The Armour Archive

Sir Patrick O'Malley wrote: 2” tips on spears are legal here and where both on the field at our war last weekend.

Are 2" tips banned in some places?

I was using one and I had a few not take some solid body shots, but that is pretty typical. No complaints.

"LATEST INFO ON POLYPRO WEAPON CONSTRUCTION AND USE...
t: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 5:31 AM
Subject: [EKMarshal] Polypropylene swords BANNED for use in the East Kingdom as of this notification

Greetings unto the fighters and populous of the East. Polypropylene swords are BANNED for use in the East Kingdom as of this notification.
I do not make this decision lightly, nor do I have any thought that it is the final word on the subject of alternate materials for the construction of combat weapons in the Society. I am open to experimental use of the 1.25” Polypropylene rod material for single-handed weapons during the next six month period, at which time I will review the results and reconsider my present decision. As a personal note, all who know me will attest that I am not one who fears change in general and I respect the opinions of others. I also am very open to considering the results of thoughtful and methodical experimentation. I have purchased and constructed a sword made of this material. We have begun the process of evaluating its safety and characteristic's. My early impression is that it hits harder, is quite “vibratory” , it seems to skip at less extreme angles than rattan. We are going to video some shots at high def to see if flex is similar to rattan. With a short(18” rod of the material, I (old and weak) was able to indent and crush the surface of pc.’s of hardwood, that a similar stave of rattan did not even mark. If you wish to comment or to begin an experimental program with the material, contact me directly for details. A condensed version of this will appear in Pikestaff and on my official East Kingdom web page as soon as possible. Additionally, I and my 2nd, the KEM of the Mid, are in agreement that these will also not be allowed on the field at Pennsic 41.
Yours in Service to the East, and serving at the pleasure of Their Majesties,
Sir Stephen Grandchamp"

FrauHirsch1 wrote:

Sir Patrick O'Malley wrote: 2” tips on spears are legal here and where both on the field at our war last weekend.

Are 2" tips banned in some places?

I was using one and I had a few not take some solid body shots, but that is pretty typical. No complaints.

banned in atenveldt

zippy wrote:

FrauHirsch1 wrote:

Sir Patrick O'Malley wrote: 2” tips on spears are legal here and where both on the field at our war last weekend.

Are 2" tips banned in some places?

I was using one and I had a few not take some solid body shots, but that is pretty typical. No complaints.

banned in atenveldt

Isn't that a rap song?

Why was it approved if just about every kingdom is going to ban it?

the polypro is cool here, we just want more specific info on the materials

i was saying 2in thrusting tips aren't legal on fiberglass spears in atenveldt

the underlying issue is that most kingdom rules state what a sword can be made of. if it says "rattan, or siloflex encased rattan" then poly swords are not legal. if these are allowed as expiremental then they can still be used until the language is changed. i know some will disagree and say "we have used them for years and they are legal" but that is simply untrue so long as their published rules specify what a weapon can be made of it that language does not include polypro specifically.

as to why things get approved (or outlawed or changed or whatever) on a society level....... well its because we allow one person to make that decision and we allow each kingdom to make decisions. both, in my opinion, are bad things. one game, one set of rules.

regards
logan

Christophe de Frisselle wrote:Why was it approved if just about every kingdom is going to ban it?

Bulby37 wrote:

zippy wrote:

FrauHirsch1 wrote:
banned in atenveldt

Isn't that a rap song?

I was thinking "Banned from Argo" by Leslie Fish myself...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH8lvwXx_Y8

-Tegan

For anyone interested in conducting tests on polypro swords, I strongly suggest conducting your tests side by side with a new piece of rattan of similar weight. Testing without a control will produce inaccurate data. If you are going to fight with it, have fighters you know use it against you. That way you have a frame of reference to evaluate the weapon.

Some years back we where testing a different material. It looked promising so we sent a sample to the SEM. He went out and pounded on some stuff with it, sent us a list of the damage it had don, and declared it unsafe. The next week we conducted the same test with a new piece of untapped rattan. The rattan did more damage. Thus we concluded that rattan was unsafe for weapon construction.

Patrick, Caid

Poly swords suck. Rattan is awesome.

Sir Mansur won my lady’s Queen’s Champion Tournament today using a polypropylene sword.

Patrick, Caid

I've been using mine for almost 2 years now and just had to replace the nylon web I run down the front and back edges to protect the 'blade'. This was the first time I've ever had the webbing fail before the 'blade' and am thrilled to be replacing it to use for another few years. And now I don't have to put red and green stripes on it... great!

Christophe de Frisselle wrote:... We'll have to wait till the published ruling to see what the approved material spec is, just like Siloflex and equivalents.

Any idea when this will be?

Balin50 wrote:Poly swords suck. Rattan is awesome.

As long as it lasts...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=149590

Thomas MacFinn wrote:

Christophe de Frisselle wrote:... We'll have to wait till the published ruling to see what the approved material spec is, just like Siloflex and equivalents.

