SCA rebated steel?

[Karl Helweg]

I cannot seem to find the thread about: https://www.sca.org/news/armored-combat ... GHUNXtccnI

[Hrolfr]

From my KDEM (Duke Ullr) on the Midrealm Marshals FB page from 7/13/20

"Marshals,
There were a number of points discussed and approved at this past weekends BOD meeting for inclusion at Society level. Inclusion at Society does not mandate inclusion by Kingdoms.
At this time, and until the pandemic issues are gone from our minds, the Middle Kingdom will not include the new rebated steel , plumbata, slings, or atl-atls. We have many times many issues right now, we are all stretched thin, and we are all concerned about larger things.
To be clear, The Middle Kingdom marshallate will not be adding activities to it already extensive list of activities at this time. "

[Karl Helweg]

From my KDEM (Duke Ullr) on the Midrealm Marshals FB page from 7/13/20

"Marshals,
There were a number of points discussed and approved at this past weekends BOD meeting for inclusion at Society level. Inclusion at Society does not mandate inclusion by Kingdoms.
At this time, and until the pandemic issues are gone from our minds, the Middle Kingdom will not include the new rebated steel , plumbata, slings, or atl-atls. We have many times many issues right now, we are all stretched thin, and we are all concerned about larger things.
To be clear, The Middle Kingdom marshallate will not be adding activities to it already extensive list of activities at this time. "

That brings up an interesting starting point: Do other AA members know if your kingdoms do or don't plan to try this rebated steel?

I am West and just assumed that we would try it sooner or later and our marshal reports suggest that this will not be too hard. We'll see.

My first knee jerk reaction to the SCA trying rebated steel was not favorable until I saw the tournament formats which are very similar to my much missed pas d'Armes tournaments. I was surprised how much I liked counters in the passage at arms bouts (you can forget about acknowledging and just focus on hitting). I would need a new 12ga helm and just a few other changes then some one crazy enough to hit.

[Karl Helweg]

Who all sells 12ga helms that meet these rules? I am not set on a bascinet (Beckenhaube) or great helm.....

How about rebated sword sellers?

[Tascius]

For now I'll just suggest Nadler Metal Crafts. Very reliable and tested for quality. Once shipping is back to normal he should have a larger selection available again. There are certainly other vendors though.
https://www.nadlermetalcrafts.com/

[Tascius]

In terms of helms, Ironmonger Armory has supplied helms as well as Aesir Armory

[Johann ColdIron]

That brings up an interesting starting point: Do other AA members know if your kingdoms do or don't plan to try this rebated steel?

I am West and just assumed that we would try it sooner or later and our marshal reports suggest that this will not be too hard. We'll see.

My first knee jerk reaction to the SCA trying rebated steel was not favorable until I saw the tournament formats which are very similar to my much missed pas d'Armes tournaments. I was surprised how much I liked counters in the passage at arms bouts (you can forget about acknowledging and just focus on hitting). I would need a new 12ga helm and just a few other changes then some one crazy enough to hit.

Atlantia already has a program. No one died... It was the pilot for the Society wide effort. Tascius is part of it. I've done it a few times and look forward to more once things open back up.

My basic take aways are:

The blow calling is done by judges in a counted blow format. So there is no advantage to hitting someone really hard. This is a good thing.

While you must have proper blow development and "three joints in motion" for the blow to count the weapon impact is not much different than Rattan. Just a bit crisper.

Armour matters in this game! Gear based on historic armour works. Mild steel takes a beating. Get tempered stuff if you do not want to replace or repair it frequently. Plastic is generally not a great substitute for spring steel.

When using a steel sword with a 1/8" edge profile small gaps between armour matter too.

[Adriano]

So it's like a more expensive, less accessible version of our game. Not interested.

[Scott Martin]

I'd second Craig's Stuff (Craig Nadler) - he was one of the crazies who was testing appropriate steels / tempering for BotN tournaments, and has built a fair pile of the gear used by the US team. check out his "personal" page at http://nadler.us/ since it has useful info on steel for armour, as well as tempering information (and what Rockwell hardness you can make various alloys based on the type of use - take-home is don't harden 10XX past Rc 39 if you are doing rebated steel) HACA groups are probably also useful to advise on appropriate suppliers.

There are a few other folks I'd trust for this kind of stuff - Mac, Jeff Wasson and Jiri K (sorry, I always mis-spell Jiri's last name) but you can expect to pay for the performance.

Karl, we'll have to try and get you down the next time we do a Pas d'Armes We had a solid group built in Lion's Gate (Vancouver Canada) and did ~3-5 passages a year using SCA gear, and I know a few crazies who would be up for rebated weapons. Acadamie Duello did a couple of rebated tournaments every year, the last of which happened a week before COVID shut the city down, so it may be worth touching base - my email contact info is in my profile if you want to conspire.

Scott

[Johann ColdIron]

So it's like a more expensive, less accessible version of our game. Not interested.

Its not going to be for everyone and that is OK. Some of the kit can cross over but does take a beating. Rattan and Steel both have their virtues. It has been interesting to learn how a steel sword travels and behaves in combat.

