The Armour Archive

Logan, aside from the helmet, when was this? Awful lot of kingdom tabards bouncing around these parts.

Sorry, I save dressing up as a Sith for the real Con's not Pennsic-con... Hard to police our own when we have such flagrant examples to point at and not a Darn thing gets done..

Nissan Maxima wrote:When you dudes do more to police your own I will happily tender you an apology. Hey, I am a science guy, lets do an experiment. You put on a black tunic and take off your all bling and pick one fight and fight amongst these guys. Such an experience may be enlightening.

Thorstenn wrote:Sorry, I save dressing up as a Sith for the real Con's not Pennsic-con... Hard to police our own when we have such flagrant examples to point at and not a Darn thing gets done..

Nissan Maxima wrote:When you dudes do more to police your own I will happily tender you an apology. Hey, I am a science guy, lets do an experiment. You put on a black tunic and take off your all bling and pick one fight and fight amongst these guys. Such an experience may be enlightening.

You make me sad. Not Surprised mind you. Just disappointed.

dukelogan wrote:and those have been banned on a societal level for some time now (some guy made some rule in some kingdom against it and it actually worked..).

now if you ever came back to the sca, and let us hope you don't, you might know something about your on going drivel. but until then......

logan

CTrumbore wrote:Yeah, cause football helmets, barrel plastic lorica, and kingdom tabards are straight out of a manuscript.

What? The generic football he)met looking bargrill is still very much legal, sca wide. So is plastic armor.

Let it be CT....it's just Logan being convinced his "Authenticity Standard" was anything more than buffshining a turd and calling it art.

(and queue Logan insulting me for being nothing in 4...3...2...)

authenticity is not, and never has been, part of the appearance guidelines. but you are correct to a point, it was the buffshining of a turd and calling it a start. that's what its goal was and thus far it has worked very well indeed.

logan

Gorm wrote:Let it be CT....it's just Logan being convinced his "Authenticity Standard" was anything more than buffshining a turd and calling it art.

(and queue Logan insulting me for being nothing in 4...3...2...)

sorry, I was referring to the armour. banning kingdom tabards would be awful, ive seen the sins that those cover occasionally.

regards
logan

Mike F wrote:Logan, aside from the helmet, when was this? Awful lot of kingdom tabards bouncing around these parts.

Plastic armor is banned society wide? The sca generihelm that looks nothing like any period helm is banned society wide? Really?

authenticity is not, and never has been, part of the appearance guidelines. but you are correct to a point, it was the buffshining of a turd and calling it a start. that's what its goal was and thus far it has worked very well indeed.

And frankly, since I have been in the SCA I have seen a greater effort (legislated or not) to disguise or hide modern materials. Some more successful than others. Group and peer pressure (and helping each other out) has helped quite a bit. It isn't perfect, and there will always be folks bitching "Who sets the standards for an 'attempt'.", "Hey, two towels is an 'attempt'." and "Look! So and so isn't doing it!"

As technology and techniques improve for armor and disguising modern armor, as knowledge is shared, and as folks find that looking "cool" can add a lot of fun, more people are doing it.

Even the Tuchux, who have for guys with VERY impressive kits.

Funny thing is, most of the people I run across in theards or in person complaining about it, are often A) Non-fighters bitching about fighters, and B) Pretty big offenders themselves, trying to justify their own lack of effort.


But the fact of the matter is, we (the SCA) have improved. Quickly? Eh. But steadily? Yes.

since you mentioned them and hopefully this can get back on topic.....

the tuchux who came to our event this past Saturday had improved kits over what ive seen in the past few years. one was pretty bad by our standards but he was clearly very new (not that that is an excuse, but in a different group ok).

I fought against them many times during the day. I didn't have a single issue nor did I witness any. of course this was just a handful of guys and a lot of sca folks. however, I caught one on a charge with my spear right in the cheek that sent him off in a different direction. he pressed forward and I did ask him about it (there was a lull right after the charge). he said "ehhh.... I don't think so". I said ok and then he put his hand up and walked backward to the sideline. a hold had been called and I asked him what was up. he said "well if I had to think about it that much I would rather just take it". I said if it wasn't hard enough it wasn't hard enough. he smiled and insisted that he was going to take it and did.

I talked with him after the fighting was done and he was pleasant and repeated that he felt right about calling it good. I thought it was a positive exchange and hopefully his attitude will become more of the norm.

regards
logan

Diglach Mac Cein wrote:

authenticity is not, and never has been, part of the appearance guidelines. but you are correct to a point, it was the buffshining of a turd and calling it a start. that's what its goal was and thus far it has worked very well indeed.

