The Armour Archive

You know, the nifty ones cut out in the shape of a dragon, etc...

Ice Falcon usu. carries them at Pennsic. You might want to give him a holler.

Vinyl decals can be found at auto shops or cut with a circut machine the vinyl sheets are a bit expencive.

Armourbug here on the archive has a side business of making custom vinyl decals.

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decals on helmets are an abomination to god.

InsaneIrish wrote:decals on helmets are an abomination to god.

I disagree. Duct tape on a helm is an abomination to God. Decals are just acknowledging that abominations happen, but mine is prettier.

InsaneIrish wrote:decals on helmets are an abomination to god.

Insane Irish for SEM!

I think the vinyl decals look better than duct tape. Do you have a better solution?

HauoctheWild wrote:I think the vinyl decals look better than duct tape. Do you have a better solution?

Solution to what exactly?

How about we mark our helmets the way they did it in the Middle Ages???

Do you have a better solution?

Heraldic trappings. Surcoats, banners, shield covers can be removed and stowed when one isn't fulfilling a battlefield leadership role.
If it has to be on the helm (by rule or custom) why not a mantle?
If you decide you want it permanently displayed, etch and/or paint it on.

Just a few better solutions.

Albrecht

HauoctheWild wrote:I think the vinyl decals look better than duct tape. Do you have a better solution?

Heraldry?
A torse?
Shouting out "HEY! I'M ON YOUR SIDE!"

Pretty much what they did in period.


Not trying to be snarky, but decals on helms, to me, is a contradiction in terms when people make the argument that combat archery makes the battle more period. What could possibly make a battle MORE period than the fog of war?

II - A torse wouldn't work on every helm, and there ar a lot of households, units, etc - some who switch sides - so heraldry might not work either. I would be bummed to see a bunch of kick-ass Norse kits covered by a surcoat. The "I'm on your side" works in smaller combat, but Pennsic is another beastie, IMO.


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HauoctheWild wrote:I think the vinyl decals look better than duct tape. Do you have a better solution?

Diglach mac Cein wrote:II - A torse wouldn't work on every helm, and there ar a lot of households, units, etc - some who switch sides - so heraldry might not work either. I would be bummed to see a bunch of kick-ass Norse kits covered by a surcoat. The "I'm on your side" works in smaller combat, but Pennsic is another beastie, IMO.


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I agree with you completely.

That being said may I refer you to my above post about the Fog of War.
If we are going to throw out the "it makes it more realistic" card for other aspects of our system, then I see no reason why we should not do it here. What is more realistic than the Fog of War? Getting seperated from your unit and having to find your friends again without dieing?

It happened all the time in period, no reason why we should no do the same today. If you get lost and killed by your allies, oh well, Looks like you get an awesome "no shit I was there" story for the fire pit that night.

Dude, the point is not losing your friends.. it's knowing who is actually the enemy.

Maeryk wrote:Dude, the point is not losing your friends.. it's knowing who is actually the enemy.

Same difference.

Maybe I am just simple. But, if you are standing in front of me and facing me, chances are you are gonna get hit.
If you don't want that to happen it's on you to make sure I know you are my friend.

And yes, I HAVE killed my friends before by accident. It was flat out hilarious later. When we told the story.

yeah, but when there's a couple thousand on the field, with units flanking and rushing through, etc, it gets awful confused, awful fast. Hence the helm tape.

Now, while I think it would be AWE-SOME to see each side ENTIRELY done up in side-specific heraldic tabardry, the logistics are staggering.

I did hear of one guy who had red roses painted on his helmet, leaning on a tree (covering the blue tape on the front) and then proceeding to waste half a dozen reds though..

The time, cost and energy in getting one side to wear the same heraldry is just beyond the capacity of the SCA. There is nothing wrong with the tape identification and at least the decals are heraldic in design. (Although one year I stuck one of those damn Apple stickers on the side of a fellow squire's helmet.)

There are also examples of agreed upon field signs like a sprig of pine tied to your person to identify your comrades. So make sure the MOL brings a Christmas tree and a ball of twine to your next event!

Or a leek.


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And yes I've accedentally killed guys on my side in a melle - despite tape, heraldry, the fact the were facing the same direction I was....

And I've been accidentally killed by my own guys. At least I assume it was an accident.


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I've seen a bout with only four people on the field total on both sides and an archer still managed to shoot his only ally in the back.

Maybe I'm just more apt to lean toward a "more period" approach.
Most kingdoms have populace badges. I wouldn't go as far as to require it of people, but I don't think it's too tough to throw together a period appropriate (for your persona) fighting garment with a badge on it. Should last awhile if you only wear it to big events.
Make a stencil and apply a painted badge with acrylic paint with fabric medium.
Short on time, use the iron on stuff you find in sewing stores. You iron it onto the back of material, peel the backing off and iron it to your garment. Before peeling the backing off, you can cut the material to a design shape (from the stencil above). You can do complex heraldry. With some forethought, you can even figure a way to tuck the cut edges under to help mitigate fraying. Sew the edges down later as time allows.

