The Armour Archive

ColdIron: Very insightful. In point of fact, with a full-arm cast from Butler General Hospital, I quickly found Pennsic impossible and had to leave after only a couple've days. Thanks to my Household for making breaking-down possible with broken-arm.

Max Von Halstern

Re:the human aspect. . . Once upon a time, the Navy ran a study. Maximum effective output from a body of people was calculated as a line graph, #people involved as x axis, effectiveness as y axis. The peak seemed to occur at just about 7/8ths of a person.

That, however is also a strength of the heavy system. Danger is a heavy handed but effective teacher, and in my so far short acquaintace with SCA heavy, shot calling is infinitely better than in boffer sports.

And as someone working to put together my own armor -- good lawd yes I plan to armor areas in which I have been blasted, because I value my hide and want to keep playing this game. Anyone who doesn't when starting out is inviting trouble.

Also, if you're smaller than the average fighter, you may want to get more armor coverage... I know I get hit from some wacky angles at my height (5'6"), partly because I don't spend enough time at practice lately. But yeah, if you're not knocking people around, you need to be able to withstand getting knocked around. The one time I didn't wear a vambrace I got hit just north of the wrist on my sword hand, and now it still gives me trouble occasionally a year and a half later.

People fighting in bathrobes are just asking to get hurt. More importantly- it's not my problem when they DO get hurt. I feel bad when it happens, but only because they can't play for a while. You want that much speed you need to pay the price, which is being in greater danger.

Hi,
I'm a new fighter from calontir. I hear we are a hard hitting kingdom. My advice for new fighters is, "Minimum sca armor is meant to keep you from being killed or seriously crippled." If your worried about broken bones, armor the area. When fighting in loaner armor I got hit squarely on the butt right near the hip by a hard swinging great sword. My response, added a war skirt.
My thighs are mostly unarmored because i can take hit there without worry. but i've got greaves because accidents happen and shins break faster than femurs.
Physics plays no favorites.

Thats my two cents for what its worth

Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi wrote:I hear we are a hard hitting kingdom.

You hear wrong. You are going to want thigh armour before you fight any Atlantians, Westies or guys from Jersey.

Nissan Maxima wrote:

Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi wrote:I hear we are a hard hitting kingdom.

You hear wrong. You are going to want thigh armour before you fight any Atlantians, Westies or guys from Jersey.

I will take that under advisement and close up the front of my war skirt as soon as i have more leather to make additional scales. Likely won't happen before Gulf but i will be able to before pennsic, actually i might have a whole new kit before pennsic.

That being said i believe in planning for accidents instead of the intentional so i covered everywhere that might break first.

Nissan Maxima wrote:

Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi wrote:I hear we are a hard hitting kingdom.

You hear wrong. You are going to want thigh armour before you fight any Atlantians, Westies or guys from Jersey.

Agreed .. I just had heat treated spring steel formed by Jeff Hedgecock creased by a Jersey Boy this past weekend. It wasn't a drastic dimpling crease, but the metal did what it is supposed to do in reaction to what the Jersey boy was trying to do ...

I have fought in Calontir & in Atlantia. Calontir is one of the lighter kingdoms, until they pick up a greatsword. I have never been hit so hard so consistently as I have against Calontiri with greatswords.

Nissan Maxima wrote:

Oddbjorn_Mjolksiglandi wrote:I hear we are a hard hitting kingdom.

You hear wrong. You are going to want thigh armour before you fight any Atlantians, Westies or guys from Jersey.

Depends on the Atlantian or Westie. I don't necessarily wear much. Then again, my left thigh doesn't feel much anymore...

In terms of injury prevention, there's a lot of reasons why wearing some kind of leg armor is a good idea that doesn't have anything to do with broken bones.