And frankly, since I have been in the SCA I have seen a greater effort (legislated or not) to disguise or hide modern materials. Some more successful than others. Group and peer pressure (and helping each other out) has helped quite a bit. It isn't perfect, and there will always be folks bitching "Who sets the standards for an 'attempt'.", "Hey, two towels is an 'attempt'." and "Look! So and so isn't doing it!"

As technology and techniques improve for armor and disguising modern armor, as knowledge is shared, and as folks find that looking "cool" can add a lot of fun, more people are doing it.

Even the Tuchux, who have for guys with VERY impressive kits.

Funny thing is, most of the people I run across in theards or in person complaining about it, are often A) Non-fighters bitching about fighters, and B) Pretty big offenders themselves, trying to justify their own lack of effort.


But the fact of the matter is, we (the SCA) have improved. Quickly? Eh. But steadily? Yes.

dukelogan wrote:sorry, I was referring to the armour. banning kingdom tabards would be awful, ive seen the sins that those cover occasionally.

Okie dokie, just confused. I recall horror stories of freon cans and the like cut into helmets. I'm not sure about plastic, but as I'm not sure, I'll figure you're correct. The helms, yeah, banned mostly for safety, but banned. Not a bad decision.

Honestly, it all boils down to this.

Hit the other guy really hard with the stick.

Everything else is frippery.

f

Yupper.

Luca Sogliano wrote:I find their actions woefully unbecoming of an organization based on honor

Funny thing about honor is that everyone has their own definition of it. What one person could consider an acceptable practice, another could see as being very dishonorable.

a good friend of mine told me that he came up with a huge innovation in Freon can helm safety when he cut a rectangle out of the side of a shopping cart and attached it over the ocular of his helm. my have we come a long way.......

regards
logan

Mike F wrote:

dukelogan wrote:sorry, I was referring to the armour. banning kingdom tabards would be awful, ive seen the sins that those cover occasionally.

Okie dokie, just confused. I recall horror stories of freon cans and the like cut into helmets. I'm not sure about plastic, but as I'm not sure, I'll figure you're correct. The helms, yeah, banned mostly for safety, but banned. Not a bad decision.

"Minstrel Decries Frippery"

An Armour Archive exclusive

Oh, what sad times! Even those who arrange and design fripperies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.

Ingvarr wrote:

Luca Sogliano wrote:I find their actions woefully unbecoming of an organization based on honor

Funny thing about honor is that everyone has their own definition of it. What one person could consider an acceptable practice, another could see as being very dishonorable.

Which is why I made it a statement about myself, and not an absolute.

dukelogan wrote:I caught one on a charge with my spear right in the cheek that sent him off in a different direction. he pressed forward and I did ask him about it (there was a lull right after the charge). he said "ehhh.... I don't think so". I said ok and then he put his hand up and walked backward to the sideline. a hold had been called and I asked him what was up. he said "well if I had to think about it that much I would rather just take it".

This is chivalry!
This man (be he Tuchux, Duke, or anything in between) should be commended.

I believe there were multiple factors involved in this. Bad blood on both sides and "stories" (true and not) that have been spread and shared over decades.

About three years ago, I had a Tuchux come to me (I had recently at that point become the AEthelmearc Earl Marshal) and ask if he (and one other Tuchux) could train to become marshals. That he knew there had been fighting problems in the past and was hoping if we worked together, we could start making things better.

I spent about 6 months training both of them and going to a Tuchux event myself, to see what the differences were. I had a number of my marshals help with their training, I had them come to several different events and practices, for training.

During that time, I discovered I had marshals in kingdom (or had) who were not as thorough as they should have been during authorizations. That our authorizations usually didn't cover "melee rules" and when a fighter obviously knew how to fight, they weren't asked basic rule questions. Especially, renewing fighters.

So, we've been working on improving that. Working together, we created a "checklist" of specific differences that we include in authorizations.. and remind during reauthorizations. The Tuchux marshals and senior fighters have also been reminding their fighters of the differences, before the battles.. and I've seen/heard them remind each other during the melees.

Since then, I have made 2 additional Tuchux marshals.. and we have another MIT, and several starting the process as Combat Archery MITs and Siege MITs. Several of them have made a point to come to some of our events, to help marshal.

That first year, both of them came and did a shift at Pennsic Inspection point. Last year, they did more shifts. I believe marshalling works best when you are working as part of team, working together and helping each other and sharing experience, knowledge, etc.. I have stressed this and they have all done a great job.

We have specifically tried to address concerns that have come up in the past.. and Kobar and the clan chieftains (and war commanders) have stepped up and worked with their guys to improve things on the field. Their fighters are also working on doing this.

I saw marked improvment at Blackstone and War Practice, with guys from both sides saying positive things, including how much fun they had fighting with them on the field.

Before the fighting at Blackstone and again at War Practice, I asked Duke Malcolm to speak to the fighters. To "remind" everyone (other fighters also have some of the same engagement challenges) of 3 of the major things that cause problems... and he also reminded everyone of why we are there and if you are already assuming that the other side is going to cheat, you should go ahead and leave the field. He, of course worded it much better.. and IMO the fighters got his point.