Any idea when this will be?

Who knows if ever. The sword construction rule says "natural polypropylene" and in the Presidents Report today it says that low density polypropylene was the material approved.

"SOCIETY MARSHAL

The Board approved the addition of Low Density Polypropylene Rod to the list of acceptable materials for one handed weapons as presented by the Society Earl Marshal, effective immediately."

Specificity or consistency in terminology would be nice.

I was told product number 8658K56 at mcmaster.com

The 1.25" rod on this page:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-polyp ... ds/=i5ihqp

Did you ask for the MDS when you ordered or was there a sticker on the rod? Just wondering if is the same as the rod I got from McMaster-Carr almost two years ago. Yeah, that is the same part number.

They copolymer of my polypro rod is ProFax-7823 Manufactured by Basell USA, Inc.

Christophe de Frisselle wrote:

Thomas MacFinn wrote:

Christophe de Frisselle wrote:... We'll have to wait till the published ruling to see what the approved material spec is, just like Siloflex and equivalents.

Any idea when this will be?

Who knows if ever. The sword construction rule says "natural polypropylene" and in the Presidents Report today it says that low density polypropylene was the material approved.

Specificity or consistency in terminology would be nice.

From the McMaster Carr link: Translucent white is also known as natural polypropylene.

From that page:

Rods—Smooth Finish

Color: Opaque white
Temperature Range: 41° to 210° F
Softening Temperature: Not rated
Machine with carbide tooling

Meet UL 94HB for flammability. Rods 2 1/4" in diameter and larger are stress relieved.
Dia. Dia.
Tolerance Per Ft.
Sold in 1-ft. increments; max. length is
8 feet. To Order: Please specify length.
1" +0.040" 8658K55 3.54
1 1/4" +0.050" 8658K56 5.42
1 1/2" +0.060" 8658K57 7.76
1 3/4" +0.070" 8658K58 10.71
2" +0.080" 8658K59 12.12

Since the temperature range is 41° to 210° F, how would this stuff perform in Oertha during the winter?

- Scott

I was thinking about getting a stick of this for pell work. But sticking with rattan for fighting. I can't bring myself to be 100% confident in plastic banging against steel safely...The first time I had a break like Count Johnathan posted it would be my luck to blind my oponent as the smaller pieces flew through their bargrill.

... and UV resistance? Evidently, some forms of polypro break down in sunlight.

I've been away for a while. I'm way late to this conversation, and I'm not going to say anything I haven't said before in other threads on this.

The poly sword I use is the same one from this video. Note the date for upload: March of 2010. More than two years ago. It is the same one I have posted pics of elsewhere in this forum.

I still use that very same rod as my regular practice sword. We have completely beaten the tape off the leading edge of the rod. Twice.

The grip tape Amos put on it is wearing away.

The rod itself still shows NO wear.

I have used it as the regular newbie loaner sword at my practice. It is my regular practice sword. It has gotten a LOT of use. I have also used it, with mixed success, in tournament.

In my experience, polypro is denser than rattan, and slightly more flexible. That means a 1.25" rod of poly will be approximately as heavy as a 1.5" sword. But because it flexes more it will, on average, hit about the same as a 1.25" rattan sword. However, because it's heavier but more flexible, it doesn't hit the same as rattan.

Short stem shots near the handle hit harder. Because it's heavier.
Tip shots, or even those from above the sweet spot to the tip, hit lighter if you like swords over about 28". Because it flexes more.

The material is not, for that reason, competitive for people who like swords of a non-trimarian "Normal" length and ever throw outside blows. It should be wonderful for short swords and really great for daggers though.

The only issue most of us are having Corby is the lack of specification on the material. If the rod I had used had broken in the same manner that I saw in the video Amos had put up where he was smashing it against bricks and steel pipes and it basically tore instead of shattering I would have no issue. If I had that material and it broke as quickly as the one I had did I would say it's a waste of money but I wouldn't have an issue with it from a safety perspective. I may eventually pick up a piece from McMaster carr and give it another try but I would really like the SEM to give very specific info so that people don't use crappy quality, inappropriate and potentially hazardous sticks simply because the correct material was not specified. I think that if the right material were specified from the start most of the tests would have gone over better and we wouldn't see the current situation of many kingdoms disallowing it.

Edit: Just ordered a McMaster stick to check it out. I am not opposed to polypro I just want the right stuff.

Thomas MacFinn wrote:... and UV resistance? Evidently, some forms of polypro break down in sunlight.

Do you not plan on covering the material with opaque tape?

Also the rule update has been modified since I last saw it, including more specifics on rod size as well as locations.

OLD VERSION OF RULE:
B. Single-Handed Weapons: Weapons that shall be used in one hand shall have the following requirements:
1. Single handed weapons shall be constructed of rattan or rattan-cored Siloflex or Siloflex equivalent and shall be not less than 1 1⁄4 inch (31.8 mm) in total diameter (including tape) along its entire length excepting the handle.