Man this thread has gone all over. I don't think there is an inherit problem with SCA combat but an inherit problem with how the combat in interrupted. To use Blackbow's analogy when playing most any sports, like football, the rules are defined. You know when someone is holding or when they are offside. SCA combat is not that easy to define. I have played all over the known world and in more than one Kingdom I have been told when facing "X" fighter I will need to hit harder. Now this is not harder from one kingdom to the next but within the same kingdom. Is "X" fighter breaking a rule because his calibration is higher than the other fighters? Some might say yes and some might say no. If and I say if there is a problem here it is not with the SCA combat but with the combatants.

Now we do play a physical sport and there should be no doubt in that, I love what we do and though I am limited these days I still get out there and do it. I have always said you will get bruised and you will be sore at times from fighting, but for me that's a good sore usually. I think some use that as a crutch but again that goes back to the individual.

Now to armor. Other than what is required by Kingdom then it's on the individual. Some do need to learn what they can accept and feel comfortable with. I don't wear shoulders, upper arm or hip protection. I am 5'9" and 215 lbs so I am good at that. My son is just about fully armored but he is 6'3" and 140lbs (yes those numbers are right). You had better believe we hit each other solid in the back yard, but having as much armor on as he does helps him. The body type makes a difference on what one can accept and often people need to realize that.

my 2 cents,
Vebrand

Is no one going to mention the lack of corndogs?

Bulby37, your from Meridies and have not learned you can hide those in your centerboss yet. Man kids these days. You have to get one of the metal ones to double it as a solar oven for the corn dogs.

Vebrand

A very interesting thread, I'm relatively new to the game having only authorized about two years ago. But I can say with absolute certainty, we all make our own choices after satisfying the minimum requirements.

I personally love my armor as my body is far too pretty to get beaten to a pulp or patterned with different colors... This is my choice because i like the style of 14th C armor and because I am not a very proficient fighter (yet). However there are others in Lochac who choose to wear minimum armour for various reasons.

To my way of thinking, when i am fighting them, I have to be lucky just once to get in a good solid hit. They have to be lucky all the time to avoid that good solid hit.

never go without cuisses. Deep vein thrombosis.... it will kill you at the worst, the best is six months being a paper doll on major blood thinners and a few weeks after while your system goes back to normal.

We have had two SCA-heavy-fighting Archivers who have died of deep vein thrombosis. While not a large enough sample to be considered scientifically significant, it's good enough for me to armour my legs with steel, wear a mail skirt and accept any leg shot I feel as a kill. Since I got the mail skirt, I haven't had a single leg bruise. Now some shots feel "funny" like a push or something but I can call them good and rely upon my opponent to tell me that it wasn't good if he or she feels so. It's only a game, and there are plenty of other fights to be had. No fight is ever worth deep vein thrombosis IMO.

there are so many different causes and factors that can lead to dvt that i dont know that we should jump to conclusions. i dont know if the very low level of trauma our legs get from rattan could be a factor or not (ive never heard of a muay thai fighter suffering from dvt and their legs take a ton more trauma). the more commom causes are weight, protein levels, and being sedentary. if we are encouraged to stand up and stretch our legs each hour we are on a plane i would argue that being 100lbs overwieght and playing wow for 8 hours straight is more dangerous that rattan.

i recommend folks wear leg armour for comfort, i would be uncomfortable suggesting to them that if they dont they could die. at least if we want our sport to continue to grow as it has for so many years.

regards
logan

Aaron wrote:We have had two SCA-heavy-fighting Archivers who have died of deep vein thrombosis. While not a large enough sample to be considered scientifically significant, it's good enough for me to armour my legs with steel, wear a mail skirt and accept any leg shot I feel as a kill. Since I got the mail skirt, I haven't had a single leg bruise. Now some shots feel "funny" like a push or something but I can call them good and rely upon my opponent to tell me that it wasn't good if he or she feels so. It's only a game, and there are plenty of other fights to be had. No fight is ever worth deep vein thrombosis IMO.

