Damascus Blades
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James the Baker
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Damascus Blades
I have been kicking around the idea of adding a few damascus blades to my inventory but know little about them other than they look very cool.I will be using them for live combat (pulling as much as possible at the last second,not choreographed) and was wondering if any of you fine folks know how Damascus stands up to regular stainless blades.Do they require any special care?Do they tend to break easier?Any input would be appreciated.
Go to:
htp://www.admiralsteel.com
and check out their page on damascus blades, and the technical information pages.
Really good!
------------------
William of Almaden
htp://www.admiralsteel.com
and check out their page on damascus blades, and the technical information pages.
Really good!
------------------
William of Almaden
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James the Baker
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- Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: Chicago,IL,USA
- Contact:
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Sean Swanberg
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- Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Champaign, Illinois
Damascus (or pattern welded)steel has no benefits in strength, edge holding, or flexibility to the appropriate steels used in sword blades.
Stainless steel is outright unnacceptable for swords blades, ESPECIALLY if you are using them against other blades!
I don't know what kind of unchoreographed fighting you dow with your weapons, but I strongly suggest excercising extreme caution when using swords made of stainless steel (or damsacus) that aren't specifically made for your purpose.
Stainless is extremely brittle and cannot withstand the stress or shock caused by blades in sword lengths, it's only acceptable for knife and dagger blades less than 20" in length. It's only good for wallhangers and decorative swords, which I pray you aren't using in any type of combat.
I've had some serious accidents caused by breaking stainless steel swords and have since learned much about swords and swordsmanship.
Stay safe and let me know if you need any information regarding which weapons and steels should be used for weapons in 'live-combat'.
-Sean
Stainless steel is outright unnacceptable for swords blades, ESPECIALLY if you are using them against other blades!
I don't know what kind of unchoreographed fighting you dow with your weapons, but I strongly suggest excercising extreme caution when using swords made of stainless steel (or damsacus) that aren't specifically made for your purpose.
Stainless is extremely brittle and cannot withstand the stress or shock caused by blades in sword lengths, it's only acceptable for knife and dagger blades less than 20" in length. It's only good for wallhangers and decorative swords, which I pray you aren't using in any type of combat.
I've had some serious accidents caused by breaking stainless steel swords and have since learned much about swords and swordsmanship.
Stay safe and let me know if you need any information regarding which weapons and steels should be used for weapons in 'live-combat'.
-Sean
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James the Baker
- Archive Member
- Posts: 774
- Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: Chicago,IL,USA
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I'm interested!I have heard many things from many people on the subject of acceptable and not acceptable materials for weapons.what would you recommend as far as swords?I was told when I was first interested in this stuff that a weapon that I had handy from Museum replicas was adequate and that is apparently some sort of stainless.I have been fighting with it quite frequently now for three and a half years with no mishaps.I have also been told that damascus holds a better edge than a comparable blade due to it's manufacture.I personally do not know.Any info shared would be appreciated.
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Sean Swanberg
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- Posts: 124
- Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Champaign, Illinois
Hi James, the most important thing to determine which sword is appropriate for you is it's intended purpose.
What you're calling live combat sounds reminescent of 'live-steel'. Often times people think of choreograpphed stage combat, or senseless blade on blade bashing when they hear of live-steel.
I have been taking (and teaching, to a small extent) historically accurate live-steel lessons from an instructor who preferred all of his students to train with 'live' blades. It doesn't in any way have anything to do with living steel blades, or magic. Simply that the weapon is live in the sense that if it were sharpened, it would perform as a real sword would in battle. Lightweight, sharp, produce minimal vibration, and could stand up to the shock of combat.
Very often you will see manufacturers or makers advertise 'battle ready' swords, and it's all marketing hype. Battle ready means nothing, and often implies low grade weapons (CAS Ibera, Deepeeka, most Indian made weapons, etc.)
For swords that will stand up to improper edge to edge combat, or routine stage combat, you may want to look at swords from Starfire or Highland steele. Sometime people refer to these as 'prop tools'or 'beaters' because they don't really have the characterisitcs of a true weapon besides a blade and a hilt. They're made real beefy and thick and will stand up to lots of abuse, but if they were sharpened, you couldn't cut much at all. The edge geometry is set up not to get dinged or knicked, not for a keen cutting edge. More like crowbars with hilts than weapons, we're talking 15 pound claymores and 8 pound longswords.