I'm surprised nobody offers pre-assembled and ready to iron-on kingdom populace badges; either as described above, embroidered or even silk-screened. Iron it on, run a stich around the edge...done.

As far as fog of war, it happens anyway. A sticker or tape on a helm is going to do no better for it than heraldry. Situational awareness is what keeps you from killing allies.

Albrecht

Albrechtthesilent wrote:I'm surprised nobody offers pre-assembled and ready to iron-on kingdom populace badges; either as described above, embroidered or even silk-screened. Iron it on, run a stich around the edge...done.

This was actually the reason for my original query. I've been looking at this and have even made a few test items.

Custom embroidered patches are nice but in the sizes that would be historically accurate (and they're only accurate from the late 14th century on) they're cost prohibitive. I simply don't see people paying $20 a pop (and buying in the volume that would allow the price to get down to that level).

Custom vinyl decals for wars are very much within the price range of people but are, as has been pointed out, abominations to historical authenticity. Since they can, if properly done, be put to uses other than slapping on the side of helms, these are a pretty good product to offer.

Applique items are cost effective and historically accurate (again, for all the centuries that matter) but many of the kingdom badges do not lend themselves to simple production. A single color badge? Cheap and easy to produce. Multi-color badges with fiddly bits? They end up taking so much time and effort that they aren't particularly worth the effort. And people tend to get pissy when you suggest that maybe their heraldry should be altered.

Tabards. Too expensive. Too ugly. Not authentic for a lot of people.

Realistically it all comes down to money. Embroidered patches, fabric applique, tabards... all possible. But possible at a price that people will pay? I've got to say I'm impressed as hell with anyone who makes a living selling stuff to members of the SCA. That's hard to do.

There was a push last year to have Aethelmearc wear kingdom colors at pennsic, it was a bring your own fabric and someone would silkscrean the escarbuncle on it at larger events.
Red fabric with a 8" escarbuncle silkscrean on can make more then just the standard tabard.

they're only accurate from the late 14th century on

Strictly speaking as used as Livery, correct. But how we treat heraldry in the SCA as a whole...I dunno. I'm less fussy about the period usage of heraldry than using something very modern looking as a substitute. Stickers to represent a standing in an organization (Livery) when your persona wouldn't have used livery anyway. Do two wrongs make a right? I'm not going to pull the authenticity police on anyone at an event or anything over it. I "get" the "why" it's done. But what we're doing is putting the square peg in the round hole anyway. So the excuse that "well my persona wouldn't have worn heraldry" or "livery isn't period for my persona" is pretty empty at that point..

If what I'm interpreting you're looking for is correct, we're talking about embellishing your kit to be identifiable in a melee scenario; whether it's as a kingdom badge, household badge, other local group badge, or part of the military organization and command structure of your kingdom.
So, we're talking about melee events. If you only rock melee events, yeah you'll want something that'll last. If you get to 2 to 3 big melee events a year, the need for it to be the neatest, nicest, tailored surcoat takes less precedence.

This is the SCA. There's a sewing authority under almost every rock, leaf and twig. If you can sew together a basic tunic in a few hours, you can do the same for a tabard. It isn't a huge investment of time and material. If you're a part of any kind of group that melees together, the burden is less because you can share and trade skills with others in your group. If you plan it out and line up your materials in advance, I don't see why you couldn't make a simple heraldic tabard in the course of two weekends. The same can be said for shield covers (yes, they don't seem worth the effort to some, make them cheap and quick and view them as disposable; maybe lasting 1 season) or even a helm mantle.

The main ugly thing I see in tabards is that people don't pattern out the shoulders. They make a blanket poncho tabard. I agree those look like ass warmed over. Simple tabards can be made to look decent with little more effort.

As for expensive...I don't see it. More expensive than a sticker, yes. But not, "Oh I have to miss three events because my tabard was SO expensive" expensive.

No, I don't see this as a sole income for anyone. But if someone were already vending other goods, some sort of iron-on livery badges for SCA sounds like a nice side product. Maybe they won't fly off the shelves, but the simplicity will sell. Probably not big embroidered badges, no not likely to see many people pony up the cash for that. Maybe silk-screened or painted on with a stencil. Applique would be nice, but probably just time consuming enough to drive the price too high. Apart from the embroidered badges, these are all within the skill level of the slightly more than novice sewer. And they're just complicated enough to be in the "F@*k-it, I'll just buy one." scope of product.