Two data points are all I need to consider protecting my legs. Nobody else has to die so I'm more convinced. And I like the historical armour, etc... Yes, there are data points on the other side as well. Some people just plain can't be hurt, never bruise and go on to live long lives while fighting completely without injury. IMO it's a bell shaped curve and Sarnac and Severn ended up on the bad end of that curve.

I am in the process of reducing the weight of my kit. In the process I am dropping my saddle side leather legs, with 5 lame knees. In favor of some hidden armour, motor cross shins and knees with some modifications to add protection to the sides of knees and additional strapping. And some underarmour compression shorts, with built in shock pads for thigh and hip protection. (they are made for football players but they work OH do they work)

You can go lighter and not comprimise safety, in the SCA. If your armour isnt fitted propperly or just in poor shape, you can expect to get injured. This is true in any full contact sport.

The last event I attended was Tourney of Friends, and there were 2 injuries, one was a person who got knocked out, and the other was a deep bone bruise (initially thought to be broken) on the forearm. The knocked out case, was partially due to a hard wrap shot to the back of the helm, that was fitted to tightly with a chainmail coif that was too small on underneath that wasnt giving propper padding for the impact. The arm injury was a combination of factors, newer fighter, no forearm protection.

Somethings can be prevented with as the military calls it, propper risk assessment, and PMCS on your equipment.

I check my chainmail hauburk once a week and the rest of my armour, and inspect my weapons once a week on saturday if not friday night. This way I know for practice or for an event my equipment is good.

My biggest problem with the current armour standards is that ridged sternum protection is not required SCA wide. I do think that is something that should change, due to the nature of our sport.

tourney of friends in atlantia? i only ask because there has been no discussion of injuries on the marshals list. also, have there been reports of sternum injuries recently? ive not heard of any and if we are not seeing actual injuries (those confirmed by a medical doctor) we should not worry about our current armour standards. for the amount of fighting that happens every day of the year in the sca we have a very safe sport. i think a small part of that is our armour stand while the main reason is that we are all competing against friends.

regards
logan

Said ibn-Ali wrote:I am in the process of reducing the weight of my kit. In the process I am dropping my saddle side leather legs, with 5 lame knees. In favor of some hidden armour, motor cross shins and knees with some modifications to add protection to the sides of knees and additional strapping. And some underarmour compression shorts, with built in shock pads for thigh and hip protection. (they are made for football players but they work OH do they work)

You can go lighter and not comprimise safety, in the SCA. If your armour isnt fitted propperly or just in poor shape, you can expect to get injured. This is true in any full contact sport.

The last event I attended was Tourney of Friends, and there were 2 injuries, one was a person who got knocked out, and the other was a deep bone bruise (initially thought to be broken) on the forearm. The knocked out case, was partially due to a hard wrap shot to the back of the helm, that was fitted to tightly with a chainmail coif that was too small on underneath that wasnt giving propper padding for the impact. The arm injury was a combination of factors, newer fighter, no forearm protection.

Somethings can be prevented with as the military calls it, propper risk assessment, and PMCS on your equipment.

I check my chainmail hauburk once a week and the rest of my armour, and inspect my weapons once a week on saturday if not friday night. This way I know for practice or for an event my equipment is good.

My biggest problem with the current armour standards is that ridged sternum protection is not required SCA wide. I do think that is something that should change, due to the nature of our sport.

Duke Logan,

I agree we have a very, very safe sport. But when armouring new fighters I strongly suggest armouring their thighs well. I could line up all the fighters in the SCA, ask them to divest themselves of their identifying features (belts, crowns, etc...) and I bet I could identify the knights and royalty by the sudden pain in my thigh when I face them. It seems to be a whickedly fast and strong wrap shot to the thigh or buttocks is a KSCA calling card.

So therefore, until they are the KSCA level skill, I suggest that they armour their thighs and cover their butts.

