The Armour Archive

losthelm wrote:Hopefully the larger diameter weapons can be classified as experiential or something.

The flat sided rattan swords and pole arms add a certain aesthetic.

Strictly speaking a shaved 2.25" pole isn't 2"D. It would weigh significantly less- and I doubt there would be much noticeable difference in rigidity.

I hope guys don't try to game the rules on this one, that just tends to make the marshals dig in on a question. Give it some time, it will sort out.

Baron Eirik wrote:I hope guys don't try to game the rules on this one, that just tends to make the marshals dig in on a question. Give it some time, it will sort out.

The problem there is the rule as written doesn't answer the basic question is that 2" before or after you trim to shape, if there are 2 reasonable ways to read it then it's not a rule being gamed it's an unclear rule.

Not that I have a dog in that race living in D'wald but a little clarity now might save a lot of hurt feelings later.

B

Bastior wrote:The problem there is the rule as written doesn't answer the basic question is that 2" before or after you trim to shape, if there are 2 reasonable ways to read it then it's not a rule being gamed it's an unclear rule.

That's because, as an organization, we have a long and colorful history of sucking at rule-writing

Baron Eirik wrote:

Bastior wrote:The problem there is the rule as written doesn't answer the basic question is that 2" before or after you trim to shape, if there are 2 reasonable ways to read it then it's not a rule being gamed it's an unclear rule.

That's because, as an organization, we have a long and colorful history of sucking at rule-writing

Don't think of it as sucky rule writing, think of it as rules favoring clever people. "Evil but legal" is, after all, legal.

Deleted

Because it involves SCA fighting. And that's good that you prefer 1.25" rattan. Probably makes it easier to get the rattan you want. Some of us though, prefer thicker rattan. And we prefer not to be restricted in that simply because people are taking hard shots (which is already covered with the "excessive force" rule).

It is on the Archive because I put it here. I did that because I know there are people here who do NOT Facebook, and as of yet, it is not on the Meridies marshal page. There are people here who play in the Kingdom, as well as people who sell rattan to people in that Kingdom This is a place to discuss Medieval Combat and Weapons... therefore an appropriate forum for the discussion of this topic. Thank you for adding your input. Thank you also to all the other folks who have added their equally valid input.
I have been using 2" rattan to make weapons for a long time... over ten years. I have had zero problems. While I generally do not play in their Kingdom, legislation against something I use is germane to my interests even in another Kingdom, as it can be the start of a domino effect.

Jacques wrote:i might be over stepping some. but, why does there rule change have people up set. do you play in there kingdom? do you plan to go to there kingdom? do they host any wars that this rule will have any baring on you? i am just as happy using 1.25 rattan and use weapon form to make my weapon. if i need a 3 inch rattan weapon to get ppl to call it, then that is the problem. in my veiw if you need 3 inch to make the shape you want then you can do that with weapon foam.

i do play in Meridies alot. i enjoy there event. i have to agree with Sir William.

what why is this even on AA?

The only problem I have with it has been covered by some people prior to me. Shaved weapons, Solid rattan maces, and carved swords. It looks better to see those on the field to me, than the round 1.25" whip sticks that are flung around like over zealous larpers.

I actually backed down the size of my primary weapon rattan because they were too heavy in comparison to the steel versions of them. Looks better, but...

Also, I can't really use bigger rattan with the By My Hand hilts.

The problem there is the rule as written doesn't answer the basic question is that 2" before or after you trim to shape, if there are 2 reasonable ways to read it then it's not a rule being gamed it's an unclear rule.

Here is what was posted on the Kingdom facebook page:

"No rattan used in the construction of a weapon will have a diameter greater than 2 inches (50.8mm) at its widest, unless the striking surface has at least 1/2 inch (12.7mm) progressive give"

This is in response to injuries received from "big rattan" weapons on the fighting field. You already have 2" gauges on your marshal's tools. Use them to measure rattan diameter as well as thrusting tip size.

So it seems pretty clear to me - your finished sword must pass through the 2" gauge. No part of the sword blade may be wider than 2".

Steve

Actually, if you wanted to really pick nits, that's not true. If the rattan used in construction was ever larger than 2" it is illegal without padding. I don't believe that's their intent, nor that they will try to enforce the rule that way, but that's how it reads.

Sir William Thomas is exactly right. Meridies is a kingdom of folks who really know how to have a fun time, both on the field of battle and off.

