The Armour Archive

jester wrote:I'm not a fan of the madu. But why the hell was it necessary to rain on someone else's parade in this fashion? Don't like madus? Run an event at which madus are not allowed. Or are we not allowed to do that because it would be excluding people? Banning something at the Society level, for what amounts to personal reasons or regional prejudices, just reduces the scope of the game for everyone.

The "excluding people" is based on personna, etc, not tournament combat. You can have a S&S tournament, and exclude all other weapons, including madus.

I was coming here to say the same thing. EK Marshals list reports that the wrong file was uploaded. Madu's are not singled out.

Sean

I hate em....

not as much as CA...but I do hate them.

Now the up side is killing the guys using them....but really sick of them being an excuse to basket punch people. and have the "it got hung up" as an excuse

I still think it would be neat to roll out a brace of hwachas. Documented, in the time period, and would be a CA amusement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQhSXA3AKh4#t=83

And...hard to block with a madu.

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:

jester wrote:I'm not a fan of the madu. But why the hell was it necessary to rain on someone else's parade in this fashion? Don't like madus? Run an event at which madus are not allowed. Or are we not allowed to do that because it would be excluding people? Banning something at the Society level, for what amounts to personal reasons or regional prejudices, just reduces the scope of the game for everyone.

The "excluding people" is based on personna, etc, not tournament combat. You can have a S&S tournament, and exclude all other weapons, including madus.

You can absolutely exclude people based on persona or garb. It's just seldom done.

There is absolutely NOTHING stopping an autocrat from walking up to a bunch of harr pyrates and going "Change or GTFO".. but nobody ever will.

Wander around as a 16th C dutch slaver for a while, see how long you last till you get told to change your persona.

What, do you have a problem with the Dutch?

Many. They are freaky deaky.

Personally, I would suggest that the Board has NOT decided to take away anybody's Madu, and that there appears to have been a wrong version sent to be published on the website somewhere along the document transfer chain.

The matter is being discussed at the moment and the most effective solution to resolving the improperly posted version addressed, given corporate governance and publications policy issues.

The SCA is (slowly) moving towards a sharepoint document management system so that we might minimize these types of problems in the future (remember this handbook was over 2 years in the process of rewriting with countless versions happening just in the past 6 months).

Apologies for any consternation this might have caused Maduvians and those who support them.

Max Von Halstern
(Max Nelson)

Steve -SoFC- wrote:

If so, that definitely was a) a weapon b) used before 1600, and would thus be in our period. Unless anything not from medieval Europe is "not period", in which case there isn't much point in you answering this question.

"The SCA is an international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating the arts and skills of pre-17th-century Europe. Our "Known World" consists of 19 kingdoms, with over 30,000 members residing in countries around the world. Members, dressed in clothing of the Middle Ages and Renaissance, attend events which feature tournaments, royal courts, feasts, dancing, various classes & workshops, and more."

Steve

Soooooo all Eastern persona(e) are out? No 16th cent Samurai? No 9th cent Rus?

Fine, but enforce it ALL, not just the parts that aren't popular. I'm no fan of Madus but our standards are schizophrenic.

Don't even get me started on the "Pre- 17th Century" There is no significant difference between 1580 and 1630 in warfare or culture. You would need to roll back to at least pre 1520 to get away from the influence firearms had.

I hope that the effort of two years yields a more concise, better organized set of rules then the version posted. As I posted on the "Unofficial SEM" Facebook page, the Marshallate handbook has been a hodge podge of rules, badly laid out as a holdover from at least 1988, possibly earlier.

I don't see how hard it is to just say, oops! Wrong version posted on the Interwebs, our bad. Here is the right one! In any well organized company, a misposting should be fairly easy to handle. If the publications policy doesn't allow for common sense, the policy needs to be looked at. Besides, looking at the way the BOD seems to view "policies", it's only a policy, and therefore doesn't actually need to be followed...

I'm not a madu-lover, I could care less. I would just like to be able to half-sword a 46" bastard sword and pommel strike people...

Roland Ansbacher wrote:I hope that the effort of two years yields a more concise, better organized set of rules then the version posted. As I posted on the "Unofficial SEM" Facebook page, the Marshallate handbook has been a hodge podge of rules, badly laid out as a holdover from at least 1988, possibly earlier.

I don't see how hard it is to just say, oops! Wrong version posted on the Interwebs, our bad. Here is the right one! In any well organized company, a misposting should be fairly easy to handle. If the publications policy doesn't allow for common sense, the policy needs to be looked at. Besides, looking at the way the BOD seems to view "policies", it's only a policy, and therefore doesn't actually need to be followed...

I'm not a madu-lover, I could care less. I would just like to be able to half-sword a 46" bastard sword and pommel strike people...