-Aaron

Duke Logan,

No serrious sternum injuries that I know of. But I and know of others that have been "gigged" pretty hard in the chest by unpadded thrusts or broken thrusting tips, that have been pretty hard. Worst case scenario is a person gets hit with a near excessive shot or a good stiff hard thrust to the sternum, there is a possibility of breaking of the ribs or the ziphoid process. (granted its a slim chance but it is a chance)

But this is just me erroring on the side of caution as oppossed to reacting to a string of injuries.

So to add to the discussion of broken ribs, I took a shot in the ravine at Gulf Wars this year that managed to break a rib. Situation was I was charging a shield wall with sword and shield as I made contact with the shieldmen in front of me I dipped slightly and raised up (think football blocking). As I lifted a spearman hit me on the right side with a stout thrust.

Note: I did not think it was excessive and I did not realize the extent of the injury at the time.

Basically the combination of my being vertically extended, having pressure and force going forward amd my body armor being made for my non-extended torso.

The only person I blame is me, just a weird set of circumstances, I was able to fight the rest of the week and based on my Dr. visit last week should get the go ahead to be back on the field either this weekend or next.

For those who are interested the shot was under the arm pit and the fracture was near the sternum (which apparently is a good thing as it is more stable?)

i am not advocating folks not wear armour. i just mean to caution us any time we start to take that personal preference (or assumptions of what might happen) and replace data when we suggest additional armouring requirements. if there have not been a number of injuries suggesting a failing in our armour standard it should remain personal choice (except, of course, an elbow behind the shield....... ).

if we really wanted to cut down on actual injuries (ones requiring real medical attention) we should do away with running and haybales in my opinion. ive seen more folks hurt by those two things than all rattan injuries combined and doubled.

regards
logan

Said ibn-Ali wrote:Duke Logan,

No serrious sternum injuries that I know of. But I and know of others that have been "gigged" pretty hard in the chest by unpadded thrusts or broken thrusting tips, that have been pretty hard. Worst case scenario is a person gets hit with a near excessive shot or a good stiff hard thrust to the sternum, there is a possibility of breaking of the ribs or the ziphoid process. (granted its a slim chance but it is a chance)

But this is just me erroring on the side of caution as oppossed to reacting to a string of injuries.

Weird happens.

My visor is locked in place by a spring pin and a latch, and gravity.

At a local war practice I got hit in the visor by THREE polearms/spears. One thrust hit the spring pin from the side. One thrust threw back the latch. The last thrust pushed my visor up one inch. I'm VERY grateful there were not four fighters aiming for my face! But it was a "weird happens" sort of thing.

Three shots to the face is definately good, and any armour failure I view as granting my opponent the victory, so I exited the field as quickly as I could. It was funny that three of them targeted me, and therefore were not targeting others!

-Aaron

im an advocate of cuisse plates for one reason alone. personal experience. after my first surgery on my ankle following doctors orders to the letter ( while on active duty army, and it great shape pre-surgery) I got a pulmonary embolism and DVTs. I was informed by the treating doc that having had countless thigh bruises there is scarring in my vessels from the tissue damage. this aided getting DVTs post surgery.. I wore no cuisses for a while, light ones even longer, and went to splints a few years ago.

dukelogan wrote:i am not advocating folks not wear armour. i just mean to caution us any time we start to take that personal preference (or assumptions of what might happen) and replace data when we suggest additional armouring requirements. if there have not been a number of injuries suggesting a failing in our armour standard it should remain personal choice (except, of course, an elbow behind the shield....... ).

if we really wanted to cut down on actual injuries (ones requiring real medical attention) we should do away with running and haybales in my opinion. ive seen more folks hurt by those two things than all rattan injuries combined and doubled.

regards
logan

Funny you mention the Haybales..lol Pennsic XL haybales claimed my right Knee ACL and medial Meniscus.

I agree with you on the haybales, there has to be a better way.