NEW VERSION OF RULE:
B. Single-Handed Weapons: Weapons that shall be used in one hand shall have the following requirements:
1. Single handed weapons shall be constructed of one of the following:
•rattan
•rattan-cored Siloflex or Siloflex equivalent
•naural polypropylene round rod (max diameter: 1-1/4 inches (31.8mm))
and shall be not less than 1 1⁄4 inch (31.8 mm) in total diameter (including tape) along its entire length excepting the handle.
Here are two companies that carries the product:
http://www.iplasticsupply.com/shopping- ... ne-pp-rod/
www.mcmaster.com/#standard-polypropylene-rods/=hk5bze

Or do a web search for plastic vendors in your area – some will carry it in stock.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

benz72 wrote:

Thomas MacFinn wrote:... and UV resistance? Evidently, some forms of polypro break down in sunlight.

Do you not plan on covering the material with opaque tape?

I was thinking of merchant booths.

Ogedei, the marshal's handbook also states:

2. Rattan-cored Siloflex or Siloflex equivalent weapons shall be constructed using tubular materials meeting ASTM standard D-2239 or the international equivalent, with a pressure rating of 160 PSI or greater, having at least a 1 1⁄4 inch (31.8 mm) diameter on the outside and at least 1/8 inch (3.2 mm) walls, and having an inner core of rattan that fills the interior of the tubular material entirely. Periodic inspection shall be made to determine the condition of the inner core.

I haven't seen any similar specifications for polypro.

Your Majesty Patrick, Can you shape the handle with no problems? (I've never paid attention)

Do you tape it just like regular rattan?

Sir Corby, when you say 28" for a sword, are you referring to overall length or blade length?

The handle shapes like butter.

Thomas MacFinn wrote:... and UV resistance? Evidently, some forms of polypro break down in sunlight.

As per the rules, the sword must be covered in fibreglass strapping tape and duct tape. If UV light is getting through that, you are too close to the sun.

Scott wrote:From that page:

Rods—Smooth Finish

Color: Opaque white
Temperature Range: 41° to 210° F
Softening Temperature: Not rated
Machine with carbide tooling

Meet UL 94HB for flammability. Rods 2 1/4" in diameter and larger are stress relieved.
Dia. Dia.
Tolerance Per Ft.
Sold in 1-ft. increments; max. length is
8 feet. To Order: Please specify length.
1" +0.040" 8658K55 3.54
1 1/4" +0.050" 8658K56 5.42
1 1/2" +0.060" 8658K57 7.76
1 3/4" +0.070" 8658K58 10.71
2" +0.080" 8658K59 12.12

Since the temperature range is 41° to 210° F, how would this stuff perform in Oertha during the winter?

- Scott

Works fine here in the far North of NY. We get colder on average than Oertha. Then again we tend to fight inside when it gets near freezing. As for it getting too hard from sitting out in a vehicle, rattan does the same. Nothing like getting hit with a frozen polearm.

AedanMac wrote:I was thinking about getting a stick of this for pell work. But sticking with rattan for fighting. I can't bring myself to be 100% confident in plastic banging against steel safely...The first time I had a break like Count Johnathan posted it would be my luck to blind my opponent as the smaller pieces flew through their bargrill.

That is the issue I have. All 100% polypro is called natural polypro. Polypro comes in many grades with properties varying with its polymer/copolymer makeup. As I stated in the other topic on polypro, what Count Johathan has and what I have are two different polypro grades and act differently. Which likely account for why some rods have broken and other are still going strong. Which make the polymer makeup important, in my mind.

Christophe de Frisselle wrote: That is the issue I have. All 100% polypro is called natural polypro. Polypro comes in many grades with properties varying with its polymer/copolymer makeup. As I stated in the other topic on polypro, what Count Johathan has and what I have are two different polypro grades and act differently. Which likely account for why some rods have broken and other are still going strong. Which make the polymer makeup important, in my mind.

I totally agree, the wording is not clear or specific. I know I am nitpicking, but there is too much leeway in the definition of 'polypro'.

As to the UV question, once we get the material more defined, why do we need it wrapped in tape? Allow a silver or grey color and done. The UV issue might make a big difference, especially out here in the sun baked lands.

I personally will stick to Rattan, the operating temps for the rod do not equate to our winter weather and we fight outdoors. In over 7 years of fighting I have only fought indoors at an event once. 41degrees F. on the low end is not low enough.

regards
ThorvaldR

Thorvaldr Skegglauss wrote:I personally will stick to Rattan, the operating temps for the rod do not equate to our winter weather and we fight outdoors. In over 7 years of fighting I have only fought indoors at an event once. 41degrees F. on the low end is not low enough.

regards
ThorvaldR

I left mine out in the snow for two weeks in temps in the teens and twenties. Actually it was out in van in the cold that whole winter. Fought with it every week, and had no issues whatsoever.