I began my SCA career in this kingdom, and to the gentle who opined that warriors of Meridies tend to be whiney pussies, I invite you to come try me, and see if you still feel the same Or I could introduce you to any number of ass-destroying Meridian warriors like Jarl Ailheanon or Duke Max

Despite rumors, a lot of us here in Atlantia have great relations and lots of friends in Meridies, and we come down to visit at their war events. When we do, we adjust to local fighting conventions and calibration.

Pretty much no one brings out monster-sized sticks of rattan when visiting an event in Meridies, so I don't see this rule as really having that much of an effect, save for causing Butthurt On the Internet, which is more of a cause for mirth than panic

Actually, if you wanted to really pick nits, that's not true. If the rattan used in construction was ever larger than 2" it is illegal without padding. I don't believe that's their intent, nor that they will try to enforce the rule that way, but that's how it reads.

I see what you are saying, but there is absolutely no way to determine the original thickness of a shaved piece of rattan.

It could have started out as a tree trunk.

Steve

Steve -SoFC- wrote:

Actually, if you wanted to really pick nits, that's not true. If the rattan used in construction was ever larger than 2" it is illegal without padding. I don't believe that's their intent, nor that they will try to enforce the rule that way, but that's how it reads.

I see what you are saying, but there is absolutely no way to determine the original thickness of a shaved piece of rattan.

It could have started out as a tree trunk.

Steve

Christ, don't say that, they'll probably just go ahead and ban shaved rattan to be sure.

Hey I use to have rattan old enough to shave. But I pass it on to friends who were playing.

Another quote from Facebook:

Rodrigo de Fornalutx wrote: What about weapons that are shaved to look like a blade-- they may be 2" across the flat but considerably narrower along the edge? I'm thinking of a could of shaped greatwords I've seen.

Sean Reisz wrote:Rodrigo:

The rule is 2 inches "at its widest."

Valdimar

Said ibn-Ali, I'm pretty sure I do not fight like an over zealous larper... Wanna find out?...


Thor.

Said ibn-Ali wrote:The only problem I have with it has been covered by some people prior to me. Shaved weapons, Solid rattan maces, and carved swords. It looks better to see those on the field to me, than the round 1.25" whip sticks that are flung around like over zealous larpers.

I have a piece of 36" long 2 3/4 rattan for single combat... It has ZERO flex, hits as hard or harder than a baseball bat. I do not use it to fight, it's never been on the field only pell a few times.. It knocks over a full wave master XXXL flat... Most (NOT ALL) but most of the fighters I see using thick rattan are doing so to make up for a lack of skill to throw a telling blow with normal rattan... This is over compensation for a lack of training/bad training. Most (again not all) of these guys could NOT kill themselves with their own power shots... This is not kingdom specific either... This is a problem in the SCA and should be addressed.

Thor.

Now lastly,

If you have a problem with Meridies, how Meridies handles their own kingdom, how they fight, what colors they wear, whatever... Go to their events and tell them face to face! Be a fucking man... do not hide behind a keyboard and talk shit. It's childish at best, Words feed trolls, deeds make hero's or something like that. This is not really person specific either.... Just damn tired of the bashing of my friends... good men and women... Who most likely have never been anything but nice to those bashing them...

Thor.

Thorstenn wrote:Said ibn-Ali, I'm pretty sure I do not fight like an over zealous larper... Wanna find out?...


Thor.

Said ibn-Ali wrote:The only problem I have with it has been covered by some people prior to me. Shaved weapons, Solid rattan maces, and carved swords. It looks better to see those on the field to me, than the round 1.25" whip sticks that are flung around like over zealous larpers.

If thats all you want to read that far into that statement then thats your choice. But it is not the intent of that statement. And I would be MORE than glad to cross sticks with you someday, I am always looking to play with new people.

I typically use around 1.5" rattan to make my swords; since I like a longer stick anything bigger than that starts to feel unwieldy.

What would be some of the advantages of using the big 2" rattan? Am I missing out on something sweet here?

Thorstenn wrote:Now lastly,

If you have a problem with Meridies, how Meridies handles their own kingdom, how they fight, what colors they wear, whatever... Go to their events and tell them face to face! Be a fucking man... do not hide behind a keyboard and talk shit. It's childish at best, Words feed trolls, deeds make hero's or something like that. This is not really person specific either.... Just damn tired of the bashing of my friends... good men and women... Who most likely have never been anything but nice to those bashing them...

Thor.

With one exception, I haven't seen anyone in this thread bashing anyone, but how's that keyboard treating you, Your Grace?

