The Armour Archive

Mike England wrote:Steve put together a great event on a awesome site. I encourage everyone to check it out next year.

Thanks Mike!

*** the following may contain irony, sarcasm and/or tongue-in-the-cheek attitude mostly supported by my non native English speaking culture, just disregard if discomfort was to be experienced***

The US jousting community tribulations are an inexhaustible source of entertainment for he who has the luck of gathering the numerous ingredients of that gigantic cake.

The major fun is the overly specialized views developed by forums, msg boards and FB discussions are always very true in their specific environment BUT more than often completely off track when mixed together... and it ruins the cake.

Trying to get pears and peaches from an apple tree has always been an impossible challenge... I wonder why jousting would magically escape the logic.

I know it all reads like coded speech… don’t spoil my fun !

Main conversational themes :
- The sport will benefit from real TV exposure a show troupe.
- World Championships theory
- The chest beating thunder
- The pulling the blanket game
…could name others, but I’m partial, and it’s my fun !


TV EXPOSURE :
Despite the fact TV exposure operates on all kinds of public, most of whom you don’t want to even remotely be associated with according on your focus… my feeling is that it can’t benefit the sport if it is centered on a specific group or troupe. It simply reduces the image of the sport to a tiny portion of the previously mentioned cake !
TV exposure will benefit the sport when it’s sport oriented rather than entertainment specific.

Ex : World known “Cirque du Soleil” stages some of the most outstanding athletes I ever seen. TV exposure is likely to generate sufficient interest for them to grow the number of permanent shows in Vegas, rather than attract people to the gym with the Omympics as a goal.

Shows performed as competitions and competitions sold as shows are equally missing the same ingredient. The sport aspect is neglected to the benefit of “in god we trust” printings.

Anything that looks like a hobby or show will attract media interest for the same short duration. Permanent media interest can be achieved and fan base can be developed when the sport is supported by enough news and events to report.
My belief is that the jousting community needs to develop a network of events that can be connected together to generate coverage.

WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP THEORY
This thread has been the occasion for multiple bursts of laughter.
I’m not after self claimed titles (mostly part of self advertising speeches), I’m after fact.

I have posted on FB Tiltyard that I really had a doubt that Estes Tournament could qualify for World Championship level when it fielded only US, CND and long time ago UK competitors.
To my taste, it takes a bit more… and I don’t even care the roster to be invitational, “qualificational” or open.

Once you manage to get out of the US borders, and despite the fact our immigration officers are not as welcoming as yours (ours don’t insist to take your picture… and finger prints) you’ll notice there is a WIDE range of jousting events gathering up to 15 different nations on the SAME field !!! (Please feel free to re-read the header for this post.)
Funny enough, no winner of any of these events has ever called himself a World Champ !

Lloyd tore my heart with his description of the high difficulties to set up such events and that it is very hard to make it happen in the US because of the logistics and $$$ involved.
My opinion is IT IS POSSIBLE since “the Lysts” run by Steve is managing the numbers… competitors and mounts. It only needs to be duplicated.
The only obstacle is mentality: keyboard fighting is much more popular !

There is more jousting potential in the US (+CND) than in my own country. But humility, diplomacy, creativity… have built us a large tournament circuit. Hint ???

The US community majorly lacks... passports.
Instead of inviting the world "to come and play" as often stated, adventurous ones should just board a plane and familiarize with diversity. It is honestly a great refresher.
If not, they'll keep on doing the same things forever... and potentially wonder why internationals don't honnor the original invitation.


CHEST BEATING THUNDER
Once again and despite the location of this post, no one is specifically pointed at, as it is a group thing.

One will chest beat for he feels his balls are taking all the room in the saddle.
One will chest beat for he feels his historical knowledge could fill more than his head.
One will chest beat for he feels his suit out budgets the rest of the field.
One will chest beat for he feels his right to play was denied by a invitational program.
…
Once again apple, pears and peaches…

Argumentation is vain when not referring to the same parameters because of varying interests.
Show, comp’, educational presentations, hobby…
Surely enough the sport will have its big guns, will have its scholars… but it does not need them now. Now it needs level headed attitude, sense of compromise and friends oriented attitude.

Let’s first agree on a neutral ground. Give it a try… then another one…
A world wide jousting organization was built on the concept of “set up your version instead of trying to impose it, if considered interesting others will copy and you’ll have saved negotiation energy as well as gained extra event to participate in !”

Let the hooves take care of thunder, not the chests.


PULLING THE BLANKET GAME
Jousting is not dying… no winter ahead. No need to pull the blanket for your own comfort.

Unless… the idea is to promote “the sport ideal” as cover for your personal financial black ops… no need playing that game.

