The Armour Archive

EOD School? Ye gad..please don't tell me I am going to be compared to him in more than one way...

I have a historical jousting question. I read that some of the tournaments if you got unhorsed your opponent got your horse as ransom?

Hi Liviatasia !

(Wish this question was adressed in a different thread not to take it any further off track ! )

You question refers to "tournaments" wich technically regroup a rather broad field of activities over a pretty large period... The joust could only be a section of a full tournament.

In the early tournament days, the event would look much more like a "private war on appointment".
Participants would agree on parameters such as location (occasionaly large areas including villages !) and numbers of participants or else...
The engagement was conducted like a war with ambushes and traps... leading to capture of ransom worthy opponents. You can then be certain that horses and equipement would equally serve the job and change owner in such tournaments.

When it comes to jousting and regardless of the sofistication of the rules in use... it would have been possible for the unhorsed jouster to even offer his mount as a sign of appreciation or even as the payment of a stupid bet ! Don't feel sorry for the boys in those days... if you could afford to joust, you could probably afford losing a horse occasionaly !!!

On a side note : unhorsings were probably less frequent in the days than in NASCAR jousting.

Cheers !

For liviatasia and anyone else interested in the topic, David Crouch has written a very readable history of the tournament, titled (appropriately) 'Tournament'

I've just read it again, and highly recommend it.

Gwen

What I didn't like about the show is that there was little talk about the horses or horsemanship—breed, training, riding technique, individual personalities, etc. Only one, Jäger, was even named. The horses came off like pickup trucks—a means to an end by which the jousters display their manliness. You dominate your horse just as you dominate your adversary ("The RIGHT rein!").

Since I don't know a single horseperson who actually behaves this way, I'll blame National Geo's editing for this rather than the actual performers' behavior and attitudes.

BdeB wrote:I'm sorry I wasn't clear. The joke was about folks that have caused huge stinky threads on the Armour Archive before, not about bad business practices. AFAIK Clements has never been called a crook for instance. I've owned Dark Victory armour before and have some in the house right now in fact.

byram

Duke Icefalcon wrote:

BdeB wrote:Watched it on On Demand and cringed the whole time. Then got to see John Clements on the "Fight Book" show. All we needed was a 'how to make armour' by Dark Victory, or "basic accounting" by Brian Price and we will be good to go!!!

Please don't rank on Dark Victory. They guy is a good man who is just trying to feed his family and gets poeple who do not have much of a budget on the field. Jordan should not be put in the same paragraph as folks who might have been unscrupilous.

With Respect,

Ice

Understood, Brother.

Have a great Thanksgiving,

Ice

Ken Mondschein wrote:What I didn't like about the show is that there was little talk about the horses or horsemanship—breed, training, riding technique, individual personalities, etc. Only one, Jäger, was even named. The horses came off like pickup trucks—a means to an end by which the jousters display their manliness. You dominate your horse just as you dominate your adversary ("The RIGHT rein!").

Since I don't know a single horseperson who actually behaves this way, I'll blame National Geo's editing for this rather than the actual performers' behavior and attitudes.

Dude they are just "beasts".

Warning: Above statement may contain sarcasm.

Mike England wrote:

Ken Mondschein wrote:What I didn't like about the show is that there was little talk about the horses or horsemanship—breed, training, riding technique, individual personalities, etc. Only one, Jäger, was even named. The horses came off like pickup trucks—a means to an end by which the jousters display their manliness. You dominate your horse just as you dominate your adversary ("The RIGHT rein!").

Since I don't know a single horseperson who actually behaves this way, I'll blame National Geo's editing for this rather than the actual performers' behavior and attitudes.

Dude they are just "beasts".

Warning: Above statement may contain sarcasm.

REAAALLLLY!!!!!!!!!!

I am glad that I don't have TV...reality shows in general thrive on conflict. and so does our society. people like to see others in "conflict. It makes them feel better about how their life is. Take the "real world" show... how close to Reality is that? lets put 12 people in a huge ass house that is paid for, they won't have to work, THEN stick cameras all over the place so that it will drive them crazy and not let them have any privacy (other than the bathroom) and see how long it take for them to get on each others nerves.....
Knights of Mayhem sounds like a good Idea but it also sounds like the "execution is poorly done... and with Charlies "faked " military career...I was in the Army from 89-96... spent my time in Mogadishu... I feel sorry for him... I charged more than one soldier with being a "PX Ranger"... heck even busted a 19 year old basic trainee for impersonating an NCO as well as having ribbons on his chest that there was NOWAY he could have earned(Vietnam)... anyway..I hope the show gets turned around into something that is respected by reenactment groups can stomach.. for the good of the cause...

Cheers ,

have a happy Thanksgiving

Thanks for the jousting answers!

I do have more questions so I'll start a new thread.

