The Armour Archive

So for my second melee fighting event, I went to the Aethelmearc war practice this past weekend and had an exceptionally fun time.

During the melee's a few of the households used large rectangle type shields, which seemed fairly effective.

As I do need a melee shield, I am interested in finding out the type and size of the largest historically accurate footman's shields from the 6th century on within Europe that one would carry in hand to hand combat. My google-fu skills are failing on this and I'd love to find out at least a direction to start researching this

Marcus, can you be more specific about your persona?

I personally hate the large rectangular shields, or "war doors" as they are nicknamed where I live. They are just in the way 99% of the time, and not in a good way. I prefer a large teardrop shield, 36-40" in length and 24-26" wide.

But as Glaukos stated depends on your specific persona. There could be left over Roma Scutums left, some were rectangle curved center grips, or oval center grips.

I love when people use those. It turns them into prey.

We call 'em "war doors" too. Get them to the right size to fit you that you CAN fight with it.

Most common I see is 24"-28" wide and 38"-42" length....sometimes with a heater shape at the bottom to cut weight down.

Soft kit, I'm working on a later period Icelandic persona.

Hard kit will most likely not be related to this, so it's fairly open.

I'd like a melee and a separate tourney kit, but at the moment I have just put together my first full armor set that includes no loaner gear beyond a Barony shield.

Not really geared towards any period yet (or more accurately all over the place on period and locations), it includes:
chain shirt (covering zoombang and back protection), a large metal gorget (which covers collar bone and upper back), leather on the upper legs and metal knees with lames, leather splinted greaves, leather splinted vambraces with fluted elbow lames and finally a god awful ugly black open faced (grilled) bascinet.

Haven't found the single piece that I want to build my more permanent melee kit around and thought that might be the shield as step 1, hence Europe after the 6th century as part of the question

I second the use of a large kite. I have used our local "war doors" and, they make maneuver difficult as
the bottom corners impede leg movement. Currently, my House uses large kites, 24x38 and they are effective.
We like the rounded top as it is easier to sweep off a hooking pole weapon and the tapering bottom means we are still mobile.

The war doors work well IF (and that is a huge IF) they are being manned by a group that trains a lot together and can truly act as a unit. But I am yet to see people doing that so well that it would overcome the shortcomings for the individual operator of said shield. A very good shield wall can be made with heaters and rounds.

I use my big round for melee because it is persona authentic and because being round, it is less of a hindrance if I need to fight alone as opposed to part of a line. But I have fought melees with my heater and it seems like an excellent compromise of size and shape. Considering your persona, I would third a largish teardrop/kite as a war shield for you.

We call them "barn doors." Unless you are inn a unit that trains in the tactics they are suitable for (see, eg, Calontir shield wall), I would not bother going much beyond 24 x 36 (unless you go with a 48 in kite). It will just get in your way.

War Doors = easy prey

Anything over 24x30 is plenty big for war, I use a 24x32 for war and it's fine, and I'm a big guy. If you run out there with one of those big scutum or rectangular monstrosities, you are just asking to get murdered. You can't move, you can't fight, you can't help your team.

My main war shield is a variation of the war shield, but is made to be able to move, not get in the way, but still protective. Mine is 22x30. This allows me grat protection, but while running, I dont have to worry about the bottom of the shield getting hit and me having no option but to fall. With it only being 30" long, it allows my knees to keep churning thru lines and such.

As far as protection, it gives me good protection as well as being able to protect those on my left and right, plus with having the bottom corners it helps to keep the sneaky spears for shooting for the legs.

I love what I use, and works perfectly for what I do.

War doors are great... you will be a fantastic fighting platform after I kill you.

Seriously... get a shield that fits your persona. Train with it. That's a war shield.

This unit (Brendoken) earned the Dragon's Teeth that Pennsic using war doors. (shrug) I guess it depends on who's holding the shield.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fb ... =3&theater

That being said, I personally don't like 'em. I prefer a large heater or kite for myself.

Find a unit, train with them. All of you use the same shields, round, rectangular, oval, kite, whatever. Work together. Mixed shields is a recipe for disaster.

here are some medieval period ones: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2711

We use one like these curve bottomed kites - being slightly curved is important:

http://radikal.ru/F/i005.radikal.ru/090 ... 0.jpg.html
http://www.metmuseum.org/pubs/journals/ ... nnered.pdf

or the oval with a narrower bottom like B and C about 2' by 4': http://books.google.com/books?id=mzkv1C ... se&f=false

Regular tourney shields are spear bait.