If you were trying to seriously study and practice historical swordsmanship you need a sword that handles appropriately. Proper swordsmanship involves parrying with the flat of the blade, not the edge, to save yourself a blade without needless damage. The blades are made thinner and lighter to enter the realm of realistic sword weights, and thus are more susceptible to damage when used improperly. The well recognized Del Tin company makes historically modeled swords that serve a dual purpose. Blunted, they work well for training and proper sparring, but when sharpened they cut reasonably well (some models at least....) Del Tins are considered mid-level sword quality. They're good starter weapons for serious practitioners, and often times the end product of lesser collectors. One of the main differences between these swords and beaters is that they are historically accurrate in appearance.
Another classification for swords would be 'martial arts' swords, or swords meant strictly for cutting. The beaters and Del Tins are fine for their intended purpose, but martial arts swords have only one single goal, to cut and cut well. Of all the swords these are the lightest and adher closest to historically accurate weights (single hand swords 2-2.5 pounds, longswords under 3 lbs, etc.) The edge geometry is set to a properly thinned cutting edge, just like the real weapons of old. When using propeer techniques such as parrying with the flat, you do not ahve to worry about knicking up the edge of your blade. In beginning practice it's very difficult to do everything correctly and that's why people don't buy martial arts swords and blunt them for practice. You could do needless damage to a cutting weapon, when specially made weapons will work better for the purpose of training or contact fighting. Not to mention the danger of fighting with swords literally meant to kill other people.... These will generally cost more than the other weapons because it's harder to do right, and depending on the maker may or not look historically accurate (although they do _perform_ accurately). For swords that cut like demons, are fast, flexible, durable, but don't look like museum pieces, seek out swords made by Angus Trim. For functional works of art you can look to Arms and Armor. Their swords are extremely accurate, very lighweight, and look absolutely beautiful. Not cheap however, but cannot be surpassed in their price range for loveliness and peformance.
There are custom smiths that can surpass performance and aesthetics of production swords but it's also not cheap.
I'm pretty pleased to hear that you have been fighting with a Museum Replicas sword for 3 years without mishap! MRL swords are made by a company in India named Windlass, and their swords have unfortunately slipped into a lower tier of quality. Since the MRL switchover to Windlass a few years ago their quality control has gone to hell and much of what they sell is immediately returned because it's shoddily assembled, not as advertised, or ugly (bad grinding lines, chrome flakes chipping off of hilts, helmetsbeing delievered with layers of rust, etc.) Many people have told me MRL has the capabibility to occasionally deliver a very fine sword for the money, but it doesn't seem to happen often. You could have gotten lucky and recieved a perfectly good piece, but many have not been so lucky and refuse to order from MRL again. You shouldn't worry though, you sword sounds pretty adequate to me (wish I could find my own at that price!)
What sword from MRL do you have? I do not think that they offer swords in stainless steel (except for a katana or two). Stainless certainly wouldn't have held up to three years of fighting; my stainless sword broke in an afternoon, and it was full tang with scale handles rivetted on.
Proper sword steels are high carbon and low alloy. Stainless is a high alloy steel that contains elements which inhibit staining or rusting, but weaken the steel and make it less tough. In the morning when I find the links I'll post wep pages that go into further depth on what types of steel are best for swords (they include some numbers and elements I don't remember, but don't want to guess and get wrong).
Damascus and pattern welded steels, while beautiful, don't offer any edge holding superiority. Folding and pattern welding was an attempt by smiths to take lousy metal and mix it into good steel, thus making the lousy metal stronger. The smiths of old din't fold and pattern weld metal for the look of it, they did so because it was necessary to remove impurities in the metal or mix metals to gain certain qualities (the balance between edge holding and toughness).