Thorstenn wrote:Most (NOT ALL) but most of the fighters I see using thick rattan are doing so to make up for a lack of skill to throw a telling blow with normal rattan... This is over compensation for a lack of training/bad training. Most (again not all) of these guys could NOT kill themselves with their own power shots... This is not kingdom specific either... This is a problem in the SCA and should be addressed.

Thor.

I do not believe your assesment to be accurate. Please conaisder that, as it is delivered force we are looking for, any combination of speed & mass that delivers it (within the weapon weight rules) is valid. Many people prefer fast, light wepons to accomplish that goal, but it is not the only solution to the problem.

While there cartainly are people who fall into the category you describe I have found them to be 1) in the vast minority and 2) on their way to improving their form, as are the most of us. Your local conditions may be an anomoly.

Have a good day

Roland Wodeman wrote:I typically use around 1.5" rattan to make my swords; since I like a longer stick anything bigger than that starts to feel unwieldy.

What would be some of the advantages of using the big 2" rattan? Am I missing out on something sweet here?

There are a number of advantages, among them;

Shaved ratan has a flatter profile that helps determine edge by shape rather than only by marking

Shave ratan has a better aesthetic (to many people)

Shaved ratan has reduced mode 1 flexure and widening 'sweet spot' strikning positions

Shaved ratan requires less followthrough to deliver power, but, by being heavier overal, requires more sustained energy to wield. (think peak to average power ratio reduction)

Shaved ratan allows tapering which shifts center of balance toward the hand, improving handling

If the weapon is heavy enough, it can be used to more eaily blow through insufficenent parries and land blows which should be accepted because they land with sufficient force.

On the downside, it is generally more expensive, required time and tools to shape, handles differently (necessitating the wielder understand and calibrate to what he is using), is subject to failure at stress risers at the hilt if it is carves improperly and may not be allowed in certain kingdoms.

benz72, that was an excellent summation. Well done, sir.

benz72 wrote:

Roland Wodeman wrote:I typically use around 1.5" rattan to make my swords; since I like a longer stick anything bigger than that starts to feel unwieldy.

What would be some of the advantages of using the big 2" rattan? Am I missing out on something sweet here?

There are a number of advantages, among them;

Shaved ratan has a flatter profile that helps determine edge by shape rather than only by marking

Shave ratan has a better aesthetic (to many people)

Shaved ratan has reduced mode 1 flexure and widening 'sweet spot' strikning positions

Shaved ratan requires less followthrough to deliver power, but, by being heavier overal, requires more sustained energy to wield. (think peak to average power ratio reduction)

Shaved ratan allows tapering which shifts center of balance toward the hand, improving handling

If the weapon is heavy enough, it can be used to more eaily blow through insufficenent parries and land blows which should be accepted because they land with sufficient force.

On the downside, it is generally more expensive, required time and tools to shape, handles differently (necessitating the wielder understand and calibrate to what he is using), is subject to failure at stress risers at the hilt if it is carves improperly and may not be allowed in certain kingdoms.

+1.

The best swords I ever had were shaved rattan and I've got a nice piece of 2 in. rattan in the garage that is going to be either a 48 in. long sword or a 40 in. cross hilted broad sword. Until then, i will continue using my 1 1/2 in. rattan stick, which hits perfectly hard enough, than you.

And come to think of it, the new rule in Meridies doesn't affect me because (1) I live in the stellar kingdom of Ansteorra, and (2) I don't even OWN any 2 in. rattan.

And there is no commie flag tacked up on the wall inside my garage, either!

benz72 wrote:

Thorstenn wrote:Most (NOT ALL) but most of the fighters I see using thick rattan are doing so to make up for a lack of skill to throw a telling blow with normal rattan... This is over compensation for a lack of training/bad training. Most (again not all) of these guys could NOT kill themselves with their own power shots... This is not kingdom specific either... This is a problem in the SCA and should be addressed.

Thor.

I do not believe your assesment to be accurate. Please conaisder that, as it is delivered force we are looking for, any combination of speed & mass that delivers it (within the weapon weight rules) is valid. Many people prefer fast, light wepons to accomplish that goal, but it is not the only solution to the problem.

While there cartainly are people who fall into the category you describe I have found them to be 1) in the vast minority and 2) on their way to improving their form, as are the most of us. Your local conditions may be an anomoly.