Where I come from... they're one and the same.

FrauHirsch1 wrote: Regular tourney shields are spear bait.

We don't tend to bring large shields to the lysts in Caid.

Thanks for the advice everyone. Very cool to have experienced people to garner opinions and get some crowd sourced direction from.

I think I will be going the heater or the kite route.

I've solely used a (loaner 24 x 32) flat topped heater shield for the most part, any thoughts on that vs kite (angular topped) vs kite (looks like a reverse teardrop)?

Not to get too into the echo chamber here, but, yeah, "war doors" are not optimal shields in most situations. If you are in a unit that will be training together and can maintain some semblance of cohesion in a melee then they become significantly more viable. If properly supported they can also work well in a limited front situation (like a bridge or a gap in a wall), but their size (and generally their shape) makes it difficult for them to properly move, charge, and react to flanking so they are ill suited for most melee situations (where mobility is key).

That said, if you don't care about being killed more than you kill and just want to be an annoyance, there's nothing wrong with rocking the freakishly large shield. Just understand that you will die a whole lot unless you have a unit with which you are operating. After all, quantity has a quality all on its own.

Edit: Didn't see your response before putting this up so it's kind of redundant now.

There are two basic philosophies. One is to use your tourney shield since that is what you are used to. This works very well in the East and Atlantia because the typical tourney shield is of a proper length for static war fighting. Shorter shields (<36") can be quite tricky to face off against a wall of spears. They are still useful for running polearms down however... so it might depend on your battle role (more static infantry vs. cavalry).

The other thought - predominant in CAID, West, Calontir and to some extent the Middle is to use a shield specifically designed for your battle role. Of course in the West and CAID there are lots of cowboys and cavalry units that use more typical shields.

So on to big war shields. There are basically three types.
First type are those (dumb) war doors - up to 3' x 4' side strapped, groundable. These are only useful
a) enmass
b) in a static engagement
They do have the advantage in that they are more or less equally "useful" with green and experienced troops. Basically they are speed bumps. Given some time, a set of poles/spears or shield men who can swing/stab/hook will kill them all - ESSENTIALLY WITHOUT LOSS.

What this means, tactically, is that they are really only useful when time/space is more important than numbers.

The second type of war shield was pioneered in CAID, and moved to the West and later Atenveldt. These are large shields (I think mine is 30+" x 42") but they are functional on defense as well. They are usually centergripped rectangular ovals or rectangles, modeled after roman scuta.

For a static engagement - they are not particularly useful unless you have numbers. There are methods to "lock" them together to make them harder to hook and press (the general weakness of a centergrip). The sword - usually a short club is used to defend the head while the shields (this is important) come all the way down to rest on the knee, while the top covers the lower face. Sir Evyandr here in the West actually put a little leather "shelf" on his leg armor to rest his scutum. But now he's a cool viking and doesn't fight with them anymore. Now while this is a really good static defense it still is just a slow death against a spear wall if it doesn't attack - but the mobility and power of the large center grip allows good pulse charges with offensive capability.

When pulse or column charging - the big centergrip is a secondary weapon. You cannot strike a body, but you can strike a shield or weapon and knock people back, off balance, or even to the ground. And they were developed in a land where "live" bodies on the ground can be declared dead by a simple weapon touch and verbal call. These shields, conversely, are also extremely good at RESISTING charges and shield bashes, because you can punch out straight without opening your body too much.

The last type is not much different from a larger "tourney" shield. These are kites or skinny ovals or heaters. They have enough passive defense to survive for a type against spears but cannot typically hold ground (as well as bigger shields) in a tight formation (legs are open). In general I don't like kite style skinny tailed shields in war because you have to have really good tail discipline.

Obviously this also depends on the actual user. There are great fighters who can stand in a shield wall with an oversized buckler and dynamically block everything.

the snowplow Duke Bytor gave me is the same style as used by House Asgard. it's terrific for...well...plowing.



the angle gives it a lot of usability that a flat shield just doesn't have. For one thing, you can throw it on the ground and lay down on it as a backrest.

different view angle-



And, according to Bytor, they're even period.

Blackbow

Cedric the Tall wrote:War Doors = easy prey

Anything over 24x30 is plenty big for war, I use a 24x32 for war and it's fine, and I'm a big guy. If you run out there with one of those big scutum or rectangular monstrosities, you are just asking to get murdered. You can't move, you can't fight, you can't help your team.