I believe it helped. There have been problems on both sides and I've seen some knights do things on the field that shocked me. I don't think any of us are in a position to safely throw rocks. We can't go back and change the past, but we can work together to improve the future.

I grew up in Atlantia. My favorite battles are the ones with the most fighters. I don't want to lose any of our fighters. As a marshal, I was not happy with several things I saw last year at Pennsic (actually at the last few Pennsics), the total lack of respect fighters were giving each other and the marshals.. I saw two curse at waterbearers for not bringing water to them, fast enough. ???

I decided last year that I would do my best to help improve things.. in my kingdom.. and hopefully things would improve and spread. Part of this, which could not have been done without their help and support, especially in their leadership.. was working with the Tuchux to improve things.

We all have stories. Some we personally witnessed. I prefer to give honorable fighters a chance to improve and make things better. At Blackstone and War Practice, I saw more talking, more good "banter" on both sides. I saw people not assuming those on the other side were dishonorable. I saw some who had made that assumption, reverse it thru the course of the day and came and told me about it. Was the fighting perfect? Nope. Is this still a work in progress.. yep.. absolutely. IMO, each and everyone of us can decide if we chose to be part of the solution.. or part of the problem. Stay in the past, not allowing your opinion to change.. or open your mind and make your own opinion about what you see at this Pennsic. I bet, if you go into it, expecting a good fight, not assuming your opponent is cheating or dishonorable.. you will be surprised.

We all have bad days. I've had some where I screwed up, I apologized (and meant it) and have done my best to not repeat that mistake. When accidents or screw ups happen.. discuss them on the field, work them out when you can.. when or if it's more serious, no matter who it is.. let the marshals know.. and we'll do our best to work with that person to fix it and/or ensure it doesn't happen again.

The only way we can make things better is by working together. All of us..

We have more Tuchux in our Kingdom.. at Blackstone and War Practice, they fought well and with honor. They proved they are working hard to follow our rules, as every SCA Authorized fighter should. Now, if all of the fighters at Pennsic would give it their best, we would have an amazing War..

I know this is long, I felt I should share what I have seen and the efforts that have been put forward, to make it better. It is harder to believe what you haven't seen. I ask that when you go to pennsic.. you take the field with an open mind, intending to have a great day fighting.

Tessa- AEthelmearc Kingdom Earl Marshal

Tessa,
Nicely done.
Cat

Duchess Tessa wrote: A lot of really great positive things, up until...

I saw two curse at waterbearers for not bringing water to them, fast enough. ???

That is so churlish and full of 'WTF'...those two should be given a strict diet of the nasty Pennsic water that will make them pee out of their butts

Not the real solution, of course, but seriously?? I guess common decency is far from common.

Yep, I agree. I thought that was horrible. I've seen a lot of fighters thank the waterbearers, over the years. but some battles, it's rare to hear a thank you. It's bad enough to be rude or disrespect a marshal, but being rude to someone giving up their time to bring you water??

I figured if I mentioned it here, maybe more people will remember to say thank you.. and treat our waterbearers nicely..

But yeah.. totally WTF moment for me..

If any of mine ever did anything like that they would get beaten up and then kicked out of the gang.

Someone did that to my water bearing crew, they may be stuck at the END of the water line.. I"m not above treating rude with Just rewards..

If I was a Marshal and saw someone do that to a Waterbearer, that person woudl get to take a battle off.

"If you're so dehydrated that you needed water faster than they got it to you, you must be having a medical issue, I'm concerned for your safety and the safety of your fellow fighters if you lose it in the middle of the battle...go sit this one out and come back when you're better hydrated, for your own safety"

And...then I'd get overruled by the MIC or the King....but oh well...there's a reason I'm not a Marshal...

Thank you, Duchess Tessa. I'm a rapier marshal in training in Atlantia, and your post is an excellent illustration of marshaling philosophy, which matches what my kingdom's rapier leaders promote.

If any of you think for one second that the Tuchux didn't learn disdain for our rules by watching those of us charged with protection of our fighting culture you are woefully ignorant of the root cause.

Where the Tuchux are concerned, we have been better at recreating the 1940s in the deep south as opposed to anything medieval.

Rodrigo Falcone

Apollonian wrote:If any of you think for one second that the Tuchux didn't learn disdain for our rules by watching those of us charged with protection of our fighting culture you are woefully ignorant of the root cause.

Where the Tuchux are concerned, we have been better at recreating the 1940s in the deep south as opposed to anything medieval.

Rodrigo Falcone

I have no idea what you mean. Really. Maybe I am slow. Could you explain your comment. This is not snark, I am really curious.