For myself it is neat because using steel swords means you incentivize wearing real armour because it works against them. As Scott mentioned this has lead to Reenactment armourers having to learn the riddle of heat treating and leading towards the production of lighter, more accurate, and more durable armour. As an armourer I have to support that.

I enjoy Rattan combat but when my goal is to fight in historically accurate armour I'd rather my opponents are too. Fighting someone in hidden lacrosse gear and a spiffy helmet is a challenge when you are wearing a 50lb kit!

[Scott Martin]

I enjoy Rattan combat but when my goal is to fight in historically accurate armour I'd rather my opponents are too. Fighting someone in hidden lacrosse gear and a spiffy helmet is a challenge when you are wearing a 50lb kit!

I'm always entertained when I compare my full plate to some of the plastic (or leather) "sport" armours and get the incredulous "But that's less than my stuff weighs" response. Certainly helped by using Stainless steel rather than mild, and my carbon steel kit is getting lighter. That said I anticipate that the Helm weight (a sallet with appropriate reinforce) is actually going to go up. I may see if I can find some black powder folks to shoot it once heat treated to add an appropriate "proof" mark, because holy **** I can't move this stuff with a hammer once it's heat treated - even the 22 ga gauntlet plates.

My target weight for the full harness (including sabatons) is 60 pounds - higher than John's target, but I'm also a bit bigger (at 6'9") so I have a bit more area to cover. I'm also building armour that I can use for HACA or other armoured combat without worrying about injury, although I will probably use butchers mail (stainless mesh with sub 2mm ring diameter) for voiders rather than something authentic like Tom's voiders.

Scott

[Johann ColdIron]

The big thing with leather and plastic is its bulk relative to its rigidity. You have to wear more padding too. I've gotten damaged being hit in the forearms and elbows with lacrosse gear augmented with 1/8. There is just too much flex. Leather you need to use sole bend and water harden if you want decent limb protection. All that bulk can have an effect on movement. Some can get away with less armour because of the way they are built. I have no such padding as I am a stick figure...

With tempered spring my kit is not really lighter than my old mild kit because the coverage is greater to defend against the thinner steel blades. Though my next arm harness I will experiment with using more .035 or .030 and only using .050 on the major plates. Cuirass is certainly heavier in 12 ga than the concealed plastic corizina... But I am here to fight in armour and learn something from it.

Helm weight will stay the same. I think we need at least a 10 lb helm to keep our brains happy. My current Lobster pot is 11 and it takes a lot to move it.

[Scott Martin]

I live in the land of "The Lost Vikings" (no, not Norse, that's more research than most of these folks are willing to do). There is a lot of wax soaked leather here, which weighs more than mild steel and is less protective... and much hidden sporting gear and pretty helmets. Therea re also folks who fight with mail over it, which I can respect, but mail isn't light.

It's always entertaining having the competitive tourney fighters engaged in a Pad d'Armes ("how do I win?") and discover that being fast and skillful won't keep you from getting hammered at the barrier, or in the "blows landed" chalenges, which is why every member of our tournament company ended up in at least 1/2 plate armour.

I've been pretty happy with my stainless 18 ga breastplate / 20 ga back, which seems appropriate for the late 15th century. Breastplates appear to stay "fairly" light up to the mid 16th and then start getting very heavy. One of the reasons that I like the "proto firearms" time period. I am moving to a separate gorget (appropriate for late rather than mid 15th century) and this seems fine in 18 Ga, even if that is a bit lighter than Wade's lovely Ausberg gorget which it is modeled on.

A lot of the arm harnesses I have looked at (many in Wade's collection) are centered on 0.030" / 0.75mm (a hair under 22 gauge) for the plates, and generally 0.040-0.050 (1-1.25mm or 18-20 ga) for the max couter thickness. This is significantly lighter than I have been running for my plates but in line for my couters, so I'm looking forward to not worrying about "dancing with Dukes" which was the only failure of my elbows (currently running 20 Ga arm harness, 18 Ga elbow assembly)

I'll probably stick with 20 ga for my leg harness plates, because they get hit a lot, but the carbon steel should reduce the amount of maintenance. I've started 16 Ga (0.062" / 1.5mm) poleyns, but may scale back to 18 Ga (0.050 / 1.25mm)

I'm a bit conflicted on greaves: Given the shape these are probably workable at 22 Ga, but I anticipate a lot of shaping, so having excess thickness will be a good thing. I'll probably go with 20 Ga Stainless since these will get muddy, and carbon steel (even when polished) loves to pick up rust.

Sabatons are 22ga stainless (see above) and I'm playing with gauntlet thicknesses right now: My current thinking is that the knuckle plate and the last hand plate should be 20 Ga (1mm / 0.040") and the rest 22 Ga (0.75mm / 0.032") but the extensive filing on the cuff edges are making me lean toward 20 Ga there as well - I may look nto chasing so that I am moving metal around instead of removing it, but thus far my only tempering crack has been on a cuff edge (on the leading edge of the wrapper, so I kept the plate) so I *really* don't want to spend 1-2 days rebuilding a cuff plate because I filed a smidge too deep.

Scott