Does this mean all of Ansteorra is easy prey? Seems like that's all they use.

Learn something new.... I just found out that I am 'easy prey' and will make a great platform once I am killed.

Seriously folks, there is a lot of misinformation going around here. IIRC my 'war heater' is 24" x 42" (not exactly sure of the length...) I have absolutely no issues running flanks, running through the woods, or holding a line on a bridge. And I am not the only one.
.
I agree that there is a limit, though I think width will be more problematic than length. (no further comment...) Personally I look for the tip of the heater to be just about at my knee, and the top about chin level. (At least in my mind... I will need to check with my shield to be sure.) The idea is to have my legs covered so I don't need to worry about them. I prefer the heater shape instead of a scutum because I find the bottom corners get in my way. But I know plenty of folks using the scutums just fine. Again, if you are using a 28" x 48" flat board... you may have some troubles; but there is no way I could do what I do on a melee field with a 32" shield. And I can't think of anything I could do with the 32" shield that I can't do with my 42" shield.

I have also found that it makes a pretty big difference to get the shield curved. Flat ones are just easier to pivot and to hook.

Long ago, I was in a melee unit that had different shields for different battles. We had large heaters (24" x 40") for field battles. This is a large enough shield to provide good passive protection but not impede movement. We had Scuta for bridge battles. The scuta were probably 24" x 48". They were too heavy to use in the field but quite good as movable walls on a bridge. Tools for the task.

For those claiming a war door makes you easy prey - stuff and nonsense! Maybe that's true on the mobile flanks of a field battle, but most of our melees are static lines - bridges, gates, ravine (at Gulf Wars), streets in a town battle, etc. Small shields in these battles make you easy prey for spearmen (especially when they fight in pairs). A 2'x4' curved shield is ideal for the static line. Now if you're planning on being a mobile unit in a field battle, bring something smaller that will let you run, let you see, and not limit your shot options.

Caedmon

For those claiming a war door makes you easy prey - stuff and nonsense! Maybe that's true on the mobile flanks of a field battle, but most of our melees are static lines - bridges, gates, ravine (at Gulf Wars), streets in a town battle, etc. Small shields in these battles make you easy prey for spearmen (especially when they fight in pairs). A 2'x4' curved shield is ideal for the static line. Now if you're planning on being a mobile unit in a field battle, bring something smaller that will let you run, let you see, and not limit your shot options.

Caedmon

People who pick up a war door they do not train with and expect it to make them invulnerable are easy prey. People who train with them and know their strengths and weaknesses are not.

"People who pick up a war door they do not train with and expect it to make them invulnerable are easy prey."

This


It's like anything else, if you work at it you can be effective with it. I use the same size shield pretty much all the time.
If you pick up something you don't use regularly your probably not gonna be good with it.

Well of course. That is like saying "Fighting with a spear makes you easy Prey" Assuming you have no idea how to fight with a spear.

If you are used to using a shield, there is very little learning curve to using a larger one. I really can't see someone going from a 36" heater to a 42" heater and doing 'worse'. (Let along going from a 32" heater to a 42" heater; like I do.)

Sjolander wrote:

Cedric the Tall wrote:War Doors = easy prey

Anything over 24x30 is plenty big for war, I use a 24x32 for war and it's fine, and I'm a big guy. If you run out there with one of those big scutum or rectangular monstrosities, you are just asking to get murdered. You can't move, you can't fight, you can't help your team.

Does this mean all of Ansteorra is easy prey? Seems like that's all they use.

People love their rectangles around here.

blackbow wrote:the snowplow Duke Bytor gave me is the same style as used by House Asgard. it's terrific for...well...plowing.



Blackbow

It also helps if you are 11'-4" tall and hit with the mass of a MAC truck. Good god man you are a giant!!!

It's funny... I'm tall, but I don't feel that much bigger than anybody around me. Half-Troll was in Calontir that year and he ran into us several times. He's taller and I'm sure he's heavier. The only difference I know of is that I hit and keep pushing and resettling my feet and pushing from that new point as opposed to hitting and stopping the way so many charging people do. There are lots of people heavier out there; I'm only #270.

I will admit I can still move fairly quickly in a straight line though.

Blackbow

Marked Difference wrote:

blackbow wrote:the snowplow Duke Bytor gave me is the same style as used by House Asgard. it's terrific for...well...plowing.



Blackbow

It also helps if you are 11'-4" tall and hit with the mass of a MAC truck. Good god man you are a giant!!!