Concussions and CTE

[Tibbie Croser]

Do you think Gawin's conclusions apply better to a spear thrust to the head than a "normal" cut with a stick? I suspect a spear thrust to the front or side of the head may be the blow most likely to move the head and therefore the most dangerous.

I was wondering about the possibility of reducing head movement by having something along the lines of a football or motocross collar to give extra support to the head and neck. Aventails are good for weight, but they're not appropriate for all helms and they have no rigidity or elasticity. I'm imagining something like a medical cervical collar made out of heavy but somewhat flexible leather or plastic, or perhaps instead thick leather straps connecting helm to torso armor. Like a flexible version of the old jousting helms being bolted to the cuirass. I'm imagining this as perhaps extra support for fighters who have long, skinny, less-muscular necks. I emphasize that I'm not talking about something completely rigid. These are just rough ideas.

[John S.]

A SCA spear thrust is still different than a cut-and-thrust blow--we strike into a target instead of to it.

The more I think about his publication, the more my primary concerns about Gawin's analysis focuses on two points:
(1) Padding should not be modeled as an ideal spring, and
(2) I question whether the neck ever exerts NO force on the head.

If anything in the system gets deformed (whether temporarily like padding or permanently like a helm denting), it does work and that "uses up" the kinetic energy of the blow. This also spreads out the time of the impact--reducing the peak force. Reducing the peak force reduces the peak acceleration.

So an aventaille (for instance) not only helps by adding weight, it also helps by "sloshing around" as your head is displaced.

What you're describing sounds a lot like the neck braces used by racing drivers or the old-school cowboy collars attached to football shoulder pads. If I become worried about this aspect of my health, I would go a different direction and get an early 15th century great bascinet. Although it wouldn't be bolted down like the jousting helms you mentioned, the built-in aventaille/gorget plates would help connect the head and upper body. Since this type of helmet is popular with the ACL/BOTN steel fighters, it would also be way more accessible than a bolted down jousting helm.

[John S.]

If you're worried about it, you should also consider neck strengthening exercises. Look up neck bridges, neck isometrics, and shoulder shrugs with weights.

From a website pertaining to a contact sport specifically practiced by smaller female athletes. http://rollerderbyathletics.com/prehab-neck/
"Comstock’s study “found that for every one-pound increase in neck strength, the chances of sustaining head trauma fell by 5 percent.”[2]

FIVE percent reduced chances, for every ONE pound of strength gain? I will TAKE those odds!

The study (based on high school sports) also shows that girls are more susceptible than boys to concussions, and speculates that smaller neck circumferences (e.g. weaker neck muscles) with the same helmet sizes and weights may contribute. "

For what it's worth--I'm an average-sized American guy, but after years of doing one contact sport or another, my neck circumference is 19"+. I'm convinced this has helped prevent injury. Completely anecdotal, but consistent with at least some of the research.

[John S.]

I'm speculating with this next one, here's another thought about aventailles.

Visualize those old kids toys that inspired the phrase "weebles wobble but they don't fall down." The low center of gravity in combination with the shape made it difficult to tip over. Does an aventaille do the same thing by applying a torque which acts to push the head back towards vertical?

I'd have to know more about the specific type of rotational acceleration that causes concussions to say more about whether this is relevant.

[robstout]

It'd be interesting to see how easy (or hard) it would be to build up neck muscles. Our helmets weigh a lot, at least compared to the roller derby helms (think skateboard helmets), and I suspect most of our necks are pretty built up as it is (IIRC, my neck is 21-22 inches. I have either a huge neck, or no neck).

[boris_]

It'd be interesting to see how easy (or hard) it would be to build up neck muscles. Our helmets weigh a lot, at least compared to the roller derby helms (think skateboard helmets), and I suspect most of our necks are pretty built up as it is (IIRC, my neck is 21-22 inches. I have either a huge neck, or no neck).

Wrestling bridges would do that, that said I have no idea the shape of the people attempting it.

[John S.]

If I remember correctly, Tibbie is a female rapier fighter who is giving heavy a shot and has mentioned concerns about getting injured due to her smaller size. Hence my use of the roller derby example.

I imagine that there is a point of diminishing returns regarding neck strength and chance of concussion. The citation implies that a 20 pound strength gain would 100% reduce the chances of concussion. This is impossible, so a linear relationship cannot hold across the entire range. Intuitively, I would say those with smaller necks would see the most benefit but that everyone would get some benefit.