"Charlie wants to elevate Charlie" through "NASCAR Jousting", hurting/humilating apponents...

I think that about sums it up

Mike England wrote:

Ken Mondschein wrote:What I didn't like about the show is that there was little talk about the horses or horsemanship—breed, training, riding technique, individual personalities, etc. Only one, Jäger, was even named. The horses came off like pickup trucks—a means to an end by which the jousters display their manliness. You dominate your horse just as you dominate your adversary ("The RIGHT rein!").

Since I don't know a single horseperson who actually behaves this way, I'll blame National Geo's editing for this rather than the actual performers' behavior and attitudes.

Dude they are just "beasts".

Warning: Above statement may contain sarcasm.

Ah, the old Medieval Times (as in the dinner theater) mentality - I was told when we were first in training, by their head trainer, to "Ride them, Beat them or Eat them" - now, you want to talk about a prick...

Finn O'Shannon wrote:I liked it, but mainly cause it reminded me why I watch NASCAR and why I used to watch wrestling. Its over the top, and your just watching waiting for the train wreck.

The show could be so much better. I'm curious to how many people joust in the organization he is in. I need to look it up. Cause being World Champion out of 10 guys, might not be much.

I like the fact he is trying to make it mainstream, and well to be honest, you have to appeal to the masses, not the few folks, like most of us. And well, over the top, in this day and age wins out over substance.

Would I rather see Jeff and groups like that getting their own show and such, yes. But thats cause its more appealing to me.

But like Sir Gaston had said in another thread. I would expect this on Spike, not NatGeo. It would fit in perfect with Deadliest Warrior and Ultimate Fighter. Any reservations I have over this show, would be honestly over with, if it was there, cause thats what I would expect over there.

I pretty much echo what sir Finn said. The one guy was an incredible dick.

Brought to you by NewsCorp: Uncle Rupert knows what's good for you, and what you want.

He's listening right now!

CHARLIE DON"T SURF!

Sorry, had to get that out of my system. I brought the lack of protection for the horses up on the other thread. I don't think the whole mess would last too long once one of the horses eats a closet pole.

In one of the scenes you can see one of the rookies slam a horse in the arse. Huge explosion of hair and dust.

What's the big deal with Brian Price all of a sudden?
I only ever heard of him from his book.

Buster wrote:What's the big deal with Brian Price all of a sudden?
I only ever heard of him from his book.

Oh boy...Buster, do a search on his name here.

In particular, read this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=129990 when you've got some time. Its illuminating.

Buster is climbing a steep learning curve, and successfully. But don't slam him for asking such questions -- he's going to have more of these.

To sum up l'affaire Price, Buster: back in the day he did the field much good by writing TOMAR, and has since been very naughty with fiscal shenanigans, business fraud, and euchring people out of monies they had earned and were promised.

"I read that some of the tournaments if you got unhorsed your opponent got your horse as ransom?"
This could be a great spin-off show, sort of like the jousting version of the show "Pinks". I only saw the part of Knights of Mayhem that was on the show "The Soup" and that was enough.

Ronald

Should I be glad my apartment's cable package doesn't include Nat Geo?

Is Fight Book on Nat Geo as well?

Thanks!
Christopher

No slam on my part, KtR. Apologies if I came across as such; it was not my intent.

Fight book was on and ROCKED. They reenacted several of the plates from the book and really talked a lot about the ones with the guy fighting the woman and trying to figure out what instances it would occur.

You might check out the NatGeo website to see if there is an episode online. So worth it.

Just saw Knights of mayhem last night ....

Hicks on horses with craptastic gear and terrible attitudes. I don't think I could watch it again with any interest.

Haven't seen fight book.

I hate to admit, but I keep watching this show. Its like a train wreck, I try to advert my eyes, but keep looking. I think I am now beginning to understand why some people watch Jersey Shore.

Granted, I keep finding myself yelling at the TV, either saying your an idiot, or what heck are you doing. But its still guys getting rocked on horses with lances, so I guess thats why I keep watching it. Though I would rather it be like ESPN highlight reels. Just show the jousts and hits, dont let anyone speak.

I am hoping some of the more reputable jousting companies, that have tv deals in the works get them off the ground, cause I would much rather see folks who actually really care about the historical part as well as the sport, do this right. I cringe everytime I see these guys jousting in blue jeans and such.

Though it was funny last night watching, when the only judge, awarded points to Charlie, even though it was perfectly clear he didnt hit the guy in the Encranche, and instead about impaled the guys leg, so he would win. I can now see how he became "World Champion". I guess if you pay for everything, thats the title instead of CEO. :p

Yeah when he proclaimed himself as a "world champion" I was pretty much done with watching that dudes self-aggrandizing antics. Granted I know that the reality TV show is based on conflict and over the top attitudes but still I think they would have done much better for themselves and their sport in the long run if they had presented themselves in a more respectable manner. Some focus on a few of the fabulous horses would have been nice. They do seem to be lucky enough to have some awesome animals but they treat them more like demolition derby cars than the majestic creatures that they are. Kind of made me ill.