By the way, I'm not picking on you specifically. I've seen this topic a lot locally. It boggles my mind. We can put all this effort into other things, but heraldic display (in my local area anyway) is overlooked. And the opportunity for it to be used with just a bit of effort is dismissed with the flip of the tongue...

Albrecht

Albrecht -

Also, the part of the Midrealm you live in is kind of "wonky" in terms of melee units - some strong Baronial Units, a couple strong shire units, lots and lots of households - some crossing state lines -

I would not be exaggerating with an estimate of 20 DIFFERENT units represented in Ohio alone. Many loooong established in their heraldy/battlefield appearance.

My guys span the gamut of SCA portrayals, in time period and cultures. I just ask them to wear green w/ white embattlements in some form, along with their baronial colors.

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The clouds lift, four warriors remain. A knight and his Baron against two rogue members of the populace.

The two groups approach and swiftly engage each other. The knight peels a single man off leaving the Baron to hold his man while the Knight can do what he does best. In the resulting skirmish, the Knight turns his back on the Baron and his opponent.

After a short battle the first rogue lies dead at the Knights feet. Swiftly he turns and zeros in on the second melee, targetting the man with his back to him he swiftly closes and proceeds to dispatch.....His Baron.
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This was a 2 on 2 we did at a Demo last year. I was the Knight. In approx 30 seconds with four people I got the sides messed up and ended up having to kill all three other people.

You want your sides known in battle? Make heraldry. Shout at each other. Scream your kingdoms name as you run towards them from behind enemy lines. Whatever.

I am typically not a huge fan of war fighting, but that confusion etc makes for some of the best stories.

Heh.

At a Belted Champions practice, man, many years ago...

One side was to yell "Steak", the other "Beer" - I was on the Beer side (as it should be)

Lines engage, fighting is as furious as you would expect - swirling mas of Knights, working to get position, blows thrown hard and fast. I spot one of my favorite opponents, HE Lutr of the Midrealm - who is on the other side - and engage. Caught him totally off guard, and throw a 3 shot combo. All three land solid, and clean.

Then HG Moonwolf is in front of me (similar helm and shield) yelling "BEER! BEER! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DIGLACH! BEEER!!!"

Whoopsie!

Come to think of it, that was the year one of the ballista crews he formed shot me in the head.... hmmm...


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Diglach mac Cein wrote:Heh.

At a Belted Champions practice, man, many years ago...

One side was to yell "Steak", the other "Beer" - I was on the Beer side (as it should be)

Lines engage, fighting is as furious as you would expect - swirling mas of Knights, working to get position, blows thrown hard and fast. I spot one of my favorite opponents, HE Lutr of the Midrealm - who is on the other side - and engage. Caught him totally off guard, and throw a 3 shot combo. All three land solid, and clean.

Then HG Moonwolf is in front of me (similar helm and shield) yelling "BEER! BEER! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DIGLACH! BEEER!!!"

Whoopsie!

Come to think of it, that was the year one of the ballista crews he formed shot me in the head.... hmmm...


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SEEEEEE!



the best stories!

My guys span the gamut of SCA portrayals, in time period and cultures. I just ask them to wear green w/ white embattlements in some form, along with their baronial colors.

And that is Exactly what I'm pushing for. I'm all for simplicity, but a little effort can make these things elegantly simple. Stickers are for your car bumper or the tool box in the garage.

Diglach mac Cein wrote:there ar a lot of households, units, etc - some who switch sides

You mean, just like in real life? Wonder how Migration Era folks recognized eachother in period? Wonder how anyone dealt with folks changing sides? I guess they all had duct tape.

How about an arm band that gets tied on. We have done it out here to good success. They were done in our principality colors, with the populace badge block printed on. Our royals at the time made them, and if they had time to do it, anyone does.

Cheers,

Blaine de Navarre wrote:

Diglach mac Cein wrote:there ar a lot of households, units, etc - some who switch sides

You mean, just like in real life? Wonder how Migration Era folks recognized eachother in period? Wonder how anyone dealt with folks changing sides? I guess they all had duct tape.

I think in a tournament it wasn't all that tough to figure out.

I'm not sure they ever did tournaments as large as we do.

I'm also here for a hobby.. not to relive the death and pestilence of the middle ages. YMMV.

That said, I'd love to see actual kingdom HERALDRY on people.. even if it's just a mantle, tabard, sticker, you name it. Then you only have to remember who your allies and enemies are out of the mumble kingdoms represented.

I seem to remember the Midrelm tying to have everyone wear "something that set them apart" as midrelmers. Or maybe that was just the Baron of Middle Marches all I remember was I already had a surcoat with the Middle Marches badge and my shield is white with two big dancing dogs on it. Wearing white and red in the Middle Kingdom tends to make things easy.
I do like the idea of arm bands... Maybe for pennsic one red and one blue. They would be bigger than the duct tape.