The Armour Archive

Has anyone any knowledge or experience with non-combatants taking the field as bannerers? Armoured enough to be safe, able to be killed, but unable to attack or defend?

It would be like using a scout -

I don't know if anyone even uses non-combatant scout anymore.....


.

Put zee banner on a piece of rattan, and have a bannerer that knows/likes fighting with a "broken lance" as his shield. Why should they just be killed, when they can have a single handed weapon at the ready if the need should arise.

EDIT: This is in the instance that it's a NICE banner you don't want in the fight/on the dirty ground. Otherwise I'm with Aaron's point of a banner attached to a spear/polearm.

I haven't heard of any, but it sounds interesting.

One idea I've been playing around with is hiring out six spearmen and six combat archers (crossbows) and going for the goofy maneuver.

Banners would fly from the ends of the spears of the six spearmen. The banners would fly the Red Herring with the words "Fake, Feint & Diversion" in Latin (or even English). The combat archers would be behind us to send a volley lobbed over the Despicable Diversion into the oncoming attackers. But I'd need six spearmen who are CoT worthy in their gaudiness.

But I could use just six people who are armoured and can take a hit I guess.

The spearmen could lower their spears and start fighting with them, so this group wouldn't be "non-fighting" IMO.

-Aaron

Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:Has anyone any knowledge or experience with non-combatants taking the field as bannerers? Armoured enough to be safe, able to be killed, but unable to attack or defend?

They have to be authorized at least as a scout and in minimum armor.

And.... you should be emailing your Kingdom KEM not asking here.

I'm asking this question for a specific reason. I'm not looking to use non-combatant bannerers or advocating for it. I'm just wondering if it's even "done."

If it's not, or if it's very uncommon, there's an entry in an SCA-themed wiki that needs correcting.

I carried the Caid banner, age 14, with no armour but a helmet, at Burro Creek. That was a very long time ago, though.

I can't think of any battle at Pennsic that uses armored but unauthorized banner-men. I can't think of any events in the East Kingdom either.

(IMHO) I would not recomend doing so either. If they are fully armored and expected to be hit and killed then they need to be trained in taking a hit, what is and isn't good calibration, where if they are hit is a leg vs an arm vs a body. They should also be trained in what they can and can-not do with the banner pole (like strike with it unless it is a rattan banner and definetly no thrusting without tips.) They should know what hold means, what to do about it and when they should and shouldn't call it themselves.

If they can do all of that then they can probably pass an authorization test. Either give them a few days of S&S work or get them an authorization with CA or Siege engines.

Sean

Anyone who is doing it needs to stop.
It is not allowed.

Sir Omarad wrote:Anyone who is doing it needs to stop.
It is not allowed.

But could an armored authorized combatant not simply put a banner on a spear and fulfill essentially the same role? They wouldn't be a non-combatant, but then why should they be?

I believe that what Sir Omarad is saying is that the use of non-combatants as bannerers is not allowed. Am I correct in this?

I have seen combatant bannerers in various SCA battles, and I would advocate their use whenever it's feasible. They could be armed with a sword and use the banner pole as a parrying device, but I would never advocate putting a banner on a spear that's meant to be fought with.

Sir Omarad's reply does tell me that the Wiki in question needs a serious edit.

Sigismund von Helfenstein wrote:

Sir Omarad wrote:Anyone who is doing it needs to stop.
It is not allowed.

But could an armored authorized combatant not simply put a banner on a spear and fulfill essentially the same role? They wouldn't be a non-combatant, but then why should they be?

sure!

Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:I believe that what Sir Omarad is saying is that the use of non-combatants as bannerers is not allowed. Am I correct in this?

I have seen combatant bannerers in various SCA battles, and I would advocate their use whenever it's feasible. They could be armed with a sword and use the banner pole as a parrying device, but I would never advocate putting a banner on a spear that's meant to be fought with.

Sir Omarad's reply does tell me that the Wiki in question needs a serious edit.

I'll look at it.

Sir Omarad, have you seen the PMs I sent you?

Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:Sir Omarad's reply does tell me that the Wiki in question needs a serious edit.

Donal
Would you kindly supply the URL of the Wiki reference?
Ranif

I'm not on here every day, I get to things as fast as I can.
Banner carriers need to be authorized.