What any fighter may or not need is completely dependent on the nature of the fighter and their fighting activity and objectives (e.g., 6'5" employed jock guy whose solid and looking to fight at the top level vs a 5'2" unemployed noob girl whose skittish and looking to get authorized eventually). Depending on what Kindgoms they might be in, their needs could vary dramatically. One might need to get functional armor of their own going rapidly. The other might need to comfortably build-up safer and nicer bits and pieces over time. One might to best in a number of ways based on SCA minimal armor, the other might need more protective sorts of kit. The answer, then, depends on context and objectives...

Max Von Halstern

maxntropy wrote:What any fighter may or not need is completely dependent on the nature of the fighter and their fighting activity and objectives (e.g., 6'5" employed jock guy whose solid and looking to fight at the top level vs a 5'2" unemployed noob girl whose skittish and looking to get authorized eventually). Depending on what Kindgoms they might be in, their needs could vary dramatically. One might need to get functional armor of their own going rapidly. The other might need to comfortably build-up safer and nicer bits and pieces over time. One might to best in a number of ways based on SCA minimal armor, the other might need more protective sorts of kit. The answer, then, depends on context and objectives...

Max Von Halstern

This is so true. A person's physical size can and does play a role in "actually needed" amounts of armour. In the attached pic you can see two almost identical kits but there is much more to the kit on the person on the right. Tofa needs a bit more armour on her arms/legs/shoulders than I do. It can be hidden however.

regards
ThorvaldR

i just want to comment on how good both of you look in that picture. thank you so much for trying to keep the appearance standard high!

regards
logan

Thorvaldr Skegglauss wrote:

maxntropy wrote:What any fighter may or not need is completely dependent on the nature of the fighter and their fighting activity and objectives (e.g., 6'5" employed jock guy whose solid and looking to fight at the top level vs a 5'2" unemployed noob girl whose skittish and looking to get authorized eventually). Depending on what Kindgoms they might be in, their needs could vary dramatically. One might need to get functional armor of their own going rapidly. The other might need to comfortably build-up safer and nicer bits and pieces over time. One might to best in a number of ways based on SCA minimal armor, the other might need more protective sorts of kit. The answer, then, depends on context and objectives...

Max Von Halstern

This is so true. A person's physical size can and does play a role in "actually needed" amounts of armour. In the attached pic you can see two almost identical kits but there is much more to the kit on the person on the right. Tofa needs a bit more armour on her arms/legs/shoulders than I do. It can be hidden however.

regards
ThorvaldR

I agree with what Duke Logan said, and add...you have a Mini-Me!

Yeah, Aaron it was kind of funny last summer when we finally got Tofa's kit together and we saw pictures from an event ..... it was amusing to say the least.

Both of you set the bar really high for all the other fighters. I feel the urge to look at my kit more closely and update some things now so I can keep up with you. Well done!

I classify SCA armor into 3 increasing categories:
1) Legal
2) Safe from injury
3) Comfortable

One of the problems is that OF COURSE your probability of getting hurt (by impact) in kit X is highly dependent on how often you actually get hit.
Even controlling for skill levels - greatweapon fighters get hit MORE than sword and shield fighters. They simply have less to block with. And getting hit more means getting hit hard enough to hurt MORE. Blows are not uniform - some are hard and some are not hard.

I know guys who could go 100 fights with no helmet and not get a scratch... until 2 of them fight each other.

This system actually works reasonable well for safety. It usually takes many "ow, that sucks" (typically passing through "I am done for the night") before you get broke ("See you guys in a couple weeks/months"). And if you are smart you will maybe think about protecting those spot in the interim.

What I don't like about this in the SCA context is that there is an athletic advantage to wearing less armor, and it's magnified by the fact that people who get hit less need less and less. Which is why I give knights a hard time about not wearing armor. All SCA time periods had armor and even if you want to hide bits due to anachronism - you should really be encumbering yourself to at least an average level. I am talking like 12 lbs of body armor or so, nothing ridiculous.