Having Run the Period Combat Committee Under Robert of Auk's tenure as SEM and coming back with the the idea that Half Swording and Pommel Strikes could be done safe with a minimum of changes and to start off in a smaller more controlled environment such as 1 on 1 tournaments. I was all for trying out Half-Sword and Pommel Strikes. Think we were looking at 60" Swords and not shorter swords such as 46" but it was a start. But in the end it wasn't my decision, I just felt it could be done safely.

Rey

We used them all the time in Atenveldt, in both tournament and war fields. It was my weapon of choice for years! I dont even know why there needed to be an experiment for it. I caused many more injuries with a 6 ft. Great sword then I ever did with a bastard. Part of the reason I stopped using them. When called on it (twice) I just called it a bsr mace...

Then again, I'm from Atenveldt, where we are a little more flexible with the rules.

CTrumbore wrote:

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:

jester wrote:I'm not a fan of the madu. But why the hell was it necessary to rain on someone else's parade in this fashion? Don't like madus? Run an event at which madus are not allowed. Or are we not allowed to do that because it would be excluding people? Banning something at the Society level, for what amounts to personal reasons or regional prejudices, just reduces the scope of the game for everyone.

The "excluding people" is based on personna, etc, not tournament combat. You can have a S&S tournament, and exclude all other weapons, including madus.

You can absolutely exclude people based on persona or garb. It's just seldom done.

There is absolutely NOTHING stopping an autocrat from walking up to a bunch of harr pyrates and going "Change or GTFO".. but nobody ever will.

Wander around as a 16th C dutch slaver for a while, see how long you last till you get told to change your persona.

So just out of curiosity what exactly would a 16th C Dutch Slaver wear? This is just for curiosity sake of course.

Murdock wrote:Sick of: getting slugged with the buckler/ basket in the middle by a guy who was "trying to face thrust' or "trying to tie up my weapon"
flicked in the shin and asked if it was good
touch flicked with the bottom spike pretty much anywhere and asked if it was good
hit with the hafts
punched in the face with the haft....right above the boss and yelled at that it was good. (it's not even a striking surface)
punched in the armpit with the boss and basket in close.


There are a few good madu fighters out there, Animal a few guys in the outlands.

Most guys suck and do the annoying aforementioned crap.
I hate madus...glad to see them go.

I fought with one (technically) for about 15 years. Never did any of what you just claimed. I *never* had a problem with people calling thrusts from it. Then again, I am in Meridies.

Update to Handbook (Nov 1, 2013): Remove item #16,under Weapon Standards, Section A.

VII. WEAPONS STANDARDS
A. General
16. Weapons under 48" (1.22 m) or greater than 7’ 6" (2.29 m) in length may have either a thrusting tip or a butt spike, but not both at the same time. The madu was not a weapon of individual combat during the SCA’s period of study, and therefore it is excluded.
1-piece Baldar blunts banned in Combat Archery

Source: http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/docs/


EDIT: It was just pointed out to me that this update allows single handed swords to have butt spikes and thrusting tips. That may be an oopsie.

Spears too.

I'm cool with that!

CTrumbore wrote:

Baron Alcyoneus wrote:

jester wrote:I'm not a fan of the madu. But why the hell was it necessary to rain on someone else's parade in this fashion? Don't like madus? Run an event at which madus are not allowed. Or are we not allowed to do that because it would be excluding people? Banning something at the Society level, for what amounts to personal reasons or regional prejudices, just reduces the scope of the game for everyone.

The "excluding people" is based on personna, etc, not tournament combat. You can have a S&S tournament, and exclude all other weapons, including madus.

You can absolutely exclude people based on persona or garb. It's just seldom done.

There is absolutely NOTHING stopping an autocrat from walking up to a bunch of harr pyrates and going "Change or GTFO".. but nobody ever will.

Wander around as a 16th C dutch slaver for a while, see how long you last till you get told to change your persona.

You can't require any specific garb for participation if it is within our rules. You can't require 15thC Dutch for participation at an event, you can have a themed event focused on 15thC Dutch, but you can't tell an 11thC Norman to change clothes or go home.


And a 16thC Dutch slaver would be dressed just like any other 16thC Dutchman- just with a few different fashion accessories. Slave auctions, IIRC, are prohibited.

maxntropy wrote:Personally, I would suggest that the Board has NOT decided to take away anybody's Madu, and that there appears to have been a wrong version sent to be published on the website somewhere along the document transfer chain.

The matter is being discussed at the moment and the most effective solution to resolving the improperly posted version addressed, given corporate governance and publications policy issues.

Max Von Halstern
(Max Nelson)

Oops, someone typed with their outside voice?

I see a bunch of 49" madus in the future.

http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/news.html

"November 2013:
Update to Handbook: Remove item #16,under Weapon Standards, Section A.