I think I save for the end the thing that puzzles me most about US jousting development… The mere fact that most Americans seem to consider the activity as the ONE way to make it in life.

Any conversation about events, equipments and even passing on the knowledge consistently ends up with someone envisioning a business perspective or a reason to advertise his business. This clearly positions the conversation on a commercial competition level and ruins the chances of stepping forward. Before BUYING there has been a step called TRADING.
Jousting, as a sport, is still in the early development days…
I’m sorry if my words are to offend my American friends but it seems to be THE cultural difference that is still affecting the development of our activity.

I can perfectly think of some professional jousting developments in the future and will support it BUT IT WILL BE A CONSEQUENCE AND NOT A GOAL of the early days management.

I have no cake to sell... but I have enough of my own to share with you for free if hungry.

Best regards to all patient readers who made it that far, you’re my heroes !!!
I love the sport too much to just shut up !

Have a good one…
Fred Piraux

Fred,
You have done so much to organize and promote the modern sport of jousting in all its form. When I hear someone talk about how they are teh face of jousitng and the person putting the sport back on the I think you are the person who should be the most insulted by it.
Thank you for putting the IJL together.

Lloyd wrote:In the end, I would really like it if we jousters could just get along well enough to move the sport forward. You don't have to step on people to get ahead and you don't have to be a prick to be respected.

I have been saying the same thing for years and I am glad that someone who's opinion I respect is saying the same thing.
Fred has some very valid points as well.
Joseph

Hi Fred-

Great post! Thanks for your perspective. I completely agree with your statement that 'TV exposure will benefit the sport when it’s sport oriented rather than entertainment specific.' That is a very sound opinion, as are a number of your other points.

Your comment that 'adventurous ones should just board a plane and familiarize with diversity. It is honestly a great refresher.' really touches a chord with me, since it address a point I emailed you about last week. Because it's one of your talking points, perhaps you could address it for everyone's benefit instead of just mine.

How exactly does someone 'just board a plane and familiarize with diversity'? What is the method involved with that? Is there a public list of events that accepts walk ins, especially walk ins without a horse? Is there a forum where such 'walk in friendly' events are listed? Where is 'the loop', and how exactly does someone on the outside of 'the loop' get involved in participating in European events? The prospect of competing with participants from 15 nations is fantastic, and tremendously attractive! I would love to know how to get our students active in that scene, but I'm not comfortable suggesting that they simply buy a ticket and crash an event without contacting the organizer in advance. Especially if they would like to participate.

I'm not clear on how it works, and would welcome the information on the cake you're offering to share. I'm sure others reading this thread would as well.

Thanks!

Gwen

I like cake.

I would like competitor registration info for both Lysts at Castleton and any European tourneys that want US competitors please.

(As long as they don't make me wear goofy comic book armour or act like an assclown for the TV.)

Fred Piraux wrote:*** the following may contain irony, sarcasm and/or tongue-in-the-cheek attitude mostly supported by my non native English speaking culture, just disregard if discomfort was to be experienced***

Have a good one…
Fred Piraux

That's why I love you and your vision so much Fred! Thanks for the guidance.

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:I like cake.

I would like competitor registration info for both Lysts at Castleton and any European tourneys that want US competitors please.

(As long as they don't make me wear goofy comic book armour or act like an assclown for the TV.)

Trystyn,
The application page for Lysts on the Lake will be finished very soon (a matter of days...the code monkeys are finishing it today...hopefully). Once it is up and running, I will blast the information out all over the various boards and lists...including this one.

However, in the mean time, please take a look at http://www.aplaisance.com to get an idea of the current rules (which will change a bit in the final version). Log in is "joust"...password is "lance".

a'Plaisance, Ltd. wrote:The application page for Lysts on the Lake will be finished very soon (a matter of days...the code monkeys are finishing it today...hopefully). Once it is up and running, I will blast the information out all over the various boards and lists...including this one.

The code monkeys are getting very close to having the application page finished. But, Steve, they say they want a raise.

Mike England wrote:Fred,
...I think you are the person who should be the most insulted by it.
Thank you for putting the IJL together.

Hi Mike !

Thanks but I like to think IJL is a team effort as it relies on people's participation in very various ways.

I also feel no one should be offended when a "show character" performs. Everyone can get carried away sometimes. Eye to eye contact very often changes the communication and the impression that temporary stardom fucks up... and then everyone behaves friendly again... until next show.

Black Swan Designs wrote: That is a very sound opinion, as are a number of your other points.

Really, Eeyore ?

How exactly does someone 'just board a plane and familiarize with diversity'? What is the method involved with that?

