Battle staff

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:13 am

What wood would be best for a battle staff? I've been training with a short staff but it is too light for combat it would just get broken so I need a hard wood that can take a fair ammount of damage be cheap enough to repalce if it does get broken, and be light enough to fight with. Is there such a wood?!?!?!

Xander

Siggy · Post by **Siggy** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:37 pm

Ash, Oak, possibly Cedar, Cherry, Maple... anything that was used in period as a shaft for a spear or polearm would work for this. Or, you could do what eastern martial artists do and use rattan.

Seriously, modern martial arts staffs are mostly made of rattan.

From the title of your post, you seem to be under the presumption that quarterstaves were used in war. I have never seen any evidence of this, and it does not seem to be a logical presumption, as there is very little that a shaft of wood can do to an armoured man without sharp-pointy-bits or hard-smashing-bits attatched.

A quarterstaff would be protection for a traveler against brigands, or a weapon for a brigand to carry, but not something a soldier would carry into combat if he could put something sharp on it. Just my 2 bits.

Siggy

Vogeljager · Post by **Vogeljager** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Siggy:
...as there is very little that a shaft of wood can do to an armoured man without sharp-pointy-bits or hard-smashing-bits attatched.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not true. Consider all the injuries suffered by SCAdians with extra-heavy armour and no intent to permanently injure.

I do agree with your statement that no soldier would carry a staff as his primary weapon when he could have one with a cutting/thrusting/smashing head.

Siggy · Post by **Siggy** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vogeljager:

Not true. Consider all the injuries suffered by SCAdians with extra-heavy armour and no intent to permanently injure.

I do agree with your statement that no soldier would carry a staff as his primary weapon when he could have one with a cutting/thrusting/smashing head.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I was still waking up when I posted that. I do stand by my statement that a quarterstaff wouldn't be carried into battle if there was any chance at all of getting a weapon with pointy/smashy bits on.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 3:07 pm

"Aye lads; it were her pointy/smashy bits what I fell in love with!"

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:59 pm

Ohhh its not for period combat really, I just worked out I'm pretty dangerous with a stick in my hand!!! It really is one of the most versitallie (sp) weapons ever, it really hurts like hell gettin hit with it, and its very good for defence. I was thinking of incorporating it into martial arts.

I was worried about oak being too heavy, ash and cherry being to soft hadn't really considered maple.

Thanks
Xander

Amalric Unomen · Post by **Amalric Unomen** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:54 am

Oak is more likely to splinter and must be well finished or moisture is a problem. Maple is dense, but seems rather heavy. Ash is tough, and fairly hard. Beech might work, it is frequently used for chair legs.

------------------

"Heads up, by God! Those are bullets - not turds!" Colonel Lepic

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 12:38 pm

judging by the last post trying to use it for any type of sparing I would sugest rattan. it will last a bit longer then most hard woods and does not splinter so when it breaks. althought iron wood may also work well that is one I have not yeat tried.

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Siggy:
[b]...as there is very little that a shaft of wood can do to an armoured man without sharp-pointy-bits or hard-smashing-bits attatched.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

then
 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vogeljager:

Not true. Consider all the injuries suffered by SCAdians with extra-heavy armour and no intent to permanently injure.

I do agree with your statement that no soldier would carry a staff as his primary weapon when he could have one with a cutting/thrusting/smashing head.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Strange, I've heard only 1 injury to date through SCA armour. It has been my experience that people get hurt when the armour fails or when they get hit on un-armoured spots...

Do you have incidents to back up your assertion? I do have several for mine.

And I agree with Siggy, why carry a stick when I can carry a stick with metal points on both ends and a crushing head?

[This message has been edited by Jean Paul de Sens (edited 12-30-2002).]

Vogeljager · Post by **Vogeljager** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 8:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jean Paul de Sens:
[b] Strange, I've heard only 1 injury to date through SCA armour. It has been my experience that people get hurt when the armour fails or when they get hit on un-armoured spots... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, many SCA injuries (in my experience) are due to ill fitting/crappy/missing armour.

However, Armour failure is what weapons are supposed to do. That's half of the engine that drove the art. (improve armour to make weapons ineffective - improve weapons to make armour ineffective - repeat)

I have seen otherwise good Armour fail under impact from blunt (rattan) weapons, as well as heard plenty of people complain of having to constantly work the dents out of armour.

All that aside, if YOU were faced with a man in armour and told to hurt him with only a heavy staff, could you? I could.

Iain (Bunny) Ruadh · Post by **Iain (Bunny) Ruadh** » Wed Jan 01, 2003 10:18 pm

Hmmm ... if you aren't going for a totally period thingie, but more actual work. I fell in love with old hickory. Had the "pleasure" of using a good hickory axe handle to break up many a bar room brawl as an Army MP (we often had them attached to the jeep/hummer as part of the "pioneering kit"). Night stick ... we don't need no stinkin' night stick!

Not sure how it'll handle in staff/pole form, but as a massed weapon it rocked!

------------------
"His troops would follow him anywhere ... but only out of curiousity!"

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:54 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vogeljager:
 True, many SCA injuries (in my experience) are due to ill fitting/crappy/missing armour.