As to how easy it is--I'm not sure. I saw a pretty rapid increase in strength when I first started seriously training for sports, but I was also a teenager at the time. The real question is how easy it is for adults. Like most of us, I don't train like that anymore so I can't say for sure.

Even though it's convenient, neck size is also a secondary measure of neck strength. An increase in neck size correlates with an increase in neck strength if and only if body fat content is decreasing or staying constant.

[Amanda M]

The weeble wobble feeling of my HMB helm which is way overbuilt compared to an SCA helm and weighs about 15lb, went away completely when I mounted the padded aventail and chain aventail on top. It's anecdotal but then fighting with it I really didn't feel any sense of extra weight or instability. Until I was laying on the ground, then that fucker feels really heavy. My neck is pretty strong because I do barbell training that builds up your neck but the difference with the chainmail and padded aventail on there was huge.

[hrolf]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... l-cte.html

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

[hrolf]

Yeah, i'm glad i stopped playing at two-hand touch..

[Aaron]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... l-cte.html

That is a scary study.

[hrolf]

alma mater, represent!

[Diglach Mac Cein]

2 years after my initial diagnosis, and things haven't improved. In some ways I am getting worse.

Hand tremors are still sporadic, but when they are going I range from "I look like I am doing a nervous thing with my hands" to "I have trouble using silverware". I once broke 2 plates and 3 glasses in one week because I suddenly dropped them.

Vertigo is still common if I am moving too fast in a tight circle (like 90 degree turns back and forth while putting away groceries) or don't have a clear point of reference when walking - like total darkness or a plain white hallway.

Speech is still bad, some days worse than normal. On a good day people who have hung out with me a lot can tell what I am saying, on bad days, my wife doesn't understand me, and I end up using sign language or writing things down. I CAN work to enunciate better, but it is exhausting. And I can only do it for about an hour or so.

My bi-polar disorder is far more pronounced, I get manic or angry easily - often for no reason. My depression cycles last longer. Meds do help, but they have to change the dosage and mix often, since my brain "gets used to it". We're trying hard to avoid the real heavy duty meds, because of the side effects.

I'm giving up my '67 Nova for a safer car. I can still drive, for now.

I had 3 fighters at Pennsic mock my speech while I was doing inspections. That was shocking.


On the upside, my doc has given me the OK to try fencing. I'm using a helm as opposed to a mask, and I've padded it like my rattan helm was. I have to be aware if I get vertigo though. Not sure about melees.


And yeah, I've become that guy who has been pushing for fighters to get checked out for concussions - even low grade, telling them to not return too early, and change their helmet pads. MY squires are not allowed to use blue camp foam for helms.

Don't screw around with concussions - especially multiple ones over years. It's isn't the severity, it the grand total over time.

[CTrumbore]

Jeez Dig.. I had no idea it was that bad. And I've been saying it for years.. this one is going to hit the SCA hard. There's an old, old joke about "one too many headshots".. unfortunately.. it's not a joke anymore.

[Nissan Maxima]

I had 3 fighters at Pennsic mock my speech while I was doing inspections. That was shocking.

I need to know who those guys were.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

I had 3 fighters at Pennsic mock my speech while I was doing inspections. That was shocking.

I need to know who those guys were.

I got so pissed I pointed them to another marshal before I lost my temper.

All I know is one was Eastrealm Northern Army, one was fighting with the allies with a group all wearing blue and yellow surcoats, and the third was some generic fighter in red tape.

I got apologies from the MKEM, a couple of deputies, 3 eastern knights and the MK prince. Was told if I could identify them on the field, they would get pulled from battles.

[CTrumbore]

Yellow kitty cat and mountains on a blue tabard?

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Jeez Dig.. I had no idea it was that bad. And I've been saying it for years.. this one is going to hit the SCA hard. There's an old, old joke about "one too many headshots".. unfortunately.. it's not a joke anymore.

I'm officially considered fully disabled, due to CTE and TBI.

I applied for a job in a warehouse, but my speech issue makes me a work hazard. Same for about 4 other jobs in 4 other industries. Even the on-line customer service jobs are out, because my hand tremors can make my typing look like a turrets attack and at my best I type too slowly to pass the typing tests.

My old job - for 30 years - was sales. Mostly over the phone.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Yellow kitty cat and mountains on a blue tabard?