I always feel bad for recommending using a specific forum... but the IJL forum can be a crossroad for :
- participants
- staff
- organizers

My method would be to :
1. Register using my First and Last Name not to be considered as a spammer by the admission system. The adress is in my signature.
2. The yearly calendar gathers potentially IJL affiliated events
3. The "who is on" and "competiton" sections are a good place to self introduce and mention interest for specific events. Spontaneous candidatures.
4. Organizers can contact directly potential competitors while some even contact IJL secretary for their details.
5. NOTE The IJL secretary is occasionally requested to guide choices for both org/comp as some events are set up for specific time periodes, styles, gender.... I frequently recommend competitors that will meet organizers expectations. Should one need a scandinavian in 14THC equipement able to ride fresh jousting horse, a name list would be compiled as a recommendation.

The IJL was originally founded to spread international events by trading participations in one another's events. It is not expected to be a personal thing as it is happily accepted that you propose someone else to fill in. I could not make the Lysts in 2011 and suggested a friend who went. But since not everyone is part of a club... just go back to standard method above.

Event organizers always proposes spots according to horses available.
So internationals are always covered for horse - accomodation and food.
Rock star treatment (incuding flight tickets) is left at organizer's discretion.
Basically, if you are ready to pay for your flight over... you're likely to get a joust.

I would love to know how to get our students active in that scene

C'mon Gwen. You lobbied for one in the past, you know the basics !

Cheers,
Fred

jens wrote:

a'Plaisance, Ltd. wrote:The application page for Lysts on the Lake will be finished very soon (a matter of days...the code monkeys are finishing it today...hopefully). Once it is up and running, I will blast the information out all over the various boards and lists...including this one.

The code monkeys are getting very close to having the application page finished. But, Steve, they say they want a raise.

Raise?! I threw some raw meat into your cage last week!

*Crack* Back to work!

(ok, I'll double your salary....again...)

Hi all,
Whenever the subject of jousting comes up, I find it interesting to see how folks can be so quick to focus on some detail, be it the personalities involved or the particular style of harness or lance, instead of focusing on the common elements.

I usually refer to jousting as an example of death of a thousand cuts. There are lots of folks who can ride, some can ride in harness, fewer can handle weapons in harness, fewer yet who have access to a horse, that will joust reliably, fewer still have harness that provides a decent measure of safety, and finally having acquired all the preceding, you still have to train to develop the lance control. Each of these requirements limit those who will be able to joust successfully.

For better or worse, the show provides an opportunity to educate people as to what is involved with jousting. Granted there are some who don't want to be educated, they have pretty much already closed their minds, so no opportunity there. Others however will be open to learning more about jousting and might develop an appreciation for what all goes into it.

At Lysts this year we had folks from a wide variety of jousting backgrounds, SCA, IJA, IJL, Renn Faires, all working together. I hope that the attention that the show is getting will encourage folks to look into all the jousting possibilities that are out there.

Regards,
Dave/Alexis

p.s. Fred, I'll dust off that passport and see about paying you a visit out that way

Sir Alexis wrote:Hi all,
Whenever the subject of jousting comes up, I find it interesting to see how folks can be so quick to focus on some detail, be it the personalities involved or the particular style of harness or lance, instead of focusing on the common elements.

I usually refer to jousting as an example of death of a thousand cuts. There are lots of folks who can ride, some can ride in harness, fewer can handle weapons in harness, fewer yet who have access to a horse, that will joust reliably, fewer still have harness that provides a decent measure of safety, and finally having acquired all the preceding, you still have to train to develop the lance control. Each of these requirements limit those who will be able to joust successfully.

For better or worse, the show provides an opportunity to educate people as to what is involved with jousting. Granted there are some who don't want to be educated, they have pretty much already closed their minds, so no opportunity there. Others however will be open to learning more about jousting and might develop an appreciation for what all goes into it.

At Lysts this year we had folks from a wide variety of jousting backgrounds, SCA, IJA, IJL, Renn Faires, all working together. I hope that the attention that the show is getting will encourage folks to look into all the jousting possibilities that are out there.

Regards,
Dave/Alexis

p.s. Fred, I'll dust off that passport and see about paying you a visit out that way

+1

question .... last night i watched and noticed they are drilling holes in the shaft of the lance. it seem they are doing this to make them break easier. or is this just me?

metalmasher wrote:question .... last night i watched and noticed they are drilling holes in the shaft of the lance. it seem they are doing this to make them break easier. or is this just me?

That's a possibility, but one of the other things they did for the show is mount go pro cameras on the end of the lance, so my guess is that the holes they drilled were camera mounts for the go pro.

i am re-watching it now. i was sure that is was a lance shot going up the shaft i saw it first.