VII. WEAPONS STANDARDS
A. General
16. Weapons under 48" (1.22 m) or greater than 7' 6" (2.29 m) in length may have either a thrusting tip or a butt spike, but not both at the same time. The madu was not a weapon of individual combat during the SCA's period of study, and therefore it is excluded."

jester wrote:

Brennainn wrote:Jester, you could make a mint on Outlands madu t-shirts.

Not that I've noticed.

I'd buy one.

Haroun

Whew! So, I _still_ have time to prepare and fight Crown with Florentine Madus? Sweet!

And just what is wrong with 1988, sir?
Be careful, there are a lot of us relics from the 80's here!

Roland Ansbacher wrote:I hope that the effort of two years yields a more concise, better organized set of rules then the version posted. As I posted on the "Unofficial SEM" Facebook page, the Marshallate handbook has been a hodge podge of rules, badly laid out as a holdover from at least 1988, possibly earlier.

..

Sirharoun wrote:

jester wrote:

Brennainn wrote:Jester, you could make a mint on Outlands madu t-shirts.

Not that I've noticed.

I'd buy one.

Haroun

Well, the picture above links to the XXL version of the shirt. You'll probably want the non-ducal sized one here. Spreadshirt (and, to be honest, I) has never been satisfied with the larger version of the design; it's too pixelated or too... abstract. I'll take a look at it and see if I can get the larger design to work and post it to the site.

You know, I dislike madus as much as the next guy, but if we're actually going to start enforcing the "attempt at pre-17th century" rule, there are plenty of other things to go after first. How about zero visible plastic? That shit harshes my medieval mellow a lot more than people fighting with silly-sticks.

Balian du Bois-blanc wrote:You know, I dislike madus as much as the next guy, but if we're actually going to start enforcing the "attempt at pre-17th century" rule, there are plenty of other things to go after first. How about zero visible plastic? That shit harshes my medieval mellow a lot more than people fighting with silly-sticks.

No visible duct-tape? No tennis shoes? No combat boots? No road-sign shields.

asbrand wrote:

Balian du Bois-blanc wrote:You know, I dislike madus as much as the next guy, but if we're actually going to start enforcing the "attempt at pre-17th century" rule, there are plenty of other things to go after first. How about zero visible plastic? That shit harshes my medieval mellow a lot more than people fighting with silly-sticks.

No visible duct-tape? No tennis shoes? No combat boots? No road-sign shields.

Yes, yes, maybe, better damn well paint over them.

On that note, I just got new splinted vambraces and legs done, and they look mah-velous

Our local event has a HUGE list field. We typically make two tournamnet fields, and the other half is all pick-ups and teaching.

The last one was also Midrealm Coronation, and we implemented the following rules -

1) No modern day camps within 20' of the lists.
2) On the 2 tournaments fields, the following rules were enforced:
A) No visible duct tape, outside of what was required on weapons or emergency repairs.
B) No obvious and visible mundane materials (ie blue barrel plastic, road sign shields w/ visible logos)
C) No blatently modern footware
D) ANY modern logos must be hidden (Hockey gloves, etc).
E) No "stick/stave" polearms. All polearms had to have an obvious weapon head with a reasonable period shape.

ZERO complaints registered to the MiC, everyone knew the rules in advance, and most met them.

We are planning on using these rules every year.

Soooooo all Eastern persona(e) are out? No 16th cent Samurai? No 9th cent Rus?

I'm just pointing out what it says on the home page of the organization. We can argue about how legitimate the statement is or how well it is actually enforced but my point was to give insight into what the organization is philosophically about, or at least, where it came from.

The governing documents a bit more enlightening:

http://www.sca.org/docs/pdf/govdocs.pdf

"A BRIEF INTRODUCTION
TO THE SOCIETY FOR CREATIVE ANACHRONISM
The Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc. (SCA, Society is a 501(c)3 Educational Not-for-Profit organization devoted to the study of the Middle Ages and Renaissance. Most of its activities take place in the context of a social structure adapted from the forms of the European Middle Ages, which allows participants to take a first-hand look at various aspects of the life, culture and technology of the times under study.

As a living history group, the Society provides an environment in which members can recreate various aspects of the culture and technology of the period, as well as doing more traditional historical research. We sponsor events such as tournaments and feasts where members dress in clothing styles worn in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, and participate in activities based on the civil and martial skills of the
period. These activities recreate aspects of the life and culture of the landed nobility in Europe prior to 1600 CE. The dress, pastimes, and above all the chivalric ideals of the period serve to unify our events and activities.