Have a good day

I am oftentimes surprised at the number of videos posted here on the Archive of people with bad technique. People throwing shots with nothing but arm (and shoulders) with no hip movement. Certainly there are other ways to generate power than with hip movement (such as what Duke Logan teaches), but those techniques are not on display on the videos I am referring to.

So while I have never gauged the percentage of thick rattan users, I will agree with Duke Thorstenn about an overall lack of technique, which would make his point about the percentages make some sense. I could be wrong, but I think *that* is what he was referring to, as a heavier sword solves that problem and means the all-arm guys can now hit with greater power.

While this approach of heavier rattan does solve the immediate problem and enables those with lesser technique to win more fights in the short-term, it is my opinion that this hurts long term success in the sport. It usually makes shots slower, easier to read, and tires you out much faster. It also increases the likelihood of injury.

As a good friend oftentimes says, "Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent." This is similar to a Vince Lombardi quote, "Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect." What these illustrate is that by teaching your muscles to use "lesser" technique, you are installing something in your muscle memory that is very hard to fix later. This means the all-arm guys will always need to use thicker rattan to generate sufficient power.

Plain and simple, it is harder to generate power from thinner rattan. For power generation, the speed increases you gain from thinner rattan DO NOT overcome the mass and flex of thicker rattan. Thicker rattan hits harder than thinner. Always.

That all said, I have no problems with anyone fighting with any thickness of rattan against me. If I get hit enough in places I don't want to, I'll learn to block better.

Edited to correctly attribute a quote to Vince Lombardi.

One exception in one thread. you must have missed all of the others that seem to pop up every month or so in other threads or you ignore the hell out of it.. And I don't hide son... I fight.... a lot... See me at GW and I'll show you.

Thor-

Ingvarr wrote:

Thorstenn wrote:Now lastly,

If you have a problem with Meridies, how Meridies handles their own kingdom, how they fight, what colors they wear, whatever... Go to their events and tell them face to face! Be a fucking man... do not hide behind a keyboard and talk shit. It's childish at best, Words feed trolls, deeds make hero's or something like that. This is not really person specific either.... Just damn tired of the bashing of my friends... good men and women... Who most likely have never been anything but nice to those bashing them...

Thor.

With one exception, I haven't seen anyone in this thread bashing anyone, but how's that keyboard treating you, Your Grace?

Jestyr -

"Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent." isn't a Zen Quote.

It's Vince Lombardi.


.

leekellerking wrote:The best swords I ever had were shaved rattan and I've got a nice piece of 2 in. rattan in the garage that is going to be either a 48 in. long sword or a 40 in. cross hilted broad sword. Until then, i will continue using my 1 1/2 in. rattan stick, which hits perfectly hard enough, than you.

And come to think of it, the new rule in Meridies doesn't affect me because (1) I live in the stellar kingdom of Ansteorra, and (2) I don't even OWN any 2 in. rattan.

And there is no commie flag tacked up on the wall inside my garage, either!

Boating accidents happen to rattan as well as guns?

This stems from a incident that happened at Gulf Wars although some in Meridies didn't care for larger rattan previously. Meridies feels it doesn't flex and is unsafe. . People aren't using rattan larger than 2" as tourney sticks they are using it as seal clubs and to make 2 handed weapons with it. Most of these big boom sticks are being used in wars were people want to hit with authority. It's Meridies right to outlaw it in their kingdom but as it stands most kingdoms are o.k. with larger diameter rattan.

My Personal thoughts are that any weapon on the field can be dangerous if people don't exercise control with it. There are people at wars that exercise no control and just try to hurt the other person. Making a 7.5' Pole weapon out of 2" rattan is potentially more dangerous than a 4' long 2.75" diameter piece of rattan that has been planed down to 1.25" x 2.75". The complaint is about the flex although I find things that have more flex tend to hit pretty hard because they whip. Just my 2cents.

Diglach Mac Cein wrote:Jestyr -
It's Vince Lombardi.

Interesting. I have incorrectly attributed that for years. Thanks!

(I edited my original post to fix my error.)

Living about 30 miles from the border of Meridies, I go over to play occasionally. I've just got a meridies sword. The rattan is 36"s long, 1.25" thick, light as hell, baldar cuphilt, and a thrusty.

When in Rome...

A question here.

Let's say I have a piece of 2¼" rattan. I shave it down to a carved boarspear (thickness 1½", blade width 1¾" and lugs 2").

Would this be illegal in Meridies? If the lugs were 1¾"?

Will this affect split rattan construction?