MM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7JoS1cP2fY

yea at 23sec mark

and a real good shot of what i am talking about at 0:46

thanks for looking and i am really wanting to see and hear what you think

MM

check out the 1:44 mark

When they use pine lances, the usually drill them about every 24"....two holes, 90 degrees from one another....since pine tends to bend and is more difficult to break. However the hemlock lances, which Charlie seems to prefer, tend to break better than pine so they don't drill those.

Even he is interested in some level of safety.

An interesting note....for the last episode (#6), which is the tournament at Estes Park, they are using 12" balsa tips on the end of the lances.

My wife recently came up with a great analogy of why many of us use balsa....it's the "safety glass" of the jousting community. Because the grain is much shorter, it tends to break more blunt...i.e. with fewer (if any) long pointed shards (which, of course, can be quite dangerous). Higher density balsa (15lb + range) packs quite a wallop and if heavy enough is as dense as oak. Of course, once you blow past that, you encounter (with my, as well as the HE, lances) 1.25+ inches of shaped poplar which doesn't bend.

After seeing my lances this past weekend, I was pleased to hear Charlie acknowledge that once you blow past the balsa tip, that our lances would hit with as much, if not more, force than his (with the addition of a grapper/arret).

a'Plaisance, Ltd. wrote:
After seeing my lances this past weekend, I was pleased to hear Charlie acknowledge that once you blow past the balsa tip, that our lances would hit with as much, if not more, force than his (with the addition of a grapper/arret).

Interesting.

I have used balsa tipped lances against the Gridded Grandguard in the past and am seriously looking at making that our pro division for the Pro Joust League.

Most people will break the balsa, get some points. The good guys will be able to blow through the balsa and score better when the drive the solid section in. Takes a lot more skill, opens up this style of joust to more people and will look better. Historical style grapers to be used of course.

And Fred is da man. Well said Fred.

I always thought in spite of all the hoopla about safety that the balsa inserts were so that you could have a properly tapered lance ( a very expensive process) and not destroy it on every pass.

LeeC wrote:I always thought in spite of all the hoopla about safety that the balsa inserts were so that you could have a properly tapered lance ( a very expensive process) and not destroy it on every pass.

Most of the dowel jousting is done with balsa inserts. KoM and New Riders are the only people I know of not using balsa.

Tapered lances not only look nicer they tend to have a lot less wiggle than the 1-1/4" dowel used most commonly. if you look at some of the shots of KoM jousting you can see a lot of flex in the lances. Less wiggle mean better targetting.
There is also an argument to be given for improved balance in the tapered lances. And an argument for the additional mass of the tapered lances having additional forward momentum that will absorb some of the impact force coming back to your hand/shoulder.

LeeC wrote:I always thought in spite of all the hoopla about safety that the balsa inserts were so that you could have a properly tapered lance ( a very expensive process) and not destroy it on every pass.

That is certainly one of the reasons but with socketed/tapered lances you can use any kind of insert.

Rod has made some wonderful, and inexpensive, one piece tapered lances for some of his jousts in the past (i.e. IronFest last year) with steel coronels. Best solution yet, imo, but not very many folks have the kit or training to handle those lances. He might pop on here and explain how they were made but my understanding is that they are fairly quick and easy to make. But, yes, all that work goes away with a single hit.

Btw, for those who haven't read it yet, Noel Fallows book has a reference to two piece lances, with inserts, being used in the 15th c. for pretty much the same reason we use them today...less expensive.

Mike England wrote:

LeeC wrote:I always thought in spite of all the hoopla about safety that the balsa inserts were so that you could have a properly tapered lance ( a very expensive process) and not destroy it on every pass.

Most of the dowel jousting is done with balsa inserts. KoM and New Riders are the only people I know of not using balsa..

I recently learned that Knights of Mayhem use them on occasion....they just don't talk about it much.

So, at the risk of being overly optimistic, perhaps we're slowing working towards a consensus on standardizing some of the gear. If we can do so, it will make it easier for folks to have more opportunities to joust.....assuming they can play nice with each other

On a somewhat related topic, I wonder what the resource base is for folks interested in getting started in jousting are. By this I mean where can folks go to get started in jousting where they can get quality instruction without getting barked at.

I know we try to be as hospitable as we can down in Texas and Jeff has his program out in San Diego, do folks know of other places where there are established places to learn?
Dave/Alexis

p.s. I know this should probably be another thread/topic, but have to get some discovery out this morning, so should be doing legal work instead

a'Plaisance, Ltd. wrote:

Black Swan Designs wrote:I think anyone who wants to do something other than 'Heavy Metal' jousting is going to have to go to Europe, Jeff included.