There are still endless amounts of Japophiles who will swear to the end that folded katana have superiority and strength to any weapon because it's folded a few thousand times. The fact is that the ancient Japanese smiths began their swords with a really terrible steel supply (iron bearing sand), and were forced to fold many times to remove the bad impurities within. Folding on it's own does absolutely nothing to make steel stronger, and with the cleaner, more readily available steel stock of today, folding has a better chance of weakening steel than strenghening it. Taking the time and effort to needlessly fold good clean steel gives the metal a chance to actually pick up impurities while hot, or lose carbon by being played with too much.
Pattern welded, or folded steel, has as much capabiity for edge holding and flexibility as any appropriate high grade tool steels (which I will try to include in full later).
I forgot to mention in addition that there are also many decorative stainless teels words abound. Marto, most anything made in Toledo, eBay, dozens of varitations of dragonhead katana.... They all have a rat-tail tang which is extremely weak and unable to withstand even the stress of being swung in the air without contact. Very dangerous, and often cheezy looking to boot.
Heh... I think that's probably enough for now. Let me know what else I can do.
-Sean
What you're calling live combat sounds reminescent of 'live-steel'. Often times people think of choreograpphed stage combat, or senseless blade on blade bashing when they hear of live-steel.
I have been taking (and teaching, to a small extent) historically accurate live-steel lessons from an instructor who preferred all of his students to train with 'live' blades. It doesn't in any way have anything to do with living steel blades, or magic. Simply that the weapon is live in the sense that if it were sharpened, it would perform as a real sword would in battle. Lightweight, sharp, produce minimal vibration, and could stand up to the shock of combat.
Very often you will see manufacturers or makers advertise 'battle ready' swords, and it's all marketing hype. Battle ready means nothing, and often implies low grade weapons (CAS Ibera, Deepeeka, most Indian made weapons, etc.)
For swords that will stand up to improper edge to edge combat, or routine stage combat, you may want to look at swords from Starfire or Highland steele. Sometime people refer to these as 'prop tools'or 'beaters' because they don't really have the characterisitcs of a true weapon besides a blade and a hilt. They're made real beefy and thick and will stand up to lots of abuse, but if they were sharpened, you couldn't cut much at all. The edge geometry is set up not to get dinged or knicked, not for a keen cutting edge. More like crowbars with hilts than weapons, we're talking 15 pound claymores and 8 pound longswords.
If you were trying to seriously study and practice historical swordsmanship you need a sword that handles appropriately. Proper swordsmanship involves parrying with the flat of the blade, not the edge, to save yourself a blade without needless damage. The blades are made thinner and lighter to enter the realm of realistic sword weights, and thus are more susceptible to damage when used improperly. The well recognized Del Tin company makes historically modeled swords that serve a dual purpose. Blunted, they work well for training and proper sparring, but when sharpened they cut reasonably well (some models at least....) Del Tins are considered mid-level sword quality. They're good starter weapons for serious practitioners, and often times the end product of lesser collectors. One of the main differences between these swords and beaters is that they are historically accurrate in appearance.
Another classification for swords would be 'martial arts' swords, or swords meant strictly for cutting. The beaters and Del Tins are fine for their intended purpose, but martial arts swords have only one single goal, to cut and cut well. Of all the swords these are the lightest and adher closest to historically accurate weights (single hand swords 2-2.5 pounds, longswords under 3 lbs, etc.) The edge geometry is set to a properly thinned cutting edge, just like the real weapons of old. When using propeer techniques such as parrying with the flat, you do not ahve to worry about knicking up the edge of your blade. In beginning practice it's very difficult to do everything correctly and that's why people don't buy martial arts swords and blunt them for practice. You could do needless damage to a cutting weapon, when specially made weapons will work better for the purpose of training or contact fighting. Not to mention the danger of fighting with swords literally meant to kill other people.... These will generally cost more than the other weapons because it's harder to do right, and depending on the maker may or not look historically accurate (although they do _perform_ accurately). For swords that cut like demons, are fast, flexible, durable, but don't look like museum pieces, seek out swords made by Angus Trim. For functional works of art you can look to Arms and Armor. Their swords are extremely accurate, very lighweight, and look absolutely beautiful. Not cheap however, but cannot be surpassed in their price range for loveliness and peformance.
There are custom smiths that can surpass performance and aesthetics of production swords but it's also not cheap.