They are participants.

Chiurgeons, marshals, etc... do not "participate" they "oversee" until needed.
They have no bearing or influence on the outcome of the battle.
They provide a service.

I hope this clears things up.

Ranif wrote:Would you kindly supply the URL of the Wiki reference?

It's called Cunnan; the URL of the specific page is http://cunnan.sca.org.au/wiki/Banner_Bearer
The current content incorporates my input.

Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:Has anyone any knowledge or experience with non-combatants taking the field as bannerers? Armoured enough to be safe, able to be killed, but unable to attack or defend?

Not a bannerer, but a piper.. survived the whole battle, too.

Yeah but Niall isn't your normal piper. Or anything else.

BdeB wrote:Yeah but Niall isn't your normal piper. Or anything else.

A dolphin writ large on the canvas of man.

I gather you have him now? God bless and keep you.

No. Niall is living in Seattle/An Tir now. Before that it was Florida, before that North Carolina, before that yes he and I used to be roomates. That was a while ago though. We should be working on some new music here in a the next couple of months.

BdeB wrote:No. Niall is living in Seattle/An Tir now. Before that it was Florida, before that North Carolina, before that yes he and I used to be roomates. That was a while ago though. We should be working on some new music here in a the next couple of months.

AWESOME! Niall used to "practice" his pipes in my (now ex) GF's bathroom which was roughly the size of a closet in State College PA.

Truly one of my favorite humans on the planet.

And how many guys have PVC "combat pipes"?

Wow... old good memories!

So I have played pipes in the field battle at Pennsic on several occasions... Sometimes I would last all the way through... was politely killed in one, and booted off by an overly zealous Marshal on one occasion...

My pipes then were actually not all PVC, I had wood drones but a plastic chanter with a gor-tex bag... Bagpipes sound amazingly odd underwater (the sound bursts out in bubbles) and its impossible to get the whole thing underwater while playing, as the bag is quite a good flotation device while playing .

I had debated on getting "Bagpipe" armor made, or at least a special set of gauntlets that will allow me to play and have my hands protected incase of an errant blow, but that never came to fruition. What ended up happening eventually was that I gave up and just enjoyed beating on people instead...

Now however, I have pretty much a full set of plastic pipes, and they are very easy to pick up and play after letting them sit for 6 months, where wood and reed and cane are always a maintenance nightmare.

I do have a goal to get to Pennsic this year, and will be happy to play on the field if it can be arranged that the marshals dont freak. (one year I had a marshal escort who did the arguing for me! that worked pretty well)

So I've got some recordings of me playing smallpipes and such - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuR6uObK4is

and a pic of me piping at Antir-West war from 2010...



Good to be remembered

-Niall

Oh, and in all those situations, I went on the field as a fully authorized fighter...

Niall

Perhaps if you authorized as a siege engineer . . . I think your hands can be bare in siege-engineer armour, though the Marshal's Handbook doesn't specifically say it.

Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:Perhaps if you authorized as a siege engineer . . . I think your hands can be bare in siege-engineer armour, though the Marshal's Handbook doesn't specifically say it.

If the rules don't say it then you can't do it. default to minimum armor standards unless specified.

Niall, PM me and lets see if we can find a way to get you and your pipes on the field.

In the back... white riding tabbard, second from the right. She was fully armored and carried our banner in battle at Border Raids... I think this was 1989.

At my first Estrella (AS 23), there was an incident that led to the Caidan Earl Marshall resigning on the spot (it was that or declare the event a non-official event) since there was a woman who insisted on carrying the Aten banner into combat UNARMOURED (and yes, there were projectile weapons allowed in most scenarios), and was quite insistent that she be allowed to.

That was a hell of a shitstorm, and I was standing near enough to hear almost all of it.

Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:Perhaps if you authorized as a siege engineer . . . I think your hands can be bare in siege-engineer armour, though the Marshal's Handbook doesn't specifically say it.

Siege engineers have to have a minimum of half gauntlets.

From your picture above it looks to me like you could readily play pipes with some roomy half guants. Given that many types of fighters can go around the field with only half gaunts I don't see why you couldn't play pipes on the battlefield.

5. Combat archers, siege engineers, and those using a thrown weapon, need only a half gauntlet made to the above standards for gauntlets but without finger protection.

Chris