However, Armour failure is what weapons are supposed to do. That's half of the engine that drove the art. (improve armour to make weapons ineffective - improve weapons to make armour ineffective - repeat)

I have seen otherwise good Armour fail under impact from blunt (rattan) weapons, as well as heard plenty of people complain of having to constantly work the dents out of armour.

All that aside, if YOU were faced with a man in armour and told to hurt him with only a heavy staff, could you? I could.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends on the man and what he has... what if he also has a staff? or better yet, what if he has a polearm? You gonna block that head many times with that staff? Even if he's unarmed, what if he takes that first hit or two on armored portion as he closes and starts grappling with you?

Sorry, the quarterstaff is going right up there with the English Longbox, the Japanese Katana, and other , what was the phrase, Super Ethic Weapon's (SEW's), that some hyped up person thinks can defeat "EVERYTHING".

[This message has been edited by Jean Paul de Sens (edited 01-02-2003).]

Vogeljager · Post by **Vogeljager** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 1:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jean Paul de Sens:
Depends on the man and what he has... what if he also has a staff? or better yet, what if he has a polearm? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What does the man have to do with it? All I said is that a staff is not ineffective against armour. Equipment 'A' when used on item 'B'.

Pointing out the fact that peasant with a staff VS a trained man in armour is in a VERY bad situation is beside the point.
(Me vs Duke So-and-so : I'm toast regardless of the equipment)

I think we can both agree on 2 points;
1 - A wood or rattan stave can damage or disable armour (or more importantly the man inside)
2 - An axe is a more usefull tool in this application.

As for being magical, the quarterstaff is no more or less than a piece of wood. Never said it was.

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 4:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vogeljager:
 What does the man have to do with it? All I said is that a staff is not ineffective against armour. Equipment 'A' when used on item 'B'.

Pointing out the fact that peasant with a staff VS a trained man in armour is in a VERY bad situation is beside the point.
(Me vs Duke So-and-so : I'm toast regardless of the equipment)

I think we can both agree on 2 points;
1 - A wood or rattan stave can damage or disable armour (or more importantly the man inside)
2 - An axe is a more usefull tool in this application.

As for being magical, the quarterstaff is no more or less than a piece of wood. Never said it was.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I don't agree. And to be clear, I'm thinking plate, not chain. I think a good wood stave (ash for example) can *DENT* armour, and maybe even help remove it (blowing straps through impact, stuff like that), but I don't believe that it'll disable armour nor will it be able to adequately damage the person inside of it quickly enough to prevent that person from getting to you and taking that staff away, nor will you be able to do enough crippling damage to prevent a person from adequately moving into and out of attack.

[This message has been edited by Jean Paul de Sens (edited 01-02-2003).]

Vogeljager · Post by **Vogeljager** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 10:13 am

Agreed. The best use of a staff against an armed and armoured opponent is to keep him at bay untill you can find something more usefull or run away

So back to the original question;
A staff is a tool of self-defence or non-lethal attack against an unarmed opponent. It has the added bonus of not looking overtly like a weapon, something that might be carried by a mugger, peace officer, or bouncer for occasional use, or by anyone for aid in walking and occasional defence.

Since you are not going to chew it up against armour, I would suggest that if your current staff can withstand sparring practice, thats good enough.

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vogeljager:
Agreed. The best use of a staff against an armed and armoured opponent is to keep him at bay untill you can find something more usefull or run away

So back to the original question;
A staff is a tool of self-defence or non-lethal attack against an unarmed opponent. It has the added bonus of not looking overtly like a weapon, something that might be carried by a mugger, peace officer, or bouncer for occasional use, or by anyone for aid in walking and occasional defence.

Since you are not going to chew it up against armour, I would suggest that if your current staff can withstand sparring practice, thats good enough. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

100% Agreement. Sorry for being, um, persnickety, but like I said, it sometimes gets put (usually by over-enthusiastic 12 year olds) into the Super-ethnic-weapon category.

Dagisd · Post by **Dagisd** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 10:25 am

Xander,
Where are you getting the wood you use for the staff? Are you using saplings, split timber, or are you buying sawn lumber? Sawn lumber cuts throught the wood's grain and destroys its natural integrity. If you split a small tree and keep the grain in tact, you'll find that even softer woods will hold up. Though, I'd suggest ash....it's light, but very strong.
And, if I went on about somethig you already knew....sorry.

Xander · Post by **Xander** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 6:41 pm

Not sure where I'm gonna get it from yet. Believe me my friends a stick is a great weapon. brilliant for blocking and good for attacking, you don't have to worry about where the metal point is all the time, and you can hold it in almost any grip.

Xamder

------------------
"Thats very shaky moral ground Kalten," Bevier said disapprovingly.
"I know" Kalten admitted. "That's why you have to run across the top of it so fast."

rustysickle · Post by **rustysickle** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:26 am

Would any old cut sapling dried out in the dark will do? I always wondered about this since such cut saplings are commone where I live.

Also, would diamond willow hold up well? I see such staffs made of this wood sold in new age shops...

Fenrisulv · Post by **Fenrisulv** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 10:59 am

If youre gonna use saplings then do alot of them at a time and cut the bark of in ring to cure them kinda like this crappy asci drawing

|=|=|=|=|=| = is bare wood and | is were you let the bark stay on the sapling then leave until dry and either leave the bark on or remove it

------------------
All things used making armour mail clothing can and will laugh at you many times under your career