnesses every bit as comprehensive as these, and those attacks must be displaced.

That's the whole sca-point of madu or down greatsword - a stick you can see through, stab, and block with.

That may well be, but many who stoop so low as to use the madu or point down longsword pretend that doing so is documentable to historical practice rather than being a made-up modern perversion, pointing to pictures such as those in Gladiatoria to confuse those who don't know any better. Thus, it's important to refute those claims in the hopes of preventing someone who cares from going down the wrong path.

[Leo Medii]

Yep Syr Rhys, that is actually what I meant. Using one picture, or two without knowing what they actually might mean or say to justify something that they want.

That may well be, but many who stoop so low as to use the madu or point down longsword pretend that doing so is documentable to historical practice rather than being a made-up modern perversion, pointing to pictures such as those in Gladiatoria to confuse those who don't know any better. Thus, it's important to refute those claims in the hopes of preventing someone who cares from going down the wrong path.

Word to a mother. In my experience though it makes little difference. As long as it works in the rules people don't seem to care 90% of the time.

[SyrRhys]

Word to a mother. In my experience though it makes little difference. As long as it works in the rules people don't seem to care 90% of the time.

Word to a mother? I don't think I've ever read that expression before. But you're right about people not caring, and I used to work very hard to change that. Now it's not my job any more because I realize they can't be saved, but I can still set right some of the more egregious abuses of the facts. Someone needs to drop me a line when things like this come up, however, because I don't look here that much any more.

By the way, and completely off topic, Leo, I think the things you're doing are truly awesome and commendable. I wish I had a chance to show you folks some of the great Harnischfechten material out there, but you and your folks are a shining example of people really trying to do the right thing. I am very impressed.

[Thorstenn]

It's gaming the rules and should be openly frowned upon, discouraged, and treated as a pox on the game we play. I will never teach it to my squires.

Thor-

P.S. it's gah, and makes baby Jesus CRY! Oh, I call it Madon't!!!

[Wat of Sarum]

In other words, the book says to hold your spear and shield together so that you can easily get at your sword later.

Thanks for chiming in on this Sir Rhys.

[SyrRhys]

Thanks for chiming in on this Sir Rhys.

You are quite welcome, sir. All of the armored sources, and especially the Gladiatoria texts, are something of a specialty of mine, so it is very enjoyable for me to be able to spread more information about them. I wish these techniques would get more exposure--they are so well suited to what you folks do.

And no one has yet told me what a bad person I am for hurting someone's feelings with the facts--that's quite a new thing for me on this list!

[Baron Alcyoneus]

"Crossbow, tee-hee!"

Since you asked.

I won't mention the name, I'd rather summon Bl***sh***d!