For Society members, most of the world, and all of the centuries prior to the 17th, can serve as a source for personal research. However, the further you go from the core of Medieval and Renaissance Europe, the less the environment we offer will resemble what someone of your time and country would find natural or homelike. For example, you can be an Asian or African guest at a European court, but you cannot expect others to share your special interests - like any long-term visitor in a foreign land, you are the one who will have to adapt to the customs you find around you. Since members have free choice of what areas they will explore, it follows that Society branches cannot decide to specialize in a specific time and place, since that would make it hard for members there to pursue their own interests in other times and places. "

Emphasis mine.

The SCA started out as a party themed around Tolkein-influenced medieval fantasy. It then back-ended into the closest historical analog that could be found, and that was the age of knights and chivalry of England and Europe.

The SCA has always been a very, very inclusive group, probably one of the most inclusive groups I have ever known. And as such as it grew and people began to do real research about cultures of the world prior to 1600 it became obvious that it was not only not practical to view the era as a goldfish bowl of only Europe but also kind of limiting in enjoyment. So it has expanded to cover cultures from around the globe. I think that's cool. Even though it makes for highly, highly anachronistic situations as cultures from around the globe and spanning 1000 years converge at a single location such as a tournament or a feast hall, it's still interesting to see well-done personas coming together for whatever reason so that we can all learn and enjoy them.

You could make the argument that the combat conventions and philosophy remains centered in England and Europe. When we hold a tournament, for example, even though it might have warrior personas from Russia, Japan, Norway, England, France, Spain, and Italy participating, it's probably assumed that the tourney ground is someplace Europe-like. But this can only go so far. You might say that the weapons conventions will be limited to "knightly weapons" of "medieval Europe", which I suspect is not far off the mark. The problem is that our combat rules and conventions are so modernly contrived that it is hard to justify banning a "madu" for its lack of European cultural combat flair when you can get on your knees when you are hit in the leg.

Yet we cannot deny that there is a distinctly European flavor being mapped onto what we do. The madu falls sufficiently outside of that flavor to be distasteful to many. But an Indian persona from pre-1600 is as valid as a Japanese, Persian, or African one. The question, which it seems is still open for debate, is exactly what restrictions, if any, do we want to place on these "cultural visitors" during SCA combat.

Most people wouldn't have a problem with an Indian persona's armour as shown below, even if they don't like the weapon.



This problem seems to already have a solution. We already have combat venues that limit the field of weapons. Some allow archery, some do not. Some require sword and shield, others do not. Some require "great" weapons, others do not. It is a trivial thing to set weapons conditions prior to any tournament and/or melee, and it has been done often. Sometimes there is grumbling, but I think on the whole people enjoy these scenarios as it puts a unique spin on them that might not otherwise be experienced.

Steve

Maybe a stupid question, but where is the above pic from, Steve?

personally I don't see the problem - I've never fought with a madu shorter than 48". I also don't think I've ever seen one shorter than 48".

blackbow

mjaay wrote:I think it's sad, foolish and indicative of a lot of what's wrong with the society. I am very new but enjoy one on one combat with a madu more then any other style. So to that end the training I have done up leading up to this in the style is partially wasted. That for me is a huge time investment. In addition the materials I have bought and paid for are more or less lost. I am a very minor example though compared to some in my limited SCA circle. Its not like this is some flash in the pan trend that started a few weeks or months ago and is being nipped before it has time to take root. Its been around for years. Coming from the outlands we see a lot of madus, I have even heard it said it was invented here, though I have no real source beyond word of mouth. At least two of the kings I have had the honor of seeing on the throne won with a madu, and there is always at least one in the final 4. Again their training which I would assume to be a HUGE chunk of time is now moot, as with the equipment expense that went with it. And this does not even take into account the time and energy that such fighters have spent in teaching others.

To put it simply this decision took some of the enjoyment out of the game for many people, it has compromised their very valuable time and made investments in equipment worthless. And it has justified it all with the statement "The madu was not a weapon of individual combat during the SCA’s period of study, and therefore it is excluded from SCA Armored Combat." I think members deserve a great deal more respect then that given what is at stake. What went into this decision? What research is taken into account to decide what is a weapon of individual combat? Are specifics measurements, size and weight taken into account? Given this description of what is deemed acceptable will marshals have a color booklet as well as a tape measure and scale to make sure that every weapon is an exact historical match? As Alex said, I don't think the madu was the first stick that was pointy at both ends to ever be used. I just cant imagine that once upon a time there wasn't maybe a swordsman running around in battle and having just broken his shield thought "Damn, theres a nice little spear laying there, I KNOW! I'll put that in my other hand!" Or a pikeman that had his weapon broken and thought to himself. "Shit, rather then just throw this away when I pull out my sword maybe i'll keep it and see what happens." If your going to swing the "not period" bat, you better be ready to swing it all the way.

mjaay -

Spear or proken pike -/= madu.

Dump the buckler/basket hilt in the middle, use a gauntlet, and it is NOT the same.