Apollonian wrote:If any of you think for one second that the Tuchux didn't learn disdain for our rules by watching those of us charged with protection of our fighting culture you are woefully ignorant of the root cause.

Where the Tuchux are concerned, we have been better at recreating the 1940s in the deep south as opposed to anything medieval.

Rodrigo Falcone

It's a little cryptic to me too, Falcone. Care to elaborate?

I volunteered to marshal for Pennsic the first time in 1996. Each year, save one very short trip, I have marshaled the field at least twice. Time and time again I have watched their complaints go unheard, and I have watched with my own eyes Knights of our society skirt justice with the help of those in charge. I've watched countless martial courts occur where the word of a Tuchux wasn't given the same weight as an SCA fighter with powerful friends. I have watched Knights point a finger and complain and then respond with the same act toward them and actually justify it because "well, they did it first."

I brought a complaint to Marshal 1 one year about a knight who literally beat a Tuchux by striking him when he was lying face down, at least five times that I witnessed. I flashed the tabard and demanded he meet me at marshal's court to speak to Marshal 1 and face me, his accuser. He never showed up. Otto and I made Marshal 1 and the "ducal court marshal" wait almost 2 hours after the woods battle for him. I found that knight on the field on Thursday and he explained Marshal 1 told him not to show. I didn't realize he was in Marshal 1's household. I was deceived by my own brothers to save their buddy.

Like Tessa stated, the Tuchux have a legitimate beef. This is only some of the stuff I have witnessed and I have only encountered them when traveling North or to war, or when Shaitan brought folks down to Carolina and lower Virgina. Think of all the other crap they have endured.

Let me publicly applaud what has occurred with Marshals and Royal Peers stepping in the gap to address the recent issues. It wasn't fun to hold the Tuchux feet to the fire over paperwork in the mid to late 90s, but we did in Atlantia and -also- we made it a point to get a marshal from their ranks authorized and work with them to solve the issues. The result was Saunooke's 3" binder with fighter cards and photo id from 3 different kingdoms. Shaitan and I laughed about that the very day we lost him.

The point: they don't need hand holding and extra care, they need partnership and an equal footing; they need to respect our rules and protocol as much as we do, but not one iota more; critical introspection across the marshallate, like Tessa has demonstrated, was the way to fix this and -not- by slapping all of the Tuchux with our biggest swinging stick.

Rodrigo Falcone

Thanks for the expanded explanation. I agree with every word you said and have witnessed exactly the same crap myself.

Nissan Maxima wrote:Thanks for the expanded explanation. I agree with every word you said and have witnessed exactly the same crap myself.

I agree, thanks Falcone, for taking the time to write that.

couldn't agree more.

Blackbow

Apollonian wrote:I volunteered to marshal for Pennsic the first time in 1996. Each year, save one very short trip, I have marshaled the field at least twice. Time and time again I have watched their complaints go unheard, and I have watched with my own eyes Knights of our society skirt justice with the help of those in charge. I've watched countless martial courts occur where the word of a Tuchux wasn't given the same weight as an SCA fighter with powerful friends. I have watched Knights point a finger and complain and then respond with the same act toward them and actually justify it because "well, they did it first."

I brought a complaint to Marshal 1 one year about a knight who literally beat a Tuchux by striking him when he was lying face down, at least five times that I witnessed. I flashed the tabard and demanded he meet me at marshal's court to speak to Marshal 1 and face me, his accuser. He never showed up. Otto and I made Marshal 1 and the "ducal court marshal" wait almost 2 hours after the woods battle for him. I found that knight on the field on Thursday and he explained Marshal 1 told him not to show. I didn't realize he was in Marshal 1's household. I was deceived by my own brothers to save their buddy.

Like Tessa stated, the Tuchux have a legitimate beef. This is only some of the stuff I have witnessed and I have only encountered them when traveling North or to war, or when Shaitan brought folks down to Carolina and lower Virgina. Think of all the other crap they have endured.

Let me publicly applaud what has occurred with Marshals and Royal Peers stepping in the gap to address the recent issues. It wasn't fun to hold the Tuchux feet to the fire over paperwork in the mid to late 90s, but we did in Atlantia and -also- we made it a point to get a marshal from their ranks authorized and work with them to solve the issues. The result was Saunooke's 3" binder with fighter cards and photo id from 3 different kingdoms. Shaitan and I laughed about that the very day we lost him.

The point: they don't need hand holding and extra care, they need partnership and an equal footing; they need to respect our rules and protocol as much as we do, but not one iota more; critical introspection across the marshallate, like Tessa has demonstrated, was the way to fix this and -not- by slapping all of the Tuchux with our biggest swinging stick.

Rodrigo Falcone

The AA spoils us to other online forums for this exact kind of mature and informed discussion.

Thanks for the write up, Falcone.