Possibly. The charge was yellow.

[thewhaleshark]

I had 3 fighters at Pennsic mock my speech while I was doing inspections. That was shocking.

I need to know who those guys were.

All I know is one was Eastrealm Northern Army

As a member of the EK Northern Army, I am disgusted by the reported behavior of my companion-at-arms and would love to help find who it is to vigorously correct the behavior.

"Mean and funny" has a fucking limit.

Any details you can recall would be greatly appreciated.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

I appreciate it Magnus, but not much sticks other than "guy with a beard, sword and shield fighter who was NOT happy he needed to replace / repair all his thrusting tips. Sword, spear, pole - everything. Just built them wrong.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Oh, and the other symptom I forgot (insert joke here) - my memory is spotty. I forget names of people I've known for 20 years. I have to make lists for EVERYTHING. If it has more than 5 steps, I make a list.

I also get lost on occasion. Last Pennsic I forgot how to get back to camp from the battlefield. Mind you, I've camped in the same spot since Pennsic 18. I forgot how to get to the grocery store I've used for 20 years, and is less than 2 miles away. GPS is my friend.

This doesn't happen often, but enough to notice. And if I'm tired / stressed, all my symptoms are more severe and prevalent.

[DanNV]

I have been concussed in armor a couple of times. I have had many less than concussive, but still hurt through 10 pounds of helmet and padding, hits over time. (Note, none of them were spear shots or thrusts, all we sword blows, either broad sword or two handed.) I had started to show a few symptoms of post concussive disorder then I had a traffic accident last Sept. Had a head ache and intermittent vertigo for 2 months. (We wont' talk about the back issues.) I now have issues with short term memory and occasional vertigo. Doc says it was a mild concussion.

With 20/20 hindsight and the likelihood of not being able to fight again, I can say we hit too damn hard. Even though we aren't trying to hurt our friends, I'm afraid we are doing just that, a little at a time and after 20+ years of it, it can add up. I'm not sure what we need to do about it, but the issue is there.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

I think one thing that could change is the pressure - especially with unbelts who are working to get knighted - to "suck it up and play hurt".

I've seen it happen over and over again - not "I got really beaten and am going to sit out" but guys limping off the field, or staggering after getting blown over a hay bale, etc. who are literally badgered into going back out.

That and outlaw blue camp foam as helmet padding. Stuff isn't designed for that use, and breaks down quickly.

[raito]

Sideways to the topic...

When I played HS football, our school had:
3 freshmen teams
2 sophomore teams (the school team, and the city league team)
3 junior/senior teams (varsity, jv, and jr/sr city league)

They'd divide all the freshmen who wanted to play into teams. Sophomores had to try out. Good players made the school team, those too stubborn to quit played city league, and the rest were out of luck. Jr/Sr players still had guys out of luck, but had more options. For example, I was on the city league as a junior, because the coach wanted me playing full time, but had a senior who deserved the jv position. I think each team had around 40 guys on it.

I was watching TV a couple weeks ago, and my high school was playing. But their varsity squad had only 25 guys on it. The school isn't any smaller. Something clearly is going on, and I think the sort of thing we're discussing here is what.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Aaron Hernandez had severe CTE; daughter sues NFL, Pats

https://a.msn.com/r/2/AAsjSlj?m=en-us

[Aaron]

Aaron Hernadez had CTE.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/21/health/aa ... index.html

[Baron Eirik]

Ran across this today

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

Sounds like the test should be run again. With correct materials made & mounted in a correct way (including straw padding cause why not right?), and using a far greater range of mounting systems and padding types. Would give a rather good set of data if done right.

[raito]

Ran across this today

I'll bet the area under those curves is pretty close to equal.

It's not the maximum that perturbs me, it's the slope of those curves.

[robstout]

I agree. Same force over less time = more acceleration, which is bad.

[SirRobert]

I have used horsehair liners for nearly 20 years now.

However, it is NOT felted horsehair. It is horsehair made into little balls, and stuffed into the channels of the liner. When, ever use, it starts to mat down (i.e. begins to get felted), you take the liner out and wash it. this makes it fluff up again. I do this 2-3 times a year. Makes it act much like closed cell foam.

Robert of Woodsende
West Kingdom

[robstout]

Good point. I see that making the horse hair much less dense.

[igelkott]

It's not the maximum that perturbs me, it's the slope of those curves.

Jerk.