I'm pretty pleased to hear that you have been fighting with a Museum Replicas sword for 3 years without mishap! MRL swords are made by a company in India named Windlass, and their swords have unfortunately slipped into a lower tier of quality. Since the MRL switchover to Windlass a few years ago their quality control has gone to hell and much of what they sell is immediately returned because it's shoddily assembled, not as advertised, or ugly (bad grinding lines, chrome flakes chipping off of hilts, helmetsbeing delievered with layers of rust, etc.) Many people have told me MRL has the capabibility to occasionally deliver a very fine sword for the money, but it doesn't seem to happen often. You could have gotten lucky and recieved a perfectly good piece, but many have not been so lucky and refuse to order from MRL again. You shouldn't worry though, you sword sounds pretty adequate to me (wish I could find my own at that price!)
What sword from MRL do you have? I do not think that they offer swords in stainless steel (except for a katana or two). Stainless certainly wouldn't have held up to three years of fighting; my stainless sword broke in an afternoon, and it was full tang with scale handles rivetted on.
Proper sword steels are high carbon and low alloy. Stainless is a high alloy steel that contains elements which inhibit staining or rusting, but weaken the steel and make it less tough. In the morning when I find the links I'll post wep pages that go into further depth on what types of steel are best for swords (they include some numbers and elements I don't remember, but don't want to guess and get wrong).
Damascus and pattern welded steels, while beautiful, don't offer any edge holding superiority. Folding and pattern welding was an attempt by smiths to take lousy metal and mix it into good steel, thus making the lousy metal stronger. The smiths of old din't fold and pattern weld metal for the look of it, they did so because it was necessary to remove impurities in the metal or mix metals to gain certain qualities (the balance between edge holding and toughness).
There are still endless amounts of Japophiles who will swear to the end that folded katana have superiority and strength to any weapon because it's folded a few thousand times. The fact is that the ancient Japanese smiths began their swords with a really terrible steel supply (iron bearing sand), and were forced to fold many times to remove the bad impurities within. Folding on it's own does absolutely nothing to make steel stronger, and with the cleaner, more readily available steel stock of today, folding has a better chance of weakening steel than strenghening it. Taking the time and effort to needlessly fold good clean steel gives the metal a chance to actually pick up impurities while hot, or lose carbon by being played with too much.
Pattern welded, or folded steel, has as much capabiity for edge holding and flexibility as any appropriate high grade tool steels (which I will try to include in full later).
I forgot to mention in addition that there are also many decorative stainless teels words abound. Marto, most anything made in Toledo, eBay, dozens of varitations of dragonhead katana.... They all have a rat-tail tang which is extremely weak and unable to withstand even the stress of being swung in the air without contact. Very dangerous, and often cheezy looking to boot.
Heh... I think that's probably enough for now. Let me know what else I can do.
-Sean
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James the Baker
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- Posts: 774
- Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: Chicago,IL,USA
- Contact:
Awesome!Thanks alot for the info,it is truly appreciated.Your explanations are informative and make sense they way you explained them,especially the bit about folding steel.I had often heard about steel folding and such but noone was able to explain why or how that would produce a superior blade.I honestly can't remember what they (MRL) called my sword,it was a while ago.It's a hand-and-a-half,fairly long and well balanced and weighs in at about 31/2 or so lbs..
On another note,I have heard many things about "flat or blade" parrying from several of my folks.Just from a common-sense point if nothing else I agree with you but I have known people who vehemently argue that it doesn't matter,whatever you have to do to stop the sharp pointy thing.I can't remember what argument they used offhand,but I have even known those who have argued for blade-on-blade defense.These people are all(or were) either students or trainers with the HACA group here in Chicago.Just thought i'd throw that out there.Thanks for reading my meandering ramble.
On another note,I have heard many things about "flat or blade" parrying from several of my folks.Just from a common-sense point if nothing else I agree with you but I have known people who vehemently argue that it doesn't matter,whatever you have to do to stop the sharp pointy thing.I can't remember what argument they used offhand,but I have even known those who have argued for blade-on-blade defense.These people are all(or were) either students or trainers with the HACA group here in Chicago.Just thought i'd throw that out there.Thanks for reading my meandering ramble.