Not at all.

Lysts on the Lake is now the largest competitive jousting tournament in the world and will be even larger in 2012...and it is certainly not a "heavy metal" jousting event. It is affiliated with the IJL just like many other events in North America.

To expand a bit on my previous post...

Interest in IJL affiliated events has been growing quite nicely in North America lately. This year alone we've had:
- Lysts on the Lake
- The Trillium Challenge
- Lys de Argent
- The Grand Hastilude
- Tournament of the Phoenix

I know of 3 additional events that folks are interested in getting on the calendar for 2012 and even some interest in Estes coming into the fold. There have been well over a dozen new members added to the IJL roster from the US this year alone and several more in the next few months.

I, for one, look forward to what the future holds for us. Exciting times!

Tournament of the Phoenix 2011 was NOT an IJL affiliated event this year. Apparently there has been misinformation about it, but we did not apply for IJL affiliation this year. 2009 and 2010 were affiliated, 2011 was not.

For those interested in learning to joust, please visit:
http://historicenterprises.com/horse-kn ... 5_155.html
My regular KnightSchool website has experienced some hacking, so we're revising it. It can usually be found at:
http://www.KnightSchool.us or http://www.KnightSchool.tv
I run monthly group sessions with my 4 horses, on the first Saturday of most months, and am available for outreach instruction and clinics, either private or group.
Please inquire with me at info@knightschool.us or call our office line at 760 789 2299.

Jeffrey Hedgecock wrote:Tournament of the Phoenix 2011 was NOT an IJL affiliated event this year. Apparently there has been misinformation about it, but we did not apply for IJL affiliation this year. 2009 and 2010 were affiliated, 2011 was not.

For those interested in learning to joust, please visit:
http://historicenterprises.com/horse-kn ... 5_155.html
My regular KnightSchool website has experienced some hacking, so we're revising it. It can usually be found at:
http://www.KnightSchool.us or http://www.KnightSchool.tv
I run monthly group sessions with my 4 horses, on the first Saturday of most months, and am available for outreach instruction and clinics, either private or group.
Please inquire with me at info@knightschool.us or call our office line at 760 789 2299.

Ah, that would be why it's not listed in the IJL rankings. I was wondering.

I believe we made it clear in our announcement of the event on the IJL forum.

http://ijlforum.phpbb3now.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=614

That's why it was not listed in the "IJL Tournaments" section but instead in the "Training, shows and workshops" section.

I'm sorry if people made incorrect assumptions about our event, but we never announced nor intimated that this year's tournament was IJL affiliated.

a'Plaisance, Ltd. wrote:Ah, that would be why it's not listed in the IJL rankings. I was wondering.

Hi Steve,

IJL ranking only integrates IJL affiliated events duely supported by an audit report returned after the competition has been run.

Results are ranked for 2 years and all integrated events are listed on the ranking page.

To further support the IJL development, I'm currently assisting a new Auditor candidate, adding some more possibilities in the future.

Cheers,
Fred

Fred Piraux wrote:

a'Plaisance, Ltd. wrote:Ah, that would be why it's not listed in the IJL rankings. I was wondering.

Hi Steve,

IJL ranking only integrates IJL affiliated events duely supported by an audit report returned after the competition has been run.

Results are ranked for 2 years and all integrated events are listed on the ranking page.

To further support the IJL development, I'm currently assisting a new Auditor candidate, adding some more possibilities in the future.

Cheers,
Fred

I was familiar with this part, I just wasn't aware that TotP wasn't affiliated this year...I just assumed it was because it has been the last couple of years. No biggie.

Fred,
I'll be happy to help develop up IJL events here, just let me know what the steps are to become an auditor and I'll help out any way I can.
Regards,
Dave

Guess I should have said, I'll help out whether an auditor or not
Dave

Sir Alexis wrote:Fred,
I'll be happy to help develop up IJL events here, just let me know what the steps are to become an auditor and I'll help out any way I can.
Regards,
Dave

Hi Dave !
Would be a pleasure.
I have PM'd you on that topic on IJL forum 2010-12-08
You can still get it in your inbox.

Cheers,
Fred

Fred Piraux wrote:

Sir Alexis wrote:Fred,
I'll be happy to help develop up IJL events here, just let me know what the steps are to become an auditor and I'll help out any way I can.
Regards,
Dave

Hi Dave !
Would be a pleasure.
I have PM'd you on that topic on IJL forum 2010-12-08
You can still get it in your inbox.

Cheers,
Fred

Fred,
I'll be putting him up for discussion on the BoR forum later today.