I watched - I thought it was weird Charlie won that one. I asked on the group but I doubt I'll get an answer.

I loved the opening statment of last nights episode: " I am the face of Jousting. Without me the sport of Jousting dies."

It is a wonder he can even mount a horse with an ego like that.

Count Johnathan wrote:Yeah when he proclaimed himself as a "world champion" I was pretty much done with watching that dudes self-aggrandizing antics. Granted I know that the reality TV show is based on conflict and over the top attitudes but still I think they would have done much better for themselves and their sport in the long run if they had presented themselves in a more respectable manner. Some focus on a few of the fabulous horses would have been nice. They do seem to be lucky enough to have some awesome animals but they treat them more like demolition derby cars than the majestic creatures that they are. Kind of made me ill.

Really? I've not seen anyone abuse or mistreat the horses on the show.

As for the World Champion moniker - I've got that one on my tagline as well. For the longest time, the Estes Park tournament was considered, by most, but not all, to be the closest thing we could get to a World Championship. The fact that it has only been won by the Americans, Canadians, and English, not withstanding. The logistics of doing a full World Championship are daunting at best, what with differing equine quarantine rules, the costs of getting competitors to the event and then having a horse for them to ride, finding accommodations and food, insurance, etc. Unfortunately, our sport isn't funded the way other sports are and you're lucky to get $500 in travel expenses (which goes pretty damn fast if you are trailering your mount). Estes has been surpassed by some other events (Lysts on the Lakes, for one) in opening their doors to a variety of jousters and helping them participate.

You might not like Charlie - its a freaking Reality Show, you are not going to see them being nice to each other; You might not like the sport aspect of jousting; But (and I know this is going to piss some people off, but when has that ever stopped me), if you are bashing it as being "unauthentic" and "ahistorical" when you are out hitting people with a rattan stick and pretending it is a sword, then you are just a hypocrite.

Will Shane's show be different? Of course, it is going to be more Ultimate Fighting Challenge/Survivor, i.e. a Reality Game Show, but if you have watched any of the UFC shows, you know they thrive on conflict - real or otherwise.

I was in a pilot for a Reality Jousting Show last year - they did their best to gin up controversy and conflict (and we were only there for one day). I have been jousting for the better part of 30 years, and I would love to see it finally become a popular sport. But that doesn't happen without $$$$, and businesses don't throw $$$$ at you unless they can profit.

Don't like the show - don't watch. Want to criticize? You have that right, but you might have a different take on it if you strapped up, saddled up and put your ass in the list. Different perspective than from the sidelines.

MJBlazek wrote:I loved the opening statment of last nights episode: " I am the face of Jousting..."

I thought Rod Walkers franken-crotch was the "Face of Jousting".

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:

MJBlazek wrote:I loved the opening statment of last nights episode: " I am the face of Jousting..."

I thought Rod Walkers franken-crotch was the "Face of Jousting".

HEY!! That's a low blow!

Lloyd wrote:

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:

MJBlazek wrote:I loved the opening statment of last nights episode: " I am the face of Jousting..."

I thought Rod Walkers franken-crotch was the "Face of Jousting".

HEY!! That's a low blow!

Why yes...I suppose it is.
It's kewl. That still scores in Charlie's league apparently...if you're Charlie.
But it's ok, because he has to win every purse for the sake of the Sport.

Lloyd wrote:Want to criticize? You have that right, but you might have a different take on it if you strapped up, saddled up and put your ass in the list. Different perspective than from the sidelines.

I said this about a month ago and started taking heat for being a Charlie fainboi.

Trystyn of Anglesey wrote:

Lloyd wrote:Want to criticize? You have that right, but you might have a different take on it if you strapped up, saddled up and put your ass in the list. Different perspective than from the sidelines.

I said this about a month ago and started taking heat for being a Charlie fainboi.

I know and I figure that I will get hit with the same. Oh well, Tryst we've been there. You know as well as I do that there are people with Bigger Egos than Charlie's in our sport. Hell, there are people with bigger egos on the Archive - its just that KOM has a show that puts it right in your face.

I am not saying that folks shouldn't criticize - I kinda agree with Charlie though that he is the face of jousting - somebody had to take over after I retired

What I would like to see is an event that could be a real World Jousting Championship and at the same time have a World Burhurt Championship. I mean, BotN has been holding world championships with only 4 participating teams. Get REAL $$$$$$ SPONSORSHIP - get the best of the best in both worlds, get them in one place, market the hell out of it, put it on ESPN et al, and put a